Is this "shill bidding"?

[The Rusty Gear]

I posed the question on ebay support, with this answer so far.

No, it's not true. No one can see the bidder's max except the bidder. And eBay's "you must bid X amount next" has nothing to do with the current high bidder's maximum bid. It only has to do with the showing high bid.

Please tell your friend that bidding in small amounts is not called shill bidding. It's called nibble bidding and is completely harmless (ineffective, but not a crime). It is how most new eBayers bid. It is certainly not a felony, as shilling is. Your friend should read up on how eBay works before he "educates" anyone else.

True, he can not "see" my maximum bid, but per my previous post (#40) he can DEDUCE it quite easily.

How did you phrase your question in ebay support?

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Just wondering WTF is up with this crazy bidding and how they magically stopped 78 cents short of my maximum bid . . . . . . I don't think I'm that lucky . . .

Item number:180358414150
Bidder Bid Amount Bid Time
miket450( 44) US $36.78 25-May-09 16:35:21 EDT
r***0( 23) US $36.00 25-May-09 16:59:00 EDT
r***0( 23) US $34.00 25-May-09 16:58:55 EDT
r***0( 23) US $32.00 25-May-09 16:58:49 EDT
r***0( 23) US $30.00 25-May-09 16:58:46 EDT
r***0( 23) US $28.00 25-May-09 16:58:44 EDT
r***0( 23) US $26.00 25-May-09 16:58:42 EDT
r***0( 23) US $24.50 25-May-09 16:58:38 EDT
r***0( 23) US $23.50 25-May-09 16:58:34 EDT
r***0( 23) US $22.50 25-May-09 16:58:32 EDT
r***0( 23) US $21.50 25-May-09 16:58:30 EDT
r***0( 23) US $20.50 25-May-09 16:58:29 EDT
r***0( 23) US $19.50 25-May-09 16:58:26 EDT
r***0( 23) US $18.50 25-May-09 16:58:23 EDT
r***0( 23) US $17.50 25-May-09 16:58:18 EDT
u***n( 117) US $15.99 25-May-09 09:35:23 EDT
r***0( 23) US $15.00 24-May-09 19:24:56 EDT
r***f( 734) US $12.00 23-May-09 15:26:39 EDT
8***l( 85) US $11.99 22-May-09 08:21:15 EDT
r***f( 734) US $10.00 23-May-09 15:26:26 EDT
d***i( 22) US $3.99 22-May-09 17:49:44 EDT
e***u( 239) US $1.00 22-May-09 00:42:51 EDT
Starting Price US $0.99 18-May-09 17:00:00 EDT

This looks like a shill bot to me and somehow the eBay return has telegraphed your max amount to the bot- serving to drive up the price to the advantage of the seller. However, a quick look did not find similar occurrences by this same seller in other auctions.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

ABSOLUTELY.

Take a look at the last few bids.

When he bid $32, he would be loosing and the "highest bid" is now $33.
When he bid $34, he would be loosing and the "highest bid" is now $35.
Then he bid $36, he would be loosing BUT the "highest bid" is now $36.78 (Not $37 as bid increments dictate)
UREKA! he's found *my* maximum bid!!!! ie the bid increment is $1, but the bid is only raised $.78 because that is my max bid. . ..

Yeah -- but look at $15.00 and then $15.99

 

[The Rusty Gear]

This looks like a shill bot to me and somehow the eBay return has telegraphed your max amount to the bot- serving to drive up the price to the advantage of the seller. However, a quick look did not find similar occurrences by this same seller in other auctions.

Maybe I was his first

Or maybe a random drive-by shilling by someone testing their bot totally unrelated to the seller.

Who knows? I'm inclicned to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, but if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck . . .

 

[The Rusty Gear]

Yeah -- but look at $15.00 and then $15.99

Under $25 the min bid increment is $.50

Here is the list with the automatic bids:
miket450( 44 ) US $18.00 25-May-09 16:35:21 EDT auto
r***0( 23) US $17.50 25-May-09 16:58:18 EDT
miket450( 44 ) US $16.49 25-May-09 16:35:21 EDT auto
u***n( 117) US $15.99 25-May-09 09:35:23 EDT
u***n( 117 ) US $15.50 25-May-09 09:35:23 EDT auto
r***0( 23) US $15.00 24-May-09 19:24:56 EDT
r***0( 23 ) US $12.50 24-May-09 19:24:56 EDT auto
r***f( 734) US $12.00 23-May-09 15:26:39 EDT


Sooooo r***f puts in a bid at $12
Shill put in bid at $15 max, and is winning at $12.50
u***n puts in a max nid of $15.99
ebay autobids shill to $15 (max which does not show as an auto )
ebay autobids u***n o $15.50 who is wining
I come in and put my max bid in at $36.78
Not sure how the next step works, but it looks like ebay autobids u***n's max of $15.99 then
ebay autobids me 50 cents more and I start winning at $16.49 ??? Shill comes in and bids $17.50
ebay auto bids me to $18 (50 cent increment) and then the fun starts from there.

Make sense? Sounds like r***0 also did a "nibble bid" like danglerb was mentioning

 

[Bolster]

I have a relative by marriage who, as a bidder, takes delight in making sure his competitors bid their absolute highest amount. Especially if they are bidding more than he's willing to, which irritates him. Or he will do it to people who have out-bid him in the past, as revenge. His idea is to "run them out of money" so he's more likely to win the next one. He told me this at the last family reunion.

So he uses this trick of watching the bid increment (when the increment changes, you stop bidding because you are very close to the high bidder's top amount, as explained in this thread) and he will run up a competitor to his top amount. He's in no way associated with the seller. He's just mean.

I offer this up as an example of how a bid history can look "shilly" when it may not be. Could just be you've got a mean SOB competitor. Or it could be a real shill. Who knows.

 

[tw33k2514]

Bolster, your relative sounds like a jerk...no offense.

 

[Danglerb]

ABSOLUTELY.

Take a look at the last few bids.

When he bid $32, he would be loosing and the "highest bid" is now $33.
When he bid $34, he would be loosing and the "highest bid" is now $35.
Then he bid $36, he would be loosing BUT the "highest bid" is now $36.78 (Not $37 as bid increments dictate)
UREKA! he's found *my* maximum bid!!!! ie the bid increment is $1, but the bid is only raised $.78 because that is my max bid. . ..

I'm not sure that is what other bidders would see. Asking more now.

 

[Danglerb]

http://answercenter.ebay.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1000182311&tstart=1&mod=1243360854249

 

[The Rusty Gear]

I have a relative by marriage who, as a bidder, takes delight in making sure his competitors bid their absolute highest amount. Especially if they are bidding more than he's willing to, which irritates him. Or he will do it to people who have out-bid him in the past, as revenge. His idea is to "run them out of money" so he's more likely to win the next one. He told me this at the last family reunion.

So he uses this trick of watching the bid increment (when the increment changes, you stop bidding because you are very close to the high bidder's top amount, as explained in this thread) and he will run up a competitor to his top amount. He's in no way associated with the seller. He's just mean.

I offer this up as an example of how a bid history can look "shilly" when it may not be. Could just be you've got a mean SOB competitor. Or it could be a real shill. Who knows.

Exactly why I'm trying to give the seller the benefit of the doubt. He may not be connected to the bidder - but *someone* seemed to run up the price on me.

 

[The Rusty Gear]

I'm not sure that is what other bidders would see. Asking more now.

Ive done similar before. If there was something for $20 and I bid $30 and the winning bid was now at $30.05, I'd bid $31 because I know I'd hit the bidders maximum. I never ended up winning these because the bidding always went higher, but "out of principle" I'd put in the extra buck so I'd have a chance at winning rather than loosing by 5 cents!

 

[Danglerb]

As I understand this nibble bidding, you have a 50/50 risk of going over the max bid, so that anybody that does it frequently either is buying stuff or retracting bids, or failing to pay.

 

[Bolster]

As I understand this nibble bidding, you have a 50/50 risk of going over the max bid, so that anybody that does it frequently either is buying stuff or retracting bids, or failing to pay.

No, with nibble bidding (I like the term!) you bid minimum amounts until you see an increment change. Then you stop. Your chances of taking the top bid accidentally are 1 out of 100.

 

[Danglerb]

Bolster, your relative sounds like a jerk...no offense.

Very typical in live auctions, run up the bid on competitors, run them out of money and make them pay top dollar, or at least never get something cheap.

Sorry to say, but business isn't always about being nice.

OTOH some see it as poker.

 

[Voltron]

No, with nibble bidding (I like the term!) you bid minimum amounts until you see an increment change. Then you stop. Your chances of taking the top bid accidentally are 1 out of 100.

As Bolster says, the chances of going over when bidding like this are negligible, as long as you bid the minimum increment. The only way they would be caught out is if your highest bid was equal to the where the minimum bid hits. For example my max bid is 36, the shill would bid 33, see my bid at 34, bid 35, see my bid at 36, bid 37. But in any case where the cent on your max bid is different from the current bid they can find your max easily.

Something else that makes me think this is a shill bot is the fact that the bids (as previously mentioned) are so close together - theres no way someone could make that bid, go back and check whether he was winning or what the current bid amount was, and then make another bid in 3 or 4 seconds.

Danglerb, please dont pay any attention to the answers on your Ebay thread, they obviously dont really know what they're talking about.

 

[Bolster]

This is the first I've ever heard of a shill bid bot. I had no idea they even existed! How do they sell those? "Buy ShillBidBot and Scam on eBay Automatically! As see on TV!"

 

[-B-]

I have a relative by marriage who, as a bidder, takes delight in making sure his competitors bid their absolute highest amount. Especially if they are bidding more than he's willing to, which irritates him. Or he will do it to people who have out-bid him in the past, as revenge. His idea is to "run them out of money" so he's more likely to win the next one. He told me this at the last family reunion.

So he uses this trick of watching the bid increment (when the increment changes, you stop bidding because you are very close to the high bidder's top amount, as explained in this thread) and he will run up a competitor to his top amount. He's in no way associated with the seller. He's just mean.

I offer this up as an example of how a bid history can look "shilly" when it may not be. Could just be you've got a mean SOB competitor. Or it could be a real shill. Who knows.

With no intention to do anything but drive up the price it is and can be prosecuted federally as interstate/ internet shill bidding.

 

[Skyline]

Something else that makes me think this is a shill bot is the fact that the bids (as previously mentioned) are so close together - theres no way someone could make that bid, go back and check whether he was winning or what the current bid amount was, and then make another bid in 3 or 4 seconds.

Don't forget that eBay now offers "One Click Bidding". 3-4 seconds is possible if you have a nice fast internet connection.

 

[Bolster]

With no intention to do anything but drive up the price it is and can be prosecuted federally as interstate/ internet shill bidding.

Somehow I'm guessing that offense doesn't get prosecuted very often. You'd have to prove intent, which would require the "perp" to incriminate himself. Now maybe if I was wearing a wire when he talked to me ... hmmm...

...but I have seen REAL cases of SERIOUS fraud on eBay and law enforcement doesn't give two hoots. So laws on the books are just ducky, as far as they go, but enforcement? Improbable.

 

[The Rusty Gear]

Don't forget that eBay now offers "One Click Bidding". 3-4 seconds is possible if you have a nice fast internet connection.

How about 2 seconds? (the majority were 2 seconds apart . . .)

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Under $25 the min bid increment is $.50

Here is the list with the automatic bids:
miket450( 44 ) US $18.00 25-May-09 16:35:21 EDT auto
r***0( 23) US $17.50 25-May-09 16:58:18 EDT
miket450( 44 ) US $16.49 25-May-09 16:35:21 EDT auto
u***n( 117) US $15.99 25-May-09 09:35:23 EDT
u***n( 117 ) US $15.50 25-May-09 09:35:23 EDT auto
r***0( 23) US $15.00 24-May-09 19:24:56 EDT
r***0( 23 ) US $12.50 24-May-09 19:24:56 EDT auto
r***f( 734) US $12.00 23-May-09 15:26:39 EDT


Sooooo r***f puts in a bid at $12
Shill put in bid at $15 max, and is winning at $12.50
u***n puts in a max nid of $15.99
ebay autobids shill to $15 (max which does not show as an auto )
ebay autobids u***n o $15.50 who is wining
I come in and put my max bid in at $36.78
Not sure how the next step works, but it looks like ebay autobids u***n's max of $15.99 then
ebay autobids me 50 cents more and I start winning at $16.49 ??? Shill comes in and bids $17.50
ebay auto bids me to $18 (50 cent increment) and then the fun starts from there.

Make sense? Sounds like r***0 also did a "nibble bid" like danglerb was mentioning

....you may be on to something here--perhaps more study

 

[Garage_Mahal]

One auction means nothing. You could just be seeing a bid nibbler in action. If you can show the same pattern across multiple auctions, then you might get some interest from eBay. Even then, they may do nothing.

I once had a competitor making blatantly obvious shill bids on his own product. Every auction for his product had exactly three bids, in exactly the same amounts from a rotating roster of a dozen accounts. I complained several times and eBay did nothing.