Is this panel overloaded?

[Cogito Ergo Zoom]

Longtime lurker, but expert in nothing....so please excuse my low post count.

I'm comfortable doing most things DIY, except electrical. Wife wanted a new light fixture in the dining room, so I went down to my (unlabelled ) load center panel in the garage and switched off the breaker. Installation went smoothly and I was able to get everything done before the baby woke up from his nap (success!). Upon re-engagement of the breaker, I heard some 'crackling', for lack of better term and recalled that the circuit that the dining room chandelier is on also feeds the kitchen light (crappy, diffused 4' T8) and an over-the-sink Ikea special. All 3 have been flickering every so often, but I figured I had a ballast issue on the T8 and hadn't gotten around to investigating.

Long story short, I took the cover off the panel and flipped the breaker a few more times and noticed that upon re-energizing the circuit, there was some arcing going on on the neutral bus bar under one of the screws. Two neutral wires were sharing the port and the screw had backed out slightly causing a less-than-stellar connection. I flipped the main off and tightened it, and it took care of the problem. Further inspection showed that a couple more were doubled up and I think there was even one tripled up. Please excuse the crappy cell phone pics attached, but is my panel overloaded? It's 150 amp loaded to the gills with breakers and it looks to be original to the house (built in 1981, when I'm thinking Georgia codes weren't exactly strict). There's also a subpanel with four 20-amp breakers that I'm pretty sure feeds a sunroom addition that was added in the 90's. Only been in this house 2 years now, and the PO seemed to be the DIYing type based on some creative plumbing and basement framing issues I've addressed.

Is this something I should consider having a pro come out and eval? Do I need to move to a 200 amp panel?

Thanks!!

 

[Falcon67]

This amateur says it looks just a little past maxed LOL. Or maybe a lot. Yes, call a pro for a proper eval. Looks like lots of doubles in there. You'd like to stay with the standard width breaker for the panel if at all possible. Usually two neutrals or grounds is OK I think, 3 not so much. Looks like from where it's located that a 200A panel upgrade may not be all that expensive.

Our old house had a 150A panel and with careful planning I kept it down to only 3 doubles to cover misc light and plug circuits.

 

[pattenp]

The panel is full for sure, but I don't think it's overloaded as it is. I assume you've never had problems with the main breaker tripping. If you need more power then upgrading to a 200A panel is the thing to do. I have seen worse.

The sub panel looks to have issues. Looks like the neutral and grounds are bonded together. They should be separated, neutral should not be bonded the the box.

Second look at the sub, it needs a ground bar added.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

That looks like a 20 space panel (using 1" wide standard breakers) and if I counted correctly, I count 27 circuits (you count double pole breakers as two).

The label on the lid will tell you, possibly by the model number, how many circuits are allowed max. and also will tell you how many wires are allowed under one screw on the ground and neutral bars. Generally, only one neutral wire per screw, and many panels allow two grounds per screw.

I would seriously look at having this panel replaced with a full 40 space 200 amp panel (even if you have to replace the main with a 150 amp main). Fact is, most power company feeds on newer houses is 200 amp even if you don't need that much.

Charles

 

[Jagmandave]

Loose connections are not that unusual, the natural vibrations of the earth and movements in the house plus heat expansion/contraction can cause that. It's a good idea every once in a while to power down the panel and put a screw driver on every connection - loose connections can cause fires!

It's a lot of work, but it's also a good idea to do that at least once on every wall socket and light fixture in your house, for the same reason. Also, the really scary one is the bathroom fan, all that dust accumulates on the blades and motor and sometimes slows the motor down so that it over heats - easy to lose a house over one of those!

Point being, if you're going to go to the trouble to upgrade the panel, go ahead and safe-out the rest of the house too, it will probably scare you when you see what all you find, but you'll sleep better after you've checked and fixed it all.

BTW, what are those red and black wires that seems to be attached directly to the bus on the sub panel? Are those the feed wires? Do you only have 120V coming off the sub, no 240?

And why do I only see about 4 supply or hot leads coming off the breakers but about a dozen neutrals?

 

[Cogito Ergo Zoom]

That looks like a 20 space panel (using 1" wide standard breakers) and if I counted correctly, I count 27 circuits (you count double pole breakers as two).

The label on the lid will tell you, possibly by the model number, how many circuits are allowed max. and also will tell you how many wires are allowed under one screw on the ground and neutral bars. Generally, only one neutral wire per screw, and many panels allow two grounds per screw.

I would seriously look at having this panel replaced with a full 40 space 200 amp panel (even if you have to replace the main with a 150 amp main). Fact is, most power company feeds on newer houses is 200 amp even if you don't need that much.

Charles

Was planning on getting a 200amp down the road, I just wanted to verify whether or not I needed to move the priority up.

I'm in Roswell....anybody in the north Fulton area you recommend?

 

[rabidsquirrel]

And why do I only see about 4 supply or hot leads coming off the breakers but about a dozen neutrals?

Only 4 neutrals there, the flash makes some of the grounds look white.

That brings up another issue, the neutrals and the grounds shouldn't be bonded in that sub panel.

 

[Cogito Ergo Zoom]

It's a lot of work, but it's also a good idea to do that at least once on every wall socket and light fixture in your house, for the same reason. Also, the really scary one is the bathroom fan, all that dust accumulates on the blades and motor and sometimes slows the motor down so that it over heats - easy to lose a house over one of those!

Then I guess it's a good idea that the original and subsequent owners never thought to install bathroom fans. Haha. (its on my to-do list)

Point being, if you're going to go to the trouble to upgrade the panel, go ahead and safe-out the rest of the house too, it will probably scare you when you see what all you find, but you'll sleep better after you've checked and fixed it all.

I have a 6-month-old on the cusp of crawling....I have a crate of tamper-resistant outlets I was going to be installing over a very near weekend anyway.

BTW, what are those red and black wires that seems to be attached directly to the bus on the sub panel? Are those the feed wires? Do you only have 120V coming off the sub, no 240?

And why do I only see about 4 supply or hot leads coming off the breakers but about a dozen neutrals?

The red and black wires go from the main breaker (see middle pic) to the subpanel right next to it. I *think* it feeds the sunroom addition which only has 2 overhead fan lights, a track light, some outlets, but there is a 240v PTAC HVAC unit in there....but again, I haven't traced any wires and both panels are unmarked. :banghead:

 

[1grnlwn]

The red wire is the 2nd leg of the sub panel, its 220 V. Good idea to tighten the neuts in the panel. Panel is probably ok , but you should explore costs for an upgrade. I would not remove every device in your house to tighten screws you will create more trouble than you will fix.

 

[Aceman]

What I would do first is verify the panel can take twins and in those particular spaces like Charles mentioned. If that's OK, I would add 1-2 ground bars in the main panel to catch all the ground wires and free up enough spaces to have ONE NEUTRAL in each hole like it's supposed to be.

I would also add a ground bar to the sub and seperate the neutrals and grounds.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

And why do I only see about 4 supply or hot leads coming off the breakers but about a dozen neutrals?

I count four breakers, each with one black wire (hot), four white wires on the bar (neutrals) four bare wires on the bar (grounds), a large (6 gauge?) black, red and white wires supplying the panel, and a large bare ground sandwiched in with the large white neutral on the lug on the LH end of the bar.

Need to install a ground bar screwed directly to the inside of the sub panel (the holes are probably already there for doing this (subpanels do not come with ground bars, you have to buy them separately) and then you can move the four bare grounds and the heavy bare ground supply over to the new ground bar.

I think that is the same panel I used at my Air Compressor, it looks like it, two breakers and a space and two more breakers, and the insides look the same. I had to add a ground bar to it.

Charles

 

[Norcal]

Besides the screwed up/ hacked wiring in the 4 circuit subpanel, the panel is a Siemens / ITE w/ GE breakers.

 

[paranoid56]

i am no pro but i wanted to see what they say.
but are you allowed to feed a sub panel from the hot side of the main breaker? as it sits now, that sub panel isnt "fused" correct? i thought a subpanel would need to be fed from a breaker

 

[1grnlwn]

i am no pro but i wanted to see what they say.
but are you allowed to feed a sub panel from the hot side of the main breaker? as it sits now, that sub panel isnt "fused" correct? i thought a subpanel would need to be fed from a breaker

Good eye you are right. Probably time for a new service.

 

[Greatbear]

You could tidy up that main panel a bit by moving all the grounds to a separate ground buss bar installed to the right of the main, then move each neutral to its own screw. This will help the reliability of your setup. Make sure the main panel is bonded and add a bonding wire from the neutral buss to the ground buss for extra safety.

In your sub panel, fit a ground buss bar and move all the grounds to it, remove the bonding screw and move your ground wire from the feed to the ground buss bar.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

i am no pro but i wanted to see what they say.
but are you allowed to feed a sub panel from the hot side of the main breaker? as it sits now, that sub panel isnt "fused" correct? i thought a subpanel would need to be fed from a breaker

Good catch, you are correct, I had not noticed and apparently no one else either, the feeds for the subpanel are double tapped off the incoming power to the main breaker, meaning, as you stated, they have no breaker protection what-so-ever. All the more reason to replace the panel with a larger one, and just do away with the sub altogether.

Charles

 

[Norcal]

i am no pro but i wanted to see what they say.
but are you allowed to feed a sub panel from the hot side of the main breaker? as it sits now, that sub panel isnt "fused" correct? i thought a subpanel would need to be fed from a breaker

Good catch, there is no overcurrent protection on the line side of the main, so besides no way to disconnect it, a fault would have no way of clearing, & the lugs of the main are only rated for 1 conductor. Very unsafe installation.

 

[pattenp]

Very good eye you have there paranoid56 with catching the unprotected feed to the sub. I didn't see the trees for the forest.

 

[Cogito Ergo Zoom]

i am no pro but i wanted to see what they say.
but are you allowed to feed a sub panel from the hot side of the main breaker? as it sits now, that sub panel isnt "fused" correct? i thought a subpanel would need to be fed from a breaker

Good catch! I saw that when I had the cover off but forgot to ask in my original post.

Thanks for all the input everyone!

 

[ack65dart]

And the main panel has to many wires running in the same hole. You should only have one wire per hole. not two or three. I would get a bigger main panel. You should have a least 5 or so slots u open. And buy one of these http://www.smarthome.com/4860/Leviton-51120-1-Whole-House-Surge-Suppressor-Surge-Protector/p.aspx

 

[rabidsquirrel]

And the main panel has to many wires running in the same hole. You should only have one wire per hole. not two or three.

Depends on the connector used, size of the cable, and what the manufacturer says.