Is there a “pre-mixed” trowelable fast solution for a garage floor?

[j0rdan]

I’m still contemplating various options for a garage floor in extreme-temp/humidity upstate NY.

Hypothetical: Let’s say you want a basic “better than what is, but not stellar” “get it done” solution. Does there not exist on the market a pre-mixed trowelable bucket of “overlay?” Like Ardex/Henry makes a 1 gallon patch: Could 10 gallons of something on this order…

https://www.amazon.com/Henry-Company-12064-Gallon-Pre-Mixed/dp/B003KREPOW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

…theoretically be used to smooth out an entire floor after a basic grinding prep, treating the “whole floor as a patch?”

Anything relatively uniform would look better than what’s there. I’m not sure I trust epoxy/polyaspartics without multiple coats and an entire consortium of scientists “weighing in” on the readiness of concrete for it in this “-20 to 100°” and 0 to 100% humidity” high fluctuation plus hot tire scenario. I feel like it’s either $1500 to do that right with all tools + tons of hours and VOC odor hell, or $350 to “do anything to it that will make it more presentable”.

 

[FJ4FUN]

Trust me, there's nothing "extreme" or special about the temps or humidity in upstate NY that would challenge any of the solutions already offered up on your previous post.

Oooops... I forgot this part "I’m not sure I trust epoxy/polyaspartics without multiple coats and an entire consortium of scientists “weighing in”

never mind, disregard everything I've said...

 

[j0rdan]

Trust me, there's nothing "extreme" or special about the temps or humidity in upstate NY that would challenge any of the solutions already offered up on your previous post.

Oooops... I forgot this part "I’m not sure I trust epoxy/polyaspartics without multiple coats and an entire consortium of scientists “weighing in”

never mind, disregard everything I've said...

Right, so you see… those products are perfect when applied by expertise.

So for a “first time” DIY situation, what options are there, really? Taking the risk on a first-time situation both monetarily and effort-wise, or finding something more point-and-click with minimal risk?

The first option is somewhat negated by the notion that it’s just too close in price to being able to hire a professional. This logically forces option 2. But then, is there an option 2 on the market that makes sense?

 

[FJ4FUN]

It's not rocket science. If you can follow basic, well presented instructions and you choose high quality materials you can achieve (or exceed) results offered by professional contractors. Typically at about half the price. It's not for everyone, some prefer professional services and that's perfectly fine. A BIG part of the DIY effort is the satisfaction derived from a job well done, this "satisfaction" cannot be packaged and sold off the shelf, it is earned and the vendors here do everything that we can to make DIYers successful.

As for "is there an option 2?" "that makes sense" I have no idea what "makes sense" means to you. Everything that I described in my response to your original post "makes sense" to me.

 

[rjacobs]

So for a “first time” DIY situation, what options are there, really?

I was a first(and only) timer when I laid down my floor coating from Legacy... Nohr-S... I dont think they sell a partial flake kit anymore only full flake. 3 coats(2 part epoxy base, color polyurea, clear polyurea). 4 years later holding up great except one small spot where I had a brake fluid leak I didnt know about. I spent about $1500 when a "professionally" applied floor was at least 3k and I got quotes higher than that....and I have read far to many horror stories of "professional" floor coatings with massive issues that it was hard for me to trust the "pro's"... If you can paint a wall with a roller, you can do your own floor coating.

 

[j0rdan]

It's not rocket science. If you can follow basic, well presented instructions and you choose high quality materials you can achieve (or exceed) results offered by professional contractors. Typically at about half the price. It's not for everyone, some prefer professional services and that's perfectly fine. A BIG part of the DIY effort is the satisfaction derived from a job well done, this "satisfaction" cannot be packaged and sold off the shelf, it is earned and the vendors here do everything that we can to make DIYers successful.

As for "is there an option 2?" "that makes sense" I have no idea what "makes sense" means to you. Everything that I described in my response to your original post "makes sense" to me.

I don’t disagree, and I appreciate your help…

While a “job well done” satisfaction is nice, and I experience it in other DIY situations, there’s a “margin for screw-up” here that seems more risky to me after watching videos on it. It’s multi-part, the concrete needs to be “right”, etc. I used a 1-part epoxy on it once that flaked quickly, even after proper prep, and I have a sour taste in my mouth from that. I spent a lot of time on it, and even got my money back for it. The risk-to-reward ratio seems too “close” to a pro installation for me beyond a certain price point.

The “option 2 that makes sense” would be for a 1-coat trowelable concrete overlay option that is basic resurfacing of the concrete that will make it look “better than” the cracked, spalled, flaked and chipped situation it is now. This would seem to be more forgivable, less risk, and more easily repairable with a ~$300 max investment risk.

 

[j0rdan]

I was a first(and only) timer when I laid down my floor coating from Legacy... Nohr-S... I dont think they sell a partial flake kit anymore only full flake. 3 coats(2 part epoxy base, color polyurea, clear polyurea). 4 years later holding up great except one small spot where I had a brake fluid leak I didnt know about. I spent about $1500 when a "professionally" applied floor was at least 3k and I got quotes higher than that....and I have read far to many horror stories of "professional" floor coatings with massive issues that it was hard for me to trust the "pro's"... If you can paint a wall with a roller, you can do your own floor coating.

Thanks… Yes, you can do your own coating if you can paint with a roller, but this also assumes the surface is right for the coating, its moisture properties are correct, etc. I’m dealing with a relatively sh*tty 45 y/o shoddy floor with multiple issues and an old 1-coat “big box” epoxy. I’m going to grind it somewhat, but I don’t necessarily trust my ability to assess its readiness for a multi-coat system and all of the elements required.

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks… Yes, you can do your own coating if you can paint with a roller, but this also assumes the surface is right for the coating, its moisture properties are correct, etc. I’m dealing with a relatively sh*tty 45 y/o shoddy floor with multiple issues and an old 1-coat “big box” epoxy. I’m going to grind it somewhat, but I don’t necessarily trust my ability to assess its readiness for a multi-coat system and all of the elements required.

Putting any coating on any surface without the right prep is a waste of time and money.

If you have moisture problems, it's all a waste of money

 

[j0rdan]

Putting any coating on any surface without the right prep is a waste of time and money.

If you have moisture problems, it's all a waste of money

Exactly… and therein is a lot of the budget, time, and effort.

 

[mike93lx]

Exactly… and therein is a lot of the budget, time, and effort.

I'm lost though. Seems like you are trying to cut corners on the prep... Or am I reading it wrong?

 

[j0rdan]

I'm lost though. Seems like you are trying to cut corners on the prep... Or am I reading it wrong?

The project brackets into one of two categories for me:

a) If it’s even possible, spend as little as possible to “get it respectably presentable” and make it worth a “DIY for neophyte” project with minimum risk

Or

b) spend 4x that, in which case does it make sense to have someone else do it because the risk of screwing it up or some other cosmic interference doesn’t warrant a 3rd option of spending more on (a)

It seems certain products require less prep than others, so it’s a question of maximizing efficiency and sensibility for (a).

 

[FJ4FUN]

For a 250sf floor using 3 gal of our IntegraCoat MPE 2k epoxy ($415.00 + shipping)

1) If you have an existing coating on there now that is compromised and flaking up then we know that you will have to grind your floor at a minimum. If it there are areas that are still well adhered you may not need to grind all the way to bare concrete, but I would prepare for a worst case scenario. Thoroughly vacuum floor.

2) Perform a simple Plastic Sheet Tape-Down test to determine if there's any moisture vapor transmission issues. You can do this 1st if you have areas an 18" x 18" area of bare concrete. Assuming no moisture evident the next morning, proceed to step 3.

3) Any cracks should be chased (V-notched/opened up slightly) and filled with a slurry of concrete dust mixed with IntegraCoat. Use the same slurry to fill divots. Allow to cure and grind/sand flat.

4) Wipe down floor using a fresh microfiber mop and denatured alcohol.

5) Prime coat. Using basic disposable graduated mixing cups, mix 85oz of Part -A resin with 43oz Part-B hardener (no tint), You will need two buckets, mix Parts A&B for 3 minutes, pour contents into a 2nd bucket and mix for another 2 minutes then pour it all out onto floor in a ribbon and roll out with 9" x 3/8"nap paint roller attached to roller extension pole. Allow to cure overnight.

6) Next day. Sand down any bubbles that may have developed during the cure. This is super easy using a cheap drywall sanding head on your roller extension pole. Wipe down entire floor with micro fiber mop / denatured alcohol. Peel the now cured primer remnants out of the two buckets used the day before and wipe buckets with denatured alcohol. Again, super easy. Pour remaining Part-A resin into a bucket, pour in 11oz of the ColorMeld tint and thoroughly mix, add remaining Part-B hardener and mix for 3 minutes, pour contents into 2nd bucket and mix for another 2 minutes then pour out all contents onto floor in a ribbon pattern. Roll out with 9" x 3/8" nap roller and extension pole. Allow to cure for 24hrs before walking on it. 48hrs before moving heavy items onto it.

Additional thoughts: This is a 100% solids, no-VOC product. 3 gal will net you +/- 19 mils finished thickness depending on absorption of prime coat. Yes, it's a 2k product and once mixed you'll have ~20 minutes to roll-out which can be done with one person but is a no-brainer, super easy with two....

Again, it's not rocket science.

 

[j0rdan]

For a 250sf floor using 3 gal of our IntegraCoat MPE 2k epoxy ($415.00 + shipping)

1) If you have an existing coating on there now that is compromised and flaking up then we know that you will have to grind your floor at a minimum. If it there are areas that are still well adhered you may not need to grind all the way to bare concrete, but I would prepare for a worst case scenario. Thoroughly vacuum floor.

2) Perform a simple Plastic Sheet Tape-Down test to determine if there's any moisture vapor transmission issues. You can do this 1st if you have areas an 18" x 18" area of bare concrete. Assuming no moisture evident the next morning, proceed to step 3.

3) Any cracks should be chased (V-notched/opened up slightly) and filled with a slurry of concrete dust mixed with IntegraCoat. Use the same slurry to fill divots. Allow to cure and grind/sand flat.

4) Wipe down floor using a fresh microfiber mop and denatured alcohol.

5) Prime coat. Using basic disposable graduated mixing cups, mix 85oz of Part -A resin with 43oz Part-B hardener (no tint), You will need two buckets, mix Parts A&B for 3 minutes, pour contents into a 2nd bucket and mix for another 2 minutes then pour it all out onto floor in a ribbon and roll out with 9" x 3/8"nap paint roller attached to roller extension pole. Allow to cure overnight.

6) Next day. Sand down any bubbles that may have developed during the cure. This is super easy using a cheap drywall sanding head on your roller extension pole. Wipe down entire floor with micro fiber mop / denatured alcohol. Peel the now cured primer remnants out of the two buckets used the day before and wipe buckets with denatured alcohol. Again, super easy. Pour remaining Part-A resin into a bucket, pour in 11oz of the ColorMeld tint and thoroughly mix, add remaining Part-B hardener and mix for 3 minutes, pour contents into 2nd bucket and mix for another 2 minutes then pour out all contents onto floor in a ribbon pattern. Roll out with 9" x 3/8" nap roller and extension pole. Allow to cure for 24hrs before walking on it. 48hrs before moving heavy items onto it.

Additional thoughts: This is a 100% solids, no-VOC product. 3 gal will net you +/- 19 mils finished thickness depending on absorption of prime coat. Yes, it's a 2k product and once mixed you'll have ~20 minutes to roll-out which can be done with one person but is a no-brainer, super easy with two....

Again, it's not rocket science.

It’s very tempting… the draw to that “super sheen” appearance. It may not be rocket science, but as a 1-person job, you still have to be “on it,” especially with the pot life. . And the surface has to be 100% legit. We’re talking $475 for that + $300 for Grinder + $125 in mask, buckets, squeegee, trowel, etc. paraphernalia. $900.

I know it’s a “world of difference” from say Behr’s 1-part epoxy, but how much of a world? Why is this more impervious to hot tire pick-up than it, or another product like Craftsman’s 100% solids epoxy, for example? What’s the odor/voc like?

 

[rjacobs]

It seems you dont want to take the advice of a pro and you just want to put down a cheap/**** product...and guess what, you will get cheap/****** results with a cheap *** product with poor prep.

My neighbor put down a cheap *** home depot epoxy floor kit with zero prep and says "hey man, looks same as yours"... within a month he had huge bare rectangles where they parked due to hot tire pickup. He asks me "yours doing that?" and I said "nope, I put down an actual quality product with proper prep of the floor prior"...

You can have a quality floor done properly or a cheap *** floor done multiple times.

I think you should just put snap together tiles down and call it a day because any coating you put down you likely wont be happy with...

 

[j0rdan]

It seems you dont want to take the advice of a pro and you just want to put down a cheap/**** product...and guess what, you will get cheap/****** results with a cheap *** product with poor prep.

My neighbor put down a cheap *** home depot epoxy floor kit with zero prep and says "hey man, looks same as yours"... within a month he had huge bare rectangles where they parked due to hot tire pickup. He asks me "yours doing that?" and I said "nope, I put down an actual quality product with proper prep of the floor prior"...

You can have a quality floor done properly or a cheap *** floor done multiple times.

I think you should just put snap together tiles down and call it a day because any coating you put down you likely wont be happy with...

Ummm… How does asking questions to pros about options at various price and effort points mean I don’t want to take their advice? Your takeaway is not based on the totality of what I’ve said. I have already decided against polishing it due to their responses? Now I’m trying to find the optimal approach as to maximizing a lower budget system vs. a higher budget system. You can prep a floor for a cementitious overlay at a certain price point vs. various levels of epoxy and polyaspartic that range in price all over the place. It is not a simple dart throw, and if you read the whole thread, I’m not looking to throw down “some cheap epoxy.”

 

[j0rdan]

It seems you dont want to take the advice of a pro and you just want to put down a cheap/**** product...and guess what, you will get cheap/****** results with a cheap *** product with poor prep.

My neighbor put down a cheap *** home depot epoxy floor kit with zero prep and says "hey man, looks same as yours"... within a month he had huge bare rectangles where they parked due to hot tire pickup. He asks me "yours doing that?" and I said "nope, I put down an actual quality product with proper prep of the floor prior"...

You can have a quality floor done properly or a cheap *** floor done multiple times.

I think you should just put snap together tiles down and call it a day because any coating you put down you likely wont be happy with...

To summarize:

Thousands put in new floors every year at various price points. There are various options for various conditions. A smart analysis of the landscape is a proper way to go, especially after having invested time and money into the same floor in the past (I’ve already encountered the same problem as your friend on the floor I’m discussing).

I have no illusions or pretenses: I don’t want to waste time and money if I feel there’s a good possibility this floor won’t take it. I’ve read pros in here say “they just don’t believe in xyz method no matter what,” others say “abc is the only way” or “xyz first, abc over it.” This site even says “Drylok paint” is well rated. I’ve read others have done tons of research, then it was a disaster, even after perfect prepping. Some requiring etching, some do not. Some grinding, some not. Some priming, some not. There are disasters at every price point, too. I want to avoid this after having encountered it once.

As I said, this project is “bracketed” into 1 of 2 categories: a lower budget (under $500) or a higher budget over $1000, in which case it may be better to hire someone, and I’m not sure yet what I’m doing, so I’m evaluating all possibilities, including cementitious overlays which may be better for this floor as the lower budget option.

Not about cutting corners, it’s about maximizing efficiency and not wasting time and/or money again on the same floor twice. The project that requires more time and money than necessary is not the sane approach.

 

[FJ4FUN]

It’s very tempting… the draw to that “super sheen” appearance. It may not be rocket science, but as a 1-person job, you still have to be “on it,” especially with the pot life. . And the surface has to be 100% legit. We’re talking $475 for that + $300 for Grinder + $125 in mask, buckets, squeegee, trowel, etc. paraphernalia. $900.

I know it’s a “world of difference” from say Behr’s 1-part epoxy, but how much of a world? Why is this more impervious to hot tire pick-up than it, or another product like Craftsman’s 100% solids epoxy, for example? What’s the odor/voc like?

I appreciate all the questions and am responding not because I hope to sell you product but more for the benefit of the group. You've managed to raise all sorts of objections/questions in one... two posts, that I face fairly frequently from various individuals so it's sorta convenient to wrap them all up here. Many of my responses will seem somewhat cliche but guess what, cliches are cliches for a reason, its because overtime they have been proven true. So lets begin...

"We’re talking $475 for that + $300 for Grinder + $125 in mask, buckets, squeegee, trowel, etc. paraphernalia. $900." Yep, with shipping it will run you right around $475 which turns out to be $1.90psf. That could be considered on the high side as far as a standard duty solid colored epoxy goes but I am constrained by the fact that we will only be offering our IntegraCoat MPE in 3 gallon kits. Offering multiple sized packaging like we do with all of our Wolverine products drives up cost overall which goes against the main purpose of the IntgraCoat offering which is to provide a budget friendly, pro-sumer product. Also, keep in mind that our 3 gallons of 100% solids (NO VOC's) will net you a theoretical 19.25mils of finished thickness. By comparison 2.8gallons of the "best" **** that HD offers will run you right around $230 per gallon and this is a 96% solids so it's closer to $240 per gal. We're at $138 per gal. and when you have ANY questions about how to prep or apply, we'll be there for you, 7 days a week with the right answers. Try THAT at HD or any number of other stores.

You already purchased the Bosch CSG15 (at $300 that's an excellent deal BTW) so why didn't you just buy from Harbor Freight at about a quarter of that price? Your $900 guestimate woulda dropped to $675 right there. As far as paraphernalia goes, you'd need:
2-3 quality roller covers $13.00
1 roller frame $15.00
2 buckets $10.00
Extension $7.50
Drill mixer $9.00
gloves $5.00
Mask $30.00
Microfiber mop $14.00
Denatured Alcohol $15.00
Hvy Duty paper towels $5.00
Tape $5.00
Pizza / Beer $35.00....
Minus the munchies you're at $129.00 but much of it will have utility beyond this project and some of it you may already have. Also, these sundry items would be needed for any coating that you chose. I didn't price in repairs because I don't know what you're going to need and, again, they would apply to any coating effort.

"I know it’s a “world of difference” from say Behr’s 1-part epoxy, but how much of a world?" I have zero experience with Craftsman or Behr but I'm guessing that like many other mass produced **** offerings they're probably refunding or replacing a lot of failed product. It's built into their margins. We're a tiny business by comparison, our products have to work 100% of the time. And, they do.... I've NEVER had an issue with Hot Tire Pickup with our Wolverine products in the 10 years since I took over the business and I don't think my brother did for the five years before then. I can assure you there have been many prep corners cut by our customers that would certainly warrant it to happen but the quality of our products affords a wide margin for error.

Pot Life: Yeah, you have to be "on it" but, quite frankly We've been doing this for 15years and I can count on three fingers the amount of times were a customer got into trouble by failing to apply 3gallons of our product within the gel timeframe and those were due to them ignoring our instruction. Wolverine offers their products in larger kit sizes but we won't sell them here because DIYers could/would get into trouble trying to apply them. IF you plan correctly i.e. have all the required tools prepped and at the ready, are aware of slab/ambient temperature ranges, are using a timer, you will not have a problem, but, if that still makes you nervous break it down into two batches. I've walked an 80year old man and his high school helper through coating a 7000sf barn with our CFLC system in the middle of a Colorado summer. Trust me, I can walk you through 250sf in NY with my eyes closed and one hand tied behind my back IF you are able to trust/follow my instruction.

Here are a couple of other cliches to wrap it up:
"IMO there's only one thing worse than an uncoated floor and that's a poorly coated floor"
"**** in, **** out"
"You can have a quality floor done properly or a cheap *** floor done multiple times." rjacobs
and another from rjacobs "I think you should just put snap together tiles down and call it a day because any coating you put down you likely wont be happy with..." or, as I like to say "some people should stick to Legos"....

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY!

 

[j0rdan]

I appreciate all the questions and am responding not because I hope to sell you product but more for the benefit of the group. You've managed to raise all sorts of objections/questions in one... two posts, that I face fairly frequently from various individuals so it's sorta convenient to wrap them all up here. Many of my responses will seem somewhat cliche but guess what, cliches are cliches for a reason, its because overtime they have been proven true. So lets begin...

"We’re talking $475 for that + $300 for Grinder + $125 in mask, buckets, squeegee, trowel, etc. paraphernalia. $900." Yep, with shipping it will run you right around $475 which turns out to be $1.90psf. That could be considered on the high side as far as a standard duty solid colored epoxy goes but I am constrained by the fact that we will only be offering our IntegraCoat MPE in 3 gallon kits. Offering multiple sized packaging like we do with all of our Wolverine products drives up cost overall which goes against the main purpose of the IntgraCoat offering which is to provide a budget friendly, pro-sumer product. Also, keep in mind that our 3 gallons of 100% solids (NO VOC's) will net you a theoretical 19.25mils of finished thickness. By comparison 2.8gallons of the "best" **** that HD offers will run you right around $230 per gallon and this is a 96% solids so it's closer to $240 per gal. We're at $138 per gal. and when you have ANY questions about how to prep or apply, we'll be there for you, 7 days a week with the right answers. Try THAT at HD or any number of other stores.

You already purchased the Bosch CSG15 (at $300 that's an excellent deal BTW) so why didn't you just buy from Harbor Freight at about a quarter of that price? Your $900 guestimate woulda dropped to $675 right there. As far as paraphernalia goes, you'd need:
2-3 quality roller covers $13.00
1 roller frame $15.00
2 buckets $10.00
Extension $7.50
Drill mixer $9.00
gloves $5.00
Mask $30.00
Microfiber mop $14.00
Denatured Alcohol $15.00
Hvy Duty paper towels $5.00
Tape $5.00
Pizza / Beer $35.00....
Minus the munchies you're at $129.00 but much of it will have utility beyond this project and some of it you may already have. Also, these sundry items would be needed for any coating that you chose. I didn't price in repairs because I don't know what you're going to need and, again, they would apply to any coating effort.

"I know it’s a “world of difference” from say Behr’s 1-part epoxy, but how much of a world?" I have zero experience with Craftsman or Behr but I'm guessing that like many other mass produced **** offerings they're probably refunding or replacing a lot of failed product. It's built into their margins. We're a tiny business by comparison, our products have to work 100% of the time. And, they do.... I've NEVER had an issue with Hot Tire Pickup with our Wolverine products in the 10 years since I took over the business and I don't think my brother did for the five years before then. I can assure you there have been many prep corners cut by our customers that would certainly warrant it to happen but the quality of our products affords a wide margin for error.

Pot Life: Yeah, you have to be "on it" but, quite frankly We've been doing this for 15years and I can count on three fingers the amount of times were a customer got into trouble by failing to apply 3gallons of our product within the gel timeframe and those were due to them ignoring our instruction. Wolverine offers their products in larger kit sizes but we won't sell them here because DIYers could/would get into trouble trying to apply them. IF you plan correctly i.e. have all the required tools prepped and at the ready, are aware of slab/ambient temperature ranges, are using a timer, you will not have a problem, but, if that still makes you nervous break it down into two batches. I've walked an 80year old man and his high school helper through coating a 7000sf barn with our CFLC system in the middle of a Colorado summer. Trust me, I can walk you through 250sf in NY with my eyes closed and one hand tied behind my back IF you are able to trust/follow my instruction.

Here are a couple of other cliches to wrap it up:
"IMO there's only one thing worse than an uncoated floor and that's a poorly coated floor"
"**** in, **** out"
"You can have a quality floor done properly or a cheap *** floor done multiple times." rjacobs
and another from rjacobs "I think you should just put snap together tiles down and call it a day because any coating you put down you likely wont be happy with..." or, as I like to say "some people should stick to Legos"....

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY!

Well I have to admit you don’t fool around with the fish flirting with your bait. . That’s refreshing. If I go this route, you’ve crowbarred yourself onto the shortlist with your persistence, articulation, and walk-through offer.

Three follow-up items while I’m “flailing on the hook” in the choppy waters, if I may:

1) Don’t follow you here: “You already purchased the Bosch CSG15 (at $300 that's an excellent deal BTW) so why didn't you just buy from Harbor Freight at about a quarter of that price? Your $900 guestimate woulda dropped to $675 right there.” Harbor Freight doesn’t seem to carry this?

2) What about color options? And how long do you expect the floor to last before it starts showing wear? And how cleanable is it?

3) Can you address/dissuade the alternative objectively: Buying a cementitious overlay. I have a crackpot, potentially “brilliant or insane” idea of co-opting 10 gallons of “highly rated” DAP Ready-Mix Concrete patch and treating the whole floor as a “large patch”. The product doesn’t “know” how much area I’m using. If it works for a few square feet, it works for more. It’s ready-mixed, no priming, it’s better than cement, trowelable, featherable, designed to stick to, level, and fill into spalled vehicular-traffic surfaces in addition to other surfaces if there’s foreign particles in there, and “a flip I could not give” about what it’s marketed for if the specs reflect theoretical do-ability and no one wants to admit it may be a silver bullet. It’s designed to outlast the cement whether 3 inches or 3000 inches. If it cracks in 2 years? I just putty some more in that crack any time, day or night, no fuss. It’s hard has nails and fortified, cement-on-steroids. Here we’re talking 50 to 200 mils average, along with evening out dips and crevices. I can even sand it and put a gloss over it at my leisure and my prep, moisture specs don’t need to be nearly as perfect, and potlife issues don’t even exist.

All things considered, objective logic seems to point to that route for me, though I’m sure won’t look as nice. Hurry, your fish is flailing!

 

[FJ4FUN]

Well I have to admit you don’t fool around with the fish flirting with your bait. . That’s refreshing. If I go this route, you’ve crowbarred yourself onto the shortlist with your persistence, articulation, and walk-through offer.

Three follow-up items while I’m “flailing on the hook” in the choppy waters, if I may:

1) Don’t follow you here: “You already purchased the Bosch CSG15 (at $300 that's an excellent deal BTW) so why didn't you just buy from Harbor Freight at about a quarter of that price? Your $900 guestimate woulda dropped to $675 right there.” Harbor Freight doesn’t seem to carry this?

2) What about color options? And how long do you expect the floor to last before it starts showing wear? And how cleanable is it?

3) Can you address/dissuade the alternative objectively: Buying a cementitious overlay. I have a crackpot, potentially “brilliant or insane” idea of co-opting 10 gallons of “highly rated” DAP Ready-Mix Concrete patch and treating the whole floor as a “large patch”. The product doesn’t “know” how much area I’m using. If it works for a few square feet, it works for more. It’s ready-mixed, no priming, it’s better than cement, trowelable, featherable, designed to stick to, level, and fill into spalled vehicular-traffic surfaces in addition to other surfaces if there’s foreign particles in there, and “a flip I could not give” about what it’s marketed for if the specs reflect theoretical do-ability and no one wants to admit it may be a silver bullet. It’s designed to outlast the cement whether 3 inches or 3000 inches. If it cracks in 2 years? I just putty some more in that crack any time, day or night, no fuss. It’s hard has nails and fortified, cement-on-steroids. Here we’re talking 50 to 200 mils average, along with evening out dips and crevices. I can even sand it and put a gloss over it at my leisure and my prep, moisture specs don’t need to be nearly as perfect, and potlife issues don’t even exist.

All things considered, objective logic seems to point to that route for me, though I’m sure won’t look as nice. Hurry, your fish is flailing!

1) You can pick up the cheapest 4.5" angle grinder / turbo cup wheel / shroud for about $90 less with coupons or, step up to a 7" setup (which is what I would do with 250sf to grind). Before you go there, this WILL accomplish the task as well as the Bosch. It might be noisier, vibrate more and prolly wouldn't last much beyond 500sf (although I've been surprised before regarding the abuse HF gear will tolerate).

2) Offered in 4 shades of Gray, Black, and a Beige. (Tier 1 colors except Bone White as seen here CFLC System). How long will it last? Well it it's not going to ever disappear, so from that perspective it will likely out last you or I. How long will it look like the 1st day you put it down? Very tough to say, if you put it down in your audio/video room and are a shoes off household... decades. If you're dragging jackstands, fabbing metal parts, have south-west facing 10" rollup doors open 6 days a week that new look won't last very long. It will maintain it's integrity i.e. chemical resistance and will stay easy to clean but it's gonna scuff. The system that I've been describing does not include a abrasion resistant clear coat. That would add another $310.00...good urethanes are spendy. On a positive note, if desired down the road just scuff it up with a floor buffer / scotchbrite pad combo and recoat or add a clear coat. Either way its gonna likely look a hell of a lot better than what you have now and/or your DAP idea. This system is not intended to be deployed into heavy duty use and abuse environments, that what our CFLC System is for but, like you pointed out there are the down and dirty big box store budget products and then the serious high performance offerings and not much in between. That's where we are pointing IntegraCoat. It can be used as a primer, body coat, and as a clear coat for situations where your using decorative flakes, want traction additive, or just like the deep gloss look. It's a multi-purpose self-leveling coating and it won't break the bank.

3) I have very little experience with this particular product, we (our principal Wolverine) will not warranty our coatings if applied over it. It can crack which may indicate poor elongation / flexural strength-modulus. I've also heard that it should not be used in cracks larger than one inch and that it is difficult to work with. I dunno, another cliche comes to mind... "if its sounds too good to be true it probably is" Wolverine sells a LOT of polymer overlay product into the industrial markets if a "Silver Bullet" existed they'd be making it.

 

[j0rdan]

1) You can pick up the cheapest 4.5" angle grinder / turbo cup wheel / shroud for about $90 less with coupons or, step up to a 7" setup (which is what I would do with 250sf to grind). Before you go there, this WILL accomplish the task as well as the Bosch. It might be noisier, vibrate more and prolly wouldn't last much beyond 500sf (although I've been surprised before regarding the abuse HF gear will tolerate).

Yep, you’re absolutely right. I saw someone using an angle grinder “on an angle” once. New to the scene, I just assumed “angle grinders” were for removing large chunks “on an angle.” So apparently Bosch’s marketing decided to fix this semantic assumption, and market it as “something different” than an “angle grinder” probably to scoop up neophytes. Meantime, it is *an angle grinder*, per how the industry uses this term, period. A 7” would actually do it better and faster than the 5” Bosch. I would have searched for angle grinders+shroud had I known. Thanks for the heads up!

2) Offered in 4 shades of Gray, Black, and a Beige. (Tier 1 colors except Bone White as seen here CFLC System). How long will it last? Well it it's not going to ever disappear, so from that perspective it will likely out last you or I. How long will it look like the 1st day you put it down? Very tough to say, if you put it down in your audio/video room and are a shoes off household... decades. If you're dragging jackstands, fabbing metal parts, have south-west facing 10" rollup doors open 6 days a week that new look won't last very long. It will maintain it's integrity i.e. chemical resistance and will stay easy to clean but it's gonna scuff. The system that I've been describing does not include a abrasion resistant clear coat. That would add another $310.00...good urethanes are spendy. On a positive note, if desired down the road just scuff it up with a floor buffer / scotchbrite pad combo and recoat or add a clear coat. Either way its gonna likely look a hell of a lot better than what you have now and/or your DAP idea.

It would be for a standard 1-car garage in a suburban town with basic garage tools, so no major traffic or abuse. I’ve read that epoxies alone generally aren’t optimal, and polyaspartic or polyurea topcoats are highly indicated. I’m guessing this wouldn’t apply to your prosumer product?

 

[FJ4FUN]

"It would be for a standard 1-car garage in a suburban town with basic garage tools, so no major traffic or abuse. I’ve read that epoxies alone generally aren’t optimal, and polyaspartic or polyurea topcoats are highly indicated. I’m guessing this wouldn’t apply to your prosumer product?"

That is correct, you have to pay for "optimal"... An "optimal" solid color floor coating system would entail our CFLC System with two coats of our Endurashield 2254. The 1st coat would be tinted using the same color as the body coat, the 2nd EnduraShield coat would be clear. It would also cost you +/-$1,200.00 but would also be the most durable coating system that money could buy. I understand that "optimal" doesn't necessarily mean "the most durable" and it entails a measure of cost/benefits analysis but that is highly subjective. Only you can define the value of "benefits".

The integraCoat line has been in service now for almost a year in commercial applications and the feedback from the professional applicators has been excellent and demand for the product continues to grow. It is this same group of applicators who initiated the development of this formulation as they too had customers who didn't need a full ceramic, 40+ mil floor coating or even a partial ceramic coating. They just needed a solid coating system that would be easy to apply ( our CFLC product is very thick and heavy and doesn't go down fast... ). You know, not everyone needs a Peterbilt, for many people a solid 1/2 ton pickup will do just fine.

If you find that it's not holding up to your abuse down the road and you feel it's not meeting your definition of "optimal" give it a quick scuff and apply a coat of urethane. That will 1) restore the high gloss finish 2) maintain that gloss by adding tremendous abrasion resistance.


EDIT: Regarding the Bosch, what really "separates" it from a traditional angle grinder is the design of the non-dominant handle. Traditional angle grinder will have this handle mounted to either side of the motor, the Bosch floor grinder has a hoop over the top making it more ergonomically comfortable for floor use. It actually makes a big difference.

 

[j0rdan]

"It would be for a standard 1-car garage in a suburban town with basic garage tools, so no major traffic or abuse. I’ve read that epoxies alone generally aren’t optimal, and polyaspartic or polyurea topcoats are highly indicated. I’m guessing this wouldn’t apply to your prosumer product?"

That is correct, you have to pay for "optimal"... An "optimal" solid color floor coating system would entail our CFLC System with two coats of our Endurashield 2254. The 1st coat would be tinted using the same color as the body coat, the 2nd EnduraShield coat would be clear. It would also cost you +/-$1,200.00 but would also be the most durable coating system that money could buy. I understand that "optimal" doesn't necessarily mean "the most durable" and it entails a measure of cost/benefits analysis but that is highly subjective. Only you can define the value of "benefits".

The integraCoat line has been in service now for almost a year in commercial applications and the feedback from the professional applicators has been excellent and demand for the product continues to grow. It is this same group of applicators who initiated the development of this formulation as they too had customers who didn't need a full ceramic, 40+ mil floor coating or even a partial ceramic coating. They just needed a solid coating system that would be easy to apply ( our CFLC product is very thick and heavy and doesn't go down fast... ). You know, not everyone needs a Peterbilt, for many people a solid 1/2 ton pickup will do just fine.

If you find that it's not holding up to your abuse down the road and you feel it's not meeting your definition of "optimal" give it a quick scuff and apply a coat of urethane. That will 1) restore the high gloss finish 2) maintain that gloss by adding tremendous abrasion resistance.


EDIT: Regarding the Bosch, what really "separates" it from a traditional angle grinder is the design of the non-dominant handle. Traditional angle grinder will have this handle mounted to either side of the motor, the Bosch floor grinder has a hoop over the top making it more ergonomically comfortable for floor use. It actually makes a big difference.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer these questions. Definitely a lot of food for thought! I will be in touch if I decide to go this route. It’s not yet a cut and dry decision, for sure!

 

[j0rdan]

One last question: what is the off-gassing/VOC level with your coatings?

 

[FJ4FUN]

"Additional thoughts: This is a 100% solids, no-VOC product."
"Also, keep in mind that our 3 gallons of 100% solids (NO VOC's)"

FYI: 100% solids means no solvents, means no VOCs, means no outgassing, means you won't have to abandon your home should it fail to cure properly. Means, no shrinkage, means no micro-tubes, means no chemical penetration, means excellent chemical resistance, means excellent stain resistance, means easy clean-up, means longevity.....

 

[j0rdan]

"Additional thoughts: This is a 100% solids, no-VOC product."
"Also, keep in mind that our 3 gallons of 100% solids (NO VOC's)"

FYI: 100% solids means no solvents, means no VOCs, means no outgassing, means you won't have to abandon your home should it fail to cure properly. Means, no shrinkage, means no micro-tubes, means no chemical penetration, means excellent chemical resistance, means excellent stain resistance, means easy clean-up, means longevity.....

Ah, right… you mentioned the VOC content. I meant just “odor/outgassing.” Speaking of too good to be true! . Kidding… but an epoxy solution with zero odor, zero VOC content——but adheres like it does! Sounds miraculous, but “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic,” especially if the in-field performance bears it out!

 

[FJ4FUN]

Oh man... heading down a rabbit hole here. I should be more specific, there are different types of VOCs some harmful, some not. Some are odorous, some aren't. Water is an odorless VOC and it is obviously not generally not considered dangerous, it becomes volatile when it evaporates going from a liquid to a vapor. Popcorn emit VOCs that are not considered harmful ( my gut might disagree.... ;-). Our 100% solids epoxies do contain VOCs just none that are deemed hazardous to health or safety. They do emit an odor during the cure process but its low, typically not considered "noxious", and fully dissipates when full cure is reached (24-36hrs). Our 95% solids EnduraShield 2254 hybrid-urethane also emits VOCs and some are classified as harmful BUT their levels fall below OSHA / CARB limits and, again, dissipate during it's cure process. Industry jargon distinguishes between harmful, regulated VOCs and benign VOCs as "Contains VOC" and "Zero VOC".

 

[zendriver]

I do Repairs, cheap vinyl concrete patch that holds up great This is on his stuff that is outdoors.

For a skim coat this directions and make sure that all the surface is grinding to have clean concrete exposed

You’re overthinking the project imo

 

[j0rdan]

I do Repairs, cheap vinyl concrete patch that holds up great This is on his stuff that is outdoors.

For a skim coat this directions and make sure that all the surface is grinding to have clean concrete exposed

You’re overthinking the project imo

I’d rather “overthink it” than “underthink it,” though. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail, as they say…which is the case of countless people in the comment sections of flooring products, who spent a lot of time and money on their project only for it to become some kind of should-have-thought-it-through-better pit in the end. Read: You can’t pretend the concrete is “ready” when it’s not, or that you can do a 2-man job effectively as 1 man on 3 slabs that might have moisture problems, are spalled, cracked, stained, badly coated and in upstate New York’s -20 to 100F° schizoid weather. I’ve already been down a bad DIY road on it, and so I want a legit approach after discussing it with those who do it on the regular.

 

[j0rdan]

Oh man... heading down a rabbit hole here. I should be more specific, there are different types of VOCs some harmful, some not. Some are odorous, some aren't. Water is an odorless VOC and it is obviously not generally not considered dangerous, it becomes volatile when it evaporates going from a liquid to a vapor. Popcorn emit VOCs that are not considered harmful ( my gut might disagree.... ;-). Our 100% solids epoxies do contain VOCs just none that are deemed hazardous to health or safety. They do emit an odor during the cure process but its low, typically not considered "noxious", and fully dissipates when full cure is reached (24-36hrs). Our 95% solids EnduraShield 2254 hybrid-urethane also emits VOCs and some are classified as harmful BUT their levels fall below OSHA / CARB limits and, again, dissipate during it's cure process. Industry jargon distinguishes between harmful, regulated VOCs and benign VOCs as "Contains VOC" and "Zero VOC".

Got it. Another “last question” : for prep, ever pressure wash at 4000 psi vs. grind? Can that prep a floor sufficiently for your product?

 

[FJ4FUN]

High pressure washing really isn't a good prep for any coating. If you're careful it can be useful when cleaning a floor as part of a prep process but not as a final step. They will leave a very inconsistent surface profile and the potential for deep gouges is highly likely as well as the possibility of driving harmful contaminants deep into the concrete pores.

 

[HotrodHR]

The project brackets into one of two categories for me:

a) If it’s even possible, spend as little as possible to “get it respectably presentable” and make it worth a “DIY for neophyte” project with minimum risk

Or

b) spend 4x that, in which case does it make sense to have someone else do it because the risk of screwing it up or some other cosmic interference doesn’t warrant a 3rd option of spending more on (a)

It seems certain products require less prep than others, so it’s a question of maximizing efficiency and sensibility for (a).

You get what you pay for… I shoot automotive paint on hotrods and classic cars. Occasionally someone will ask how much I would charge to paint their SUV or some plain Jane sedan. I tell them the can’t afford my prices, and they’ll be offended. When I quote the cost of materials alone they usually seem shocked. The next question the ask is if I could do a cheap paint job… absolutely not. A crappy paint job is just that crappy… and when their friends and family comment on the paint, they’ll throw the painter under the bus.

BTW, you’ll be hard pressed to prep and coat a floor for $300 bucks.

 

[j0rdan]

You get what you pay for… I shoot automotive paint on hotrods and classic cars. Occasionally someone will ask how much I would charge to paint their SUV or some plain Jane sedan. I tell them the can’t afford my prices, and they’ll be offended. When I quote the cost of materials alone they usually seem shocked. The next question the ask is if I could do a cheap paint job… absolutely not. A crappy paint job is just that crappy… and when their friends and family comment on the paint, they’ll throw the painter under the bus.

BTW, you’ll be hard pressed to prep and coat a floor for $300 bucks.

Agreed.

Renting a walk-behind grinder is $200 from Home Depot alone, and you need to rent a U-haul or pick-up for it if your car can’t handle it. Then you need respirator, shop-vac, etc. This is actually the big deal portion of the DIY element.

What I find interesting is something like DAP ready-mix concrete patch adheres to any profile of concrete, including stained, and is harder and longer-lasting than concrete itself, with long pot-life. Just sweep it and it adheres. But it’s marketed as a patch, at $23/gallon. No one seems to be making a “high mil” “full floor coating” that is “surface agnostic” like this, and it’s not glossy, but yet technically this could work, is sandable, and if cracks, just fill it in. You’d have to spend $400 probably on 20 gallons of it, but you skip all of the conventional grind prep required for epoxies/polyureas/paints.

 

[toolmiser]

Is the DAP a two part or single? I might need to acquire some myself.

 

[FJ4FUN]

Here's another cliche for ya, "If it sounds too good to be true it probably is". You fret about the crazy thermal excursions that you see in upstate NY and then tout about the wonders of DAP. "Just sweep and it adheres" "longer lasting than concrete itself" "Surface agnostic" "You’d have to spend $400 probably on 20 gallons of it, but you skip all of the conventional grind prep required for epoxies/polyureas/paints." all I can say is go for it... It will last maybe one winter before it all comes off in chunks. Then call DAP and you'll find out exactly why they categorize this stuff as patching material. "technically this could work"... ? Ya want to get "technical"? Think technical terms like, elongation (ASTM D638), flexural strength (ASTM D790) and flexural modulus (ASTM D790), bond strength (ASTM D4541). Finally, here's my last cliche, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink"

 

[j0rdan]

Here's another cliche for ya, "If it sounds too good to be true it probably is". You fret about the crazy thermal excursions that you see in upstate NY and then tout about the wonders of DAP. "Just sweep and it adheres" "longer lasting than concrete itself" "Surface agnostic" "You’d have to spend $400 probably on 20 gallons of it, but you skip all of the conventional grind prep required for epoxies/polyureas/paints." all I can say is go for it... It will last maybe one winter before it all comes off in chunks. Then call DAP and you'll find out exactly why they categorize this stuff as patching material. "technically this could work"... ? Ya want to get "technical"? Think technical terms like, elongation (ASTM D638), flexural strength (ASTM D790) and flexural modulus (ASTM D790), bond strength (ASTM D4541). Finally, here's my last cliche, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink"

I’m not really touting it. . It was, “what I find interesting is that a product like DAP…”. As in, “there seems to be formulations that are more forgiving to the surface profile than epoxy”….

Ideally, your product or similar is what I’d like to do… but I’m talking to Home Depot and Sunbelt, and it’s like,

“I can pretend that renting a grinder as a 1-man show from Home Depot is doable, but it’s a real stretch…. It’s $600 for the day from Sun Belt delivered/picked up. It’s $200+ otherwise from both places, but I’d need to rent a pickup truck too. My back is not great for lifting it either. Do I pretend I can use the Bosch over that many square feet as well? Probably 8 hours on my knees?”

It’s the prep stage that’s the center point of the discussion. We’re talking $500 in prep for another $600 in epoxy/coatings. And then, you better get that stage right too, which isn’t “rocket science,” but still can be blown if you’re not careful. We’re now getting closer to “hire a contractor” logic. Whereas, $300-$400 total, in a more forgiving, cementitious resurfacing product is as polymerized cement, not epoxy. So it’s more akin to “resurfacing the concrete to restore its original look”, which will not *look nearly as nice as a glossy epoxy coating*. But it’s more akin to “reductio ad absurdum” settlement vs. “Try to make the epoxy floor you want work.”

I don’t necessarily want to “go for it,” and I’m also not trying to “cut corners on prep,” I’m trying to find out what is objectively doable. We’re talking “reality-driven” defaults. I know theoretically it works quite well at 1/4th inch. I’ve used it to fill in brick. So when I say “technically,” I mean more “theoretically,” as in, if it’s working in small sections, it should work in large. But 1/16th may indeed be too thin for it.

I just found this:

Home | Versatile High-Performance Coatings®

Versatile is a manufacturer of epoxy, polyaspartic, and urethane flooring for concrete floors. 100 million sq ft of products sold. Free same-day shipping. Home to America’s strongest epoxy!

www.versatile.net

Again, not the “showroom floor” ideal of a conventional epoxy coating, but for a couple hundred, can I get the thing to just be basically smooth and level vs. what it is now. I’m not ruling out the epoxy, but I think I’d probably just hire someone to apply it if I went that route.

 

[j0rdan]

Is the DAP a two part or single? I might need to acquire some myself.

Single