Is this a double tap?!

[lilscorpion]

Just had an inspection (selling my old house) and the inspector said I have a “double tap” in my panel. My initial reaction was “…I Fn do?!?”. Maybe I don’t know what a double tap is. I thought it was one of two things -

• Two hot wires under a single breaker screw
• Two neutral wires sharing a screw on the neutral bus

I got none of those. I’m 100% certain. I just looked and I’m certain I would have noticed over the last 14 years.

The only thing I see in the pic he took is this…is this a double tap? It’s for the AC unit inside and goes to a plug in an electrical box out by the condenser where I assume they may plug in test and cleaning equipment.

 

[mike93lx]

That's just a junction and is completely acceptable as long as the wiring and devices on both outgoing lines are sized for the breaker. He is wrong

 

[lilscorpion]

That's just a junction and is completely acceptable as long as the wiring and devices on both outgoing lines are sized for the breaker. He is wrong

Was I correct on my understanding of double taps? They must be in the neutral bus or a breaker. Is there another kind?

 

[mike93lx]

Was I correct on my understanding of double taps? They must be in the neutral bus or a breaker. Is there another kind?

At a lug/main, as well. Any time you have two wires where there should only be one.

Caveat, not a sparky, but I own linesmans and a roll of tape

 

[micromind]

The inspector, like most home inspectors, is an idiot.

There are no double taps in that panel. What he called a double tap is actually a splice. He called it a double tap in an effort to show off his immense knowledge but to anyone with actual knowledge, he simply proved that he is in fact, an idiot.

Other than sloppy workmanship, there is nothing wrong with that splice.

 

[Norcal]

That method is one way to fix a double tap. The HI's mama should have never used a rectal thermometer on them, they have brain damage.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

I am an an INACHI home inspector (note that isn't an electrical certification) and in a previous life a journeyman electrician. That inspector wanted to have a problem where there isn't one. That splice looks to be more than fine.

There are no visible double taps in your photo. "No dangerous or worrisome conditions exist within main breaker panel"


Edit: There are more than a couple of twins it looks like though. Which not a violation some people very much dislike.

 

[Jim greengo]

Yeah I don't see anything either in that picture,although I can see any neutral or grounds to tell if they're double tapped.
I love it when home inspectors try to call out double tapped breakers on Sq d brand panels.
The only breakers that are designed to be double tapped that I'm aware of.

 

[LXCam]

You need to review NEC 312.8(a). There are allowances for splicing in a load center but it can be subjective.

 

[Chefjpd]

https://imgur.com/wWxwfI3

 

[Jim greengo]

You need to review NEC 312.8(a). There are allowances for splicing in a load center but it can be subjective.

It's a big junction box is all.

 

[lilscorpion]

You need to review NEC 312.8(a). There are allowances for splicing in a load center but it can be subjective.

Interesting. Based on the 2023 change in code, it appears in #1 below that the box is too full which then means the splice a code violation. Thanks @LXCam

Also, on second glance, I think I’d need to look at what a feed thru is technically. That particular splice actually goes both to the inside of the house to the AC unit and the exits the box in a second place to go to the outlet by the condenser.

 

[PCustoms]

Interesting. Based on the 2023 change in code, it appears in #1 below that the box is too full which then means the splice a code violation. Thanks @LXCam

Also, on second glance, I think I’d need to look at what a feed thru is technically. That particular splice actually goes both to the inside of the house to the AC unit and the exits the box in a second place to go to the outlet by the condenser.

Is Colorado on the 2023 NEC?

 

[lilscorpion]

Is Colorado on the 2023 NEC?

It appears so

 

[lilscorpion]

And yet (still thinking), regardless of the codes most of you are still correct. It’s not a double tap. The inspector was incorrect enough it’s unlikely he actually knew that there was an update to codes in 2023 that was relevant. He probably got super lucky

 

[PCustoms]

And yet (still thinking), regardless of the codes most of you are still correct. It’s not a double tap. The inspector was incorrect enough it’s unlikely he actually knew that there was an update to codes in 2023 that was relevant. He probably got super lucky

My question wasn't really relevant, as I'm assuming you house is much older then the latest code adaptation. In other words, why went into effect last year isn't relevant.

How hot is the market on your area?

Has the buyer asked for any concessions?

If not, ignore him. If so, tell him they should hire a qualified electrician for a proper review, and that you reject their claims. Based on what you posted that appears to be a typical residential panel, a bit sloppy but no violations to the code at the time it was installed.

pretty sure my inspection had a disclaimer about electrical items. I was already aware of several major issues the inspector missed, so I was fine.

 

[nadogail]

I was once called to repair a "Serious" problem found by a Home Inspector in his own house, I could not find the problem he said he found until I asked him to show me how determined the problem existed. I determined that he was not using his own test equipment correctly.

I then proceeded to show him what he was doing wrong and how to correctly set up his test equipment. He was billed for a "Minor Service".

 

[LXCam]

It’s been against the rules for a long time. What was allowed was a permanent splice and a wire nut wasn’t considered one.

 

[PCustoms]

It’s been against the rules for a long time. What was allowed was a permanent splice and a wire nut wasn’t considered one.

What?

Swear I've seen a wire nut specifically recommended here multiple times.

Regardless if the market is hot, potential buyer can take it or leave it.

 

[lilscorpion]

It’s been against the rules for a long time. What was allowed was a permanent splice and a wire nut wasn’t considered one.

Is an insulated splice connector a “permanent splice”?

What?

Swear I've seen a wire nut specifically recommended here multiple times.

Regardless if the market is hot, potential buyer can take it or leave it.

The market is falling…not horrible but buyers now have leverage they’ve not had in a long time. It’s an easy fix, I just never realized it wasn’t permitted and has been in the box since I purchased the house 14 years ago. The only thing I ever fixed from the PO was to separate the bonded neutral in the sub panel.

What’s maybe more annoying is I know the HVaC company who installed the AC unit and I’m gonna bet they introduced the wire nut to the panel just before I purchased the house at which time my inspector missed it.

If nothing else, I’m learning and that’s worth something.

 

[LXCam]

What?

Swear I've seen a wire nut specifically recommended here multiple times.

Regardless if the market is hot, potential buyer can take it or leave it.

The reality is this. I’d insist the so called inspector cite the code section and if he can, prove his interpretation of it. Personally it’s compliant and safe as far as I’m concerned

The guy that did our home inspection thought himself an electrical guy and wrote up alllllll kinds of nonsense.

Problem for him was me having over four decades is this trade and 35 of them as a licensed contractor.

We settled on me adding a couple GFI’s which I should have done long ago. Fair enough.

 

[lilscorpion]

The reality is this. I’d insist the so called inspector cite the code section and if he can, prove his interpretation of it. Personally it’s compliant and safe as far as I’m concerned

The guy that did our home inspection thought himself an electrical guy and wrote up alllllll kinds of nonsense.

Problem for him was me having over four decades is this trade and 35 of them as a licensed contractor.

We settled on me adding a couple GFI’s which I should have done long ago. Fair enough.

LOL. Oops..

Is it normal for a house to be brought up to code (e.g adding GFCI’s at the kitchen counter and Washing machine) before it’s sold? They were in my inspection objection too. I’m sure if I looked I could find a mess of other things that aren’t to code.

 

[lilscorpion]

The reality is this. I’d insist the so called inspector cite the code section and if he can, prove his interpretation of it. Personally it’s compliant and safe as far as I’m concerned

The guy that did our home inspection thought himself an electrical guy and wrote up alllllll kinds of nonsense.

Problem for him was me having over four decades is this trade and 35 of them as a licensed contractor.

We settled on me adding a couple GFI’s which I should have done long ago. Fair enough.

LOL. Oops..

Is it normal for a house to be brought up to code (e.g adding GFCI’s at the kitchen counter and Washing machine) before it’s sold? They were in my inspection objection too. I’m sure if I looked I could find a mess of other things that aren’t to code.

 

[mike93lx]

You do not need to bring it up to current code. It's subject to the code that was in force when the work was done

 

[mm08822]

I have have told several sellers about the BS in the Home Inspector reports regarding current code vs compliant at the time of prior installation.

Some inspectors have their standard ***** list and add from there. The longer the list, the smarter they are!

What I did learn from realtors/sellers is doing the gfci's and simple stuff like that are low cost quick wins to reduce the size of the list to show compromise while staying away from the difficult, high dollar items. Quite a tactic!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

LOL. Oops..

Is it normal for a house to be brought up to code (e.g adding GFCI’s at the kitchen counter and Washing machine) before it’s sold? They were in my inspection objection too. I’m sure if I looked I could find a mess of other things that aren’t to code.

no not at all. and your panel isnt bound by 2023 code. its grandfathered in as long as it was installed to code when it was installed which wasnt 2023

 

[lilscorpion]

I have have told several sellers about the BS in the Home Inspector reports regarding current code vs compliant at the time of prior installation.

Some inspectors have their standard ***** list and add from there. The longer the list, the smarter they are!

What I did learn from realtors/sellers is doing the gfci's and simple stuff like that are low cost quick wins to reduce the size of the list to show compromise while staying away from the difficult, high dollar items. Quite a tactic!

Very much like this tactic. That’s kinda how I’m approaching my current situation. Seems most of the items like you’re referring to are “safety issues” and I want the buyer to be confident foremost that the house is safe. What an interesting process I have no desire to do frequently.

no not at all. and your panel isnt bound by 2023 code. its grandfathered in as long as it was installed to code when it was installed which wasnt 2023

That makes extreme sense. When would new code apply to an old box? When something is added/changed or would just the add be subject to new code? I suspect that upgrading or rewriting the whole panel would qualify.

 

[mike93lx]

Very much like this tactic. That’s kinda how I’m approaching my current situation. Seems most of the items like you’re referring to are “safety issues” and I want the buyer to be confident foremost that the house is safe. What an interesting process I have no desire to do frequently.

That makes extreme sense. When would new code apply to an old box? When something is added/changed or would just the add be subject to new code? I suspect that upgrading or rewriting the whole panel would qualify.

A replacement would absolutely qualify. Beyond that, if you aren't touching it, it's fine to leave alone, code-wise.

 

[sparky 1971]

LOL. Oops..

Is it normal for a house to be brought up to code (e.g adding GFCI’s at the kitchen counter and Washing machine) before it’s sold? They were in my inspection objection too. I’m sure if I looked I could find a mess of other things that aren’t to code.

Adding GFCI's happens all of the time just to make the buyer happy. I don't know about everywhere, but here the buyers can make an offer pending the inspection results. When the home inspector makes them feel like they will surely die the first night spent in the new house, the buyers can then ask for repairs to be made and if the sellers say no, the buyer then has the ability to back out. I've installed countless GFCI receptacles at kitchen counters and bathrooms and walked right past standard receptacles with no GFCI protection in garages, unfinished basements, laundry sinks, and exteriors because they weren't on the list. My all time favorite home inspection fail was when I sold my last house and the report said the sump pump was inoperable. It didn't have a sump pump. I put a "just in case" pit in when I built the house, but since it was a walk out basement with a French drain, I didn't need it. He also got me on the garage door reversing sensors being mounted on the ceiling about 6" apart. Nothing on the lack of GFCI protection in the garage, exterior, or 11 of the 13 kitchen counter outlets. It also had no AFCI anything because even though it was built in 2006, there was no inspection process in place, that didn't come until 2007.

 

[Norcal]

Adding GFCI's happens all of the time just to make the buyer happy. I don't know about everywhere, but here the buyers can make an offer pending the inspection results. When the home inspector makes them feel like they will surely die the first night spent in the new house, the buyers can then ask for repairs to be made and if the sellers say no, the buyer then has the ability to back out. I've installed countless GFCI receptacles at kitchen counters and bathrooms and walked right past standard receptacles with no GFCI protection in garages, unfinished basements, laundry sinks, and exteriors because they weren't on the list. My all time favorite home inspection fail was when I sold my last house and the report said the sump pump was inoperable. It didn't have a sump pump. I put a "just in case" pit in when I built the house, but since it was a walk out basement with a French drain, I didn't need it. He also got me on the garage door reversing seFCInsors being mounted on the ceiling about 6" apart. Nothing on the lack of GFCI protection in the garage, exterior, or 11 of the 13 kitchen counter outlets. It also had no AFCI anything because even though it was built in 2006, there was no inspection process in place, that didn't come until 2007.

So you are no fan of the AFCI snake oil. GFCI's are a good thing although it's getting out of hand with some of the requirements, IMHO.

 

[sparky 1971]

So you are no fan of the AFCI snake oil. GFCI's are a good thing although it's getting out of hand with some of the requirements, IMHO.

I have no problem with GFCI protection. I do have a problem with some of the required locations. Within 6' of a sink and outside is plenty.

 

[Norcal]

I have no problem with GFCI protection. I do have a problem with some of the required locations. Within 6' of a sink and outside is plenty.

Garage GFCI's were a early location because it was assumed that outdoor power would be plugged into garage receptacles, kitchen requirements came later leading to claims that codes were discriminating against women.

 

[sparky 1971]

Garage GFCI's were a early location because it was assumed that outdoor power would be plugged into garage receptacles, kitchen requirements came later leading to claims that codes were discriminating against women.

And I don't want GFCI protection in my garage or unfinished basement. The house I brought up in the thread did have GFCI protection on the house exterior, but the two on the detached garage did not.

 

[Steve W.]

And I don't want GFCI protection in my garage or unfinished basement. The house I brought up in the thread did have GFCI protection on the house exterior, but the two on the detached garage did not.

Curious.

I have thought that GFCI was required in the shop because the floor might be wet, and since it's likely concrete in contact with the ground, a potential electrical path. I installed GFCI breakers in my shop, but the only time they have tripped is when tested.

A basement floor is also likely concrete, so same conditions apply.

.

 

[Innovate1]

Sounds like the HI didn't identify exactly what they considered the wrong double tap. Home inspectors don't always know what they are talking about. I have used them on purchases because it is much easier to get leverage to get things fixed based on their report than what I, as the buyer, say. But I always do my own inspection. their thoroughness and accuracy vary greatly. I would change out to GFCI receptacles, since it is an easy thing to do, and state there are no double taps in the panel. If they push it make the HI show exactly what he has a beef about. As for wire nuts not being permanent that's total lunacy.

 

[sparky 1971]

Curious.

I have thought that GFCI was required in the shop because the floor might be wet, and since it's likely concrete in contact with the ground, a potential electrical path. I installed GFCI breakers in my shop, but the only time they have tripped is when tested.

A basement floor is also likely concrete, so same conditions apply.

.

Those places are supposed to have GFCI protection, but I choose not have it. Just like everyone is supposed to drive the speed limit, but most people choose not to.

The house I currently live in was built 45 years before a rural electric inspection was a even a ********* so what little GFCI protection I do have was installed by me. One next to the kitchen sink, one in each bathroom, and one outside where I have the pellet smoker that I forget to unplug. I did have to get a permit and inspection for my new service, but since that was all that was permitted, that was all that was looked at. Plus I know the inspector from other jobs I've had to do.

 

[Old tool guy]

Other than sloppy workmanship, there is nothing wrong with that splice.

It needs 8” of electrical tape, wrapped in a counterclockwise direction, to secure the scotchlok. Tape must be black or red.

 

[BigGarage]

It needs 8” of electrical tape, wrapped in a counterclockwise direction, to secure the scotchlok.

That requirement is for Australia only

 

[sparky 1971]

It needs 8” of electrical tape, wrapped in a counterclockwise direction, to secure the scotchlok. Tape must be black or red.

Electrical tape is for beginners. Real DIY'ers use Gorilla Tape because it's stronger and they don't want it coming apart during a tornado.

 

[mike93lx]

Electrical tape is for beginners. Real DIY'ers use Gorilla Tape because it's stronger and they don't want it coming apart during a tornado.

Liquid electrical tape FTW. Dip it and move on