Is there really any difference in engine oils?

[aka Larry]

you have a race car that you only change the oil every 2k miles?

I think our definitions of race cars and high performance engines are vastly different.
I dont even have an odometer in my race car but i change the oil after a day at the track, even if it only sees 4 or 5 passes..

+1. I run my street Mustang on the road courses for a HPDE weekend and probably drive less than 500 miles during that time. I change it before every event, which is about 4 times per year. Oil is cheap insurance.

 

[03ranger]

Yes, there is a difference. See post #15. Refined base oil is classified into groups (1-5) based upon refining methods. Then there are the additives to the oil such as: Dispersants, Detergents, Friction Modifiers, Seal Conditioners, Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate, Anti-Oxidants, Rust & Corrosion Inhibitors, Pour Point Depressants, Anti-Foams, Carrier oil, Viscosity Index Improvers and base oil used.

 

[jd_1138]

The manual on my Toyota Venza says you can double the recommended interval if you use synthetic. That tells me that synthetic lasts much longer than conventional dinosaur juice, and has twice the additive package. Nothing nutty about that, it's better oil.

Yeah it's probably perfectly OK to go 10k on synthetic oil. I'm just paranoid about engines. Oil changes are a lot cheaper than replacing or rebuilding an engine. And oil does 3 things -- lube, cools, cleans.

I get 5k changes with semi-synthetic and keep the receipts. I always get top dollar when I sell my vehicles. If I did use full synthetic, I might go to 6k-7k.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Cheapest oil I can find.

How about the re-refined stuff?

I don't think any of the re-refined stuff winds up a "regular" engine oil. Mainly because after you clean the dirt out of it you really don't know what you are starting with so you don't know how much of each of the "magic" ingredients need to be added.

 

[theoldwizard1]

yes there is a difference. it is the additive pkg.

Sure, there is a difference, but does it matter ?

In all likelihood, on a newer or well maintained engine, no.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Last I checked, Ford commended oil change interval for NORMAL driving was 7,500 miles.

The Motorcraft oil filters and semi-synthetic oil are sold at Walmart for a very reasonable price.

 

[gasman23]

These 10k intervals are nuts.

I agree, that is way too soon, 12K or more shouldn`t be a problem with modern oil and engine`s

 

[PeterT]

I buy oil when its on sale and there is either an instant coupon on the jug or mail in rebate. I buy the good stuff, Pennzoil Ultra,, Mobil 1 - synthetics. I haven't compared my sale priced/rebated oil with the dollar store oil, but I bet they aren't too far apart. I change oil 10k or once per year, and usually the year comes before the mileage.

 

[bob15]

I don't think any of the re-refined stuff winds up a "regular" engine oil. Mainly because after you clean the dirt out of it you really don't know what you are starting with so you don't know how much of each of the "magic" ingredients need to be added.

Either Walmart or K-mart used to sell the recycled oil as "regular" engine oil. All be that this was 20 years ago.

 

[ZRX61]

I know that when ZRX's were first sold in the US back in '99 there were several engine failures & in every single case the owner was using Golden Spectro oil...

 

[ZRX61]

I don't think any of the re-refined stuff winds up a "regular" engine oil. Mainly because after you clean the dirt out of it you really don't know what you are starting with so you don't know how much of each of the "magic" ingredients need to be added.

It usually get used as marine fuel.

 

[69gp]

im going to put my 2 cents in.

I will never use conventional oil again.

i am a firm believer in the synthetic oil.

Ok now for the story. I bought a brand new 95 GMC 2500 4 wheel drive PU with a Utility body. I do my own oil changes and for the first oil change I used Castrol Syntec and for every oil change after that at about 5000 miles. at about 130,000 miles I was towing my race car back from the track I was the last truck in the group of 5 heading home. It was dusk and I hit what I think was part of a spring that bounced up under my truck. Little bang but did not sound that bad. A couple of miles up the road going up a hill I lost all power. Looked down at my gauges and I had no oil pressure. Shut the engine off and coast to the side of the road. Come to find out my oil filter has a 1/2" gash in the side and pumped all the oil out. Its like WTF everyone is over the hill and IM all alone. I do carry oil and filters with me as the vehicle is a service truck. Quick change of the filter add oil and a little prayer. Turn the key and we shall see. truck fired right up with good pressure. I never had any troubles with the engine as I kept the truck and just sold it a few years ago with almost 340,000 miles on it. The total weight of the truck and trailer was about 18,000 pounds.
I believe if you use the synthetic oils long enough the coatings that the oil leaves on the surface really does work.

I also use synthetic in my race engine and the same for the transmission. Even the guy who works on my transmission cannot believe how slippery the components are even after the oil has drained down.

 

[bwringer]

Either Walmart or K-mart used to sell the recycled oil as "regular" engine oil. All be that this was 20 years ago.

I remember buying "re-refined" oil in gallon jugs from K-Fart for my rusty POS college jalopy. The stuff was just going to leak out soon anyway, and it saved me a few bucks.

Anyway, it was clearly labeled as used oil, so I don't think there was any intent to deceive anyone. It looked, felt, and smelled like regular new oil. That car finally crapped out due to epic body rust, but it ran fine.

 

[sberry]

That story is touching but what is the point? Lost oil pressure, shut engine off, fix problem, fire it up so synthetic oil is good? I believe it is but want to follow as to why.

 

[kelpaso1]

Having been a line mechanic in a lubes manufacturing facility, the only difference in motor oils of same weight, is the labeling on the bottles. The $.39/qt going to a drug store or supermarket compared to the $2.50/qt STP or CAM2 all came out of the same tank. The only engine oil that had different a additive package was Harley Davidson. This facility bottled for dozens and dozens of brands even other refineries.

I believe this along with what I read on the Blackstones Lab site. There are probably only a dozen company's who manufacture engine oil but there are dozen's of brands. I think the cheap house brands are the same as the brand names. I would just like to know what company bottles the Canadian Tire house brand. Some here are straying off topic. I was comparing ordinary motor oil brands and not synthetics vs conventional oils.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

I've attended two Joe Gibbs Racing Oil seminar conducted by JGRO engineers and Lake Speed, Jr.

I've learned that there are only two or three suppliers of the base stock for synthetic oil and only one or two suppliers of some of the really special and important additives suppliers.

So the synthetic base stock starts out basically the same, but the magic in oil are the additives packages depending on application ... which are critical specially with flat tappet racing engines and any anticorrosion additives for engine that sit for long periods of time like hot rods and collector cars.

If the engine is not subjected to high loads, then the quality of the oil probably isn't that important. But a racing engine subjected to high loads or a truck engine that consistently pulls heavy loads needs a really good oil ... and you typically get what you pay for!

If you're interested in engine oil and a JGRO seminar is available to you, its worth the time to take it in. Joe Gibbs got into the engine oil business because their NASCAR team was experiencing engine issues and failures due to oil. They studied it, spec'd their own oil, tested it on the racing engine dynos, destroyed lots of engine parts, and worked on the formula until they got it right.

Today's NASCAR pushrod engines are capable of regularly running over 10,000rpm on heavy loads and living. Part of that is valve train technology which took a HUGE leap about fifteen years ago, but a critical aspect of the high RPM and the engines living is the oil science. 25 or 30 years ago we saw lots of blown engine at the NASCAR races, today its a rare occurrence.

 

[Ign]

Id give closed loop engine management more cred than oils....

And improved machining centers/tolerances. Today's manufacturing capabilities far exceed that than when the first Chevy 350's were built en-masse. Plus things like roller cams (which Ford quietly adopted in '94, still 351W's) and DIS. Sometimes things like DIS are good - fewer moving parts, fewer wear items.

 

[Ign]

im going to put my 2 cents in.

I will never use conventional oil again.

i am a firm believer in the synthetic oil.

Ok now for the story. I bought a brand new 95 GMC 2500 4 wheel drive PU with a Utility body. I do my own oil changes and for the first oil change I used Castrol Syntec and for every oil change after that at about 5000 miles. at about 130,000 miles I was towing my race car back from the track I was the last truck in the group of 5 heading home. It was dusk and I hit what I think was part of a spring that bounced up under my truck. Little bang but did not sound that bad. A couple of miles up the road going up a hill I lost all power. Looked down at my gauges and I had no oil pressure. Shut the engine off and coast to the side of the road. Come to find out my oil filter has a 1/2" gash in the side and pumped all the oil out. Its like WTF everyone is over the hill and IM all alone. I do carry oil and filters with me as the vehicle is a service truck. Quick change of the filter add oil and a little prayer. Turn the key and we shall see. truck fired right up with good pressure. I never had any troubles with the engine as I kept the truck and just sold it a few years ago with almost 340,000 miles on it. The total weight of the truck and trailer was about 18,000 pounds.
I believe if you use the synthetic oils long enough the coatings that the oil leaves on the surface really does work.

I also use synthetic in my race engine and the same for the transmission. Even the guy who works on my transmission cannot believe how slippery the components are even after the oil has drained down.

Here
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Data...70dd5402d06bec2e-ENG newsletter July 2016.pdf

Blackstone says:
"If you’ve been with us long enough, you know we generally think that oil type doesn’t matter. Use Oil A for 5,000 miles and do a sample to check your metals, then use Oil B for the same miles and resample. Most people will find that their engine wears just the same regardless of oil brand."

and
"And honestly, from a wear standpoint, we don’t find a lot of difference between conventional and synthetic oils..."

If you had some experience with a Ford mod motor with cam phasers related to oil type, I might believe it. But on a '95 GM, no. You just got lucky or unlucky and are basing your beliefs on one experience. If that works for you, there's nothing wrong with that and I encourage you to keep doing what you're doing. You don't have the data to know that anything different would have happened under exactly the same circumstances with dino oil.

Blackstone makes it their business to compile data - LOTS of data. Their data suggests synthetic will not slow wear in your engine.

edit: furthermore I don't see Blackstone having an agenda or being in anyone's pocket. They're not making any $$ (or any friends in the industry) by suggesting people increase OCI's well beyond what conventional wisdom used to say and I've never seen them endorse a single manufacturer of oil or filters. Their only arguable angle is trying to get you to test every oil change, which for me negates the savings of buying cheap oil and pushing OCI's as long as possible (so I just test very occasionally or when I suspect a problem). OTOH if Blackstone were truly unscrupulous they'd be trying to tell everyone to change their oil every 3000 and test at the same time, reasoning that more oil changes = more testing = more revenue for them. Instead they encourage infrequent (again, by old standards) oil changes, which really can only hurt them financially.

The last test on our '05 Yukon with 10k on the oil they said was perfect, and told me to keep doing what I'm doing. So, no, 10k mile OCI's are not "crazy" as stated in this thread................or Blackstone is wrong. Take your pick, each person will believe what he or she wants.

 

[drmarkr]

Only 3 pages.....??? C'mon. You guys can do far better than this.....

 

[Coolabah]

Interesting reading on that site. Here is a snippet from that site on "Which oil should I use"

"Managers and analysts at Blackstone Laboratories often do presentations regarding the fascinating world of oil analysis. Regardless of the immediate topic, the most common question we hear is, "What type of oil should I use in my car?"

Because we're an independent laboratory, we don't recommend any specific oil brands. We always recommend using an oil grade recommended for your engine by the manufacturer and a brand that fits your budget.

You can go into any mass retailer (Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Meijer, etc.) that sells engine oil and buy a 5W/30 (or any other preferred grade) that will perform well in your engine. One of the best-kept secrets of the oil industry is that these store brands are actually the same, quality oils that are produced by the major oil companies. The only difference between these products and the major company brands is the name on the container and about 50¢ a quart."

Guess that answers my question.

I am going to throw a red herring into this. I do find it difficult to assess the differences between oils ie house brands vs known brands , etc. I hear the argument all the time that oftentimes they are produced in the same factory. This means nothing.
Problem is , in my part of the world we have a similar situation occuring with food eg canned tomatoes, frozen potato chips etc house brand vs trademark brand. Do NOT try and tell me they are all the same !!! Sometimes housebrand is OK at best , other times not worth eating. I sure as heck can tell the difference despite all the reports saying otherwise !!!Just sayin' !!!!

 

[LT5 John]

Everything you wanted to know about oil...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm

 

[sberry]

The average user does not have the expertise to tell the difference and most figure cause they changed oil they are an expert. I got a neighbor girl, changes her own oil and knows dam near everything there is to know about it.
Contrary to popular belief using something and it worked is not the same as knowing anything about it and a couple daily drivers don't make for a great amount of experience.

 

[zendriver]

I am going to throw a red herring into this. I do find it difficult to assess the differences between oils ie house brands vs known brands , etc. I hear the argument all the time that oftentimes they are produced in the same factory. This means nothing.

Problem is , in my part of the world we have a similar situation occuring with food eg canned tomatoes, frozen potato chips etc house brand vs trademark brand. Do NOT try and tell me they are all the same !!! Sometimes housebrand is OK at best , other times not worth eating. I sure as heck can tell the difference despite all the reports saying otherwise !!!Just sayin' !!!!

Frozen potato chips? ours are deep-fried. in America some Walmart store brand items are as good or better than the name brands.

It seem like the consensus of this discussion, was that not all oil brands are exactly the same product, but in as far as properly lubricating an internal combustion engine, they all seem to get the job done.

The OP ask whether it was worth it to pay nearly double in price for a "name brand" oil over a "store brand", which in some cases might be the exact same product.

Even if it isn't The difference in refining costs and "additive" costs are minimal, so they might be just charging twice as much because they know people are willing to pay it..




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[bobcatdan]

How many times have we all heard, " I put auto zones oil in my car and it locked up 50 miles later." For a DD, any modern oil is fine. Yes some are technically better, but if the cheapest oil is 100% adequate, what are you gaining? To compare in journal speak it's like buying the $100 SO tool when the $5 HF tool works fine. Now if I had a heavily builded race engine, then yes, there I'm not cheating out on oil and would run something situation specific.

 

[zendriver]

How many times have we all heard, " I put auto zones oil in my car and it locked up 50 miles later." For a DD, any modern oil is fine. Yes some are technically better, but if the cheapest oil is 100% adequate, what are you gaining? To compare in journal speak it's like buying the $100 SO tool when the $5 HF tool works fine. Now if I had a heavily builded race engine, then yes, there I'm not cheating out on oil and would run something situation specific.

For the OP, assuming he's buying 5 quarts he would be gaining around $12.50each oil change. That would be 50 bucks if he's maintaining 4 vehicles which to some people is real money.

It is a good point that a five dollar wrench and a hundred dollar one, both do the exact same thing.


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[Gray Ford]

After reading the entire thread, I would like to offer up something that has not been discussed . ( If it was ,I missed it , sorry) ..
After retiring from the fleet maintenance industry after 33 years, (journeyman mechanic for 20 years before that), the one thing that scares me about longer distance maintenance intervals is the REST of the vehicle ...Sure ...You can run 5K/7.5K/10K oil changes ... Who looks at the bottom of the vehicle between LOF services??? Brakes, steering parts, suspension, exhaust parts/tires call ALL go bad at any time .. Sure ..Most of us here have the smarts to know when something is going wrong, & tend to look into it ASAP.. What about Fred the everyday driver ?? What's that noise?? Hmmm.. I'll have them look at it during the next oil change .. ( 8K down the road?? ) .
Gee... The wheel could not have fallen off, I just had the oil changed *** miles ago ....

Most everyday drivers & people that drive company supplied cars tend to "stretch" maint intervals .. Manf says LOF at 5K ?? Ahhh.. I'm busy this week .. I'll take care of it later ...I've seen "later" turn into a 10K nightmare issue ...

My recommendation ?? Any quality "Name" oil that meets the manf requirements with quality "Name" oil filters, changed at OR BEFORE the manf suggested interval should allow ANY of today's vehicles run 150K to 200K miles with no issues ....
As hot as today's engines are designed to run, cam phasers & synchronisers controlled by oil pressure , ANY sludge or varnish is a recipe for disaster ....
Oh.... Don't even get me started on the "DEXOS" oil program from GM ..

Bob...

 

[bobcatdan]

After reading the entire thread, I would like to offer up something that has not been discussed . ( If it was ,I missed it , sorry) ..
After retiring from the fleet maintenance industry after 33 years, (journeyman mechanic for 20 years before that), the one thing that scares me about longer distance maintenance intervals is the REST of the vehicle ...Sure ...You can run 5K/7.5K/10K oil changes ... Who looks at the bottom of the vehicle between LOF services??? Brakes, steering parts, suspension, exhaust parts/tires call ALL go bad at any time .. Sure ..Most of us here have the smarts to know when something is going wrong, & tend to look into it ASAP.. What about Fred the everyday driver ?? What's that noise?? Hmmm.. I'll have them look at it during the next oil change .. ( 8K down the road?? ) .
Gee... The wheel could not have fallen off, I just had the oil changed *** miles ago ....

Most everyday drivers & people that drive company supplied cars tend to "stretch" maint intervals .. Manf says LOF at 5K ?? Ahhh.. I'm busy this week .. I'll take care of it later ...I've seen "later" turn into a 10K nightmare issue ...

My recommendation ?? Any quality "Name" oil that meets the manf requirements with quality "Name" oil filters, changed at OR BEFORE the manf suggested interval should allow ANY of today's vehicles run 150K to 200K miles with no issues ....
As hot as today's engines are designed to run, cam phasers & synchronisers controlled by oil pressure , ANY sludge or varnish is a recipe for disaster ....
Oh.... Don't even get me started on the "DEXOS" oil program from GM ..

Bob...

I 100% agree with the extended oil interval is not something I like. I stick to the old 3000 mile mark.

 

[sberry]

I am a fleet guy and can answer 1 question. We don't really skip the rest of it because we don't change the oil. New doesn't have zerks but we rotate the tires and check brakes with wheels off. Any lights, broken stuff would be repaired and parts ordered if it looked like it would need brake work next time and anything new enough to require much oil change would get it or have filter stocked for next time around. Steering ends and ball joints get looked at as well as exhaust hangers.
I have 3 or 4 now that run very extended and the cars will fall apart before oil changes add 5 miles to the service life. I have 150k combination miles on them with a total of about 6 changes, havnt done engine work to any of them, were worn out when I got them and didn't do 44 extra changes.

 

[Ign]

After reading the entire thread, I would like to offer up something that has not been discussed . ( If it was ,I missed it , sorry) ..
After retiring from the fleet maintenance industry after 33 years, (journeyman mechanic for 20 years before that), the one thing that scares me about longer distance maintenance intervals is the REST of the vehicle ...Sure ...You can run 5K/7.5K/10K oil changes ... Who looks at the bottom of the vehicle between LOF services??? Brakes, steering parts, suspension, exhaust parts/tires call ALL go bad at any time .. Sure ..Most of us here have the smarts to know when something is going wrong, & tend to look into it ASAP.. What about Fred the everyday driver ?? What's that noise?? Hmmm.. I'll have them look at it during the next oil change .. ( 8K down the road?? ) .
Gee... The wheel could not have fallen off, I just had the oil changed *** miles ago ....

Most everyday drivers & people that drive company supplied cars tend to "stretch" maint intervals .. Manf says LOF at 5K ?? Ahhh.. I'm busy this week .. I'll take care of it later ...I've seen "later" turn into a 10K nightmare issue ...

My recommendation ?? Any quality "Name" oil that meets the manf requirements with quality "Name" oil filters, changed at OR BEFORE the manf suggested interval should allow ANY of today's vehicles run 150K to 200K miles with no issues ....
As hot as today's engines are designed to run, cam phasers & synchronisers controlled by oil pressure , ANY sludge or varnish is a recipe for disaster ....
Oh.... Don't even get me started on the "DEXOS" oil program from GM ..

Bob...

I don't really know what to tell you. Seems like an argument without a solution. I'm not buying that everyone should have their oil changed prematurely just to have the rest of the vehicle inspected.

This is one of those "You're an adult, work it out!" situations.

Brakes, I listen and note performance. Tires, I look at them. With my eyes. Steering, again noise, effort required and return-to-center are just a few hints. Weird hum at speed? I jack it up and check wb's. Strange harmonics on the throttle, I look at u-joints. Clicking while turning.....we all know to look at CV's.

I don't need frequent oil changes for that. I guess that's just me.

The other EXTREME of this is every poor soccer mom I see sitting in the Grease Monkey "lounge." Those guys look to upsell EVERYTHING. Some poor woman is sitting there w a deer-in-headlights stare while they SHOVE her air filter in her face, then cabin filter, then a sample of transmission fluid. In almost all cases they're saying "it's not really bad but it's not good" and "we found some metal particles in your transmission fluid." They're careful to not push too hard but suggest that owner would be remiss if she doesn't opt for replacement of it all. That's not what preventive maintenance is supposed to be, replacing everything every time. Things wear. Worn doesn't mean worn out.

 

[Paco Pena]

For all my vehicles that use a conventional oil its whatever brand name of the right weight that is on sale. Walmart usually has a sale on Penzoil or QS at half the normal price of Canadian Tire. I don't try to go cheap on oil filters though. OEM for Toyota's or WIX.

Paco

 

[jd_1138]

For all my vehicles that use a conventional oil its whatever brand name of the right weight that is on sale. Walmart usually has a sale on Penzoil or QS at half the normal price of Canadian Tire. I don't try to go cheap on oil filters though. OEM for Toyota's or WIX.

Paco

Don't forget the API grade of the oil -- SJ, SL, etc.. SN is the current standard I think. Some of the older grades are not suitable for newer engines. It's more than weight. Granted, most current oil on the shelves will be the more current grades.

Dollar stores had a class action lawsuit because some ***** cheapskates were using the el cheapo dollar store oils in their cars, and their engines blew up. Wasn't really the stores' fault, as the oils were correctly labeled with the super old API grade (made for like 30 year old cars).

Yeah I love Wix filters. I bought a $20 oil change kit at O'Reilly's -- came with a jug of Motorcraft semi-synthetic oil and a Motorcraft filter for my Ford Focus. I looked at the Ford/Motorcraft filter, and it looked OK but not as good as a Wix/Napa Gold filter. So I sat the Motorcraft one on the shelf in the garage and used the Wix.

 

[matt_i]

Engines and last longer today not because of the oil, but because their machined to much tighter tolerances, The materials are lighter and better.

Personally I think its a variety of factors but the fuel-less cold-testing that's done on new engines before they leave the engine plant is much much more closed-loop on whether the engine is a "good one" or a "bad one" with respect to internal issues.

I also think the continuous drive to shorten the top ring land to reduce hydrocarbon emissions has reduced a lot of the unburned hydrocarbon "****" that makes its way into the oil side of the engine, basically the "ash" that fouls the oil.

Also: there's hardly an ironhead engine still in production (I don't know of any). While directionally wrong for fuel economy, its directionally correct for a cooler combustion chamber.

There are an increasing number of engines that use the oil as a hydraulic fluid for things like displacement on demand = disable valve lifters, or cam phasers. Wihout any testing, I regard the synthetic oil as a more predictable/stable fluid for these devices which have to act fast and act correctly long term.

I know next to zero about the petroleum industry but I'd guess they have also made some improvements in refining and additives.

 

[bobcatdan]

I see my engine oil is on sale. It makes Walmart super tech look expensive.