Is your battery maintainer working?

[FloydShine]

I am still fighting with Deltran about a 6v battery tender plus that stopped working. Now several letters, phone calls, $32.00 in shipping, two attempts of their techs doing nothing, I have a replacement unit from them, that was not even a new unit. Beware. Their customer service/tech/warranty service *****!

 

[redmed]

I have had a Schumacher die after 4 years. Bought two more Schumacher's to replace the dead one, they are three years old. Still working, I think, got to get a voltmeter and verify. Bought a Batteryminder two years ago when my car battery was getting weak and it brought that battery back. Took about a week of desulfateing that battery to bring it back but I'm still using it. Used that Batteryminder (just for the heck of it)on a dead battery I planned to use as a core when buying my next battery. That battery had been sitting on the cement floor of my garage for over a year. I'll be darn if it brought that battery back too. I just recently bought a Noco Genius maintainer to desulfate my 6 volt tractor battery. It works on both 12v & 6v but I'm not sure how well it desulfates, from what I read about it that it desulfates while first charging the battery. The Batteryminder desulfates in maintenance mode for days & days. When does the CTEK desulfate? Early in the cycle or continually after reaching full charge? I'm a believer in maintainers that not only charge a battery but also desulfate it.

 

[Treeman]

I think that desulfation is a marketing gimmick that has caught on, so many manufacturers have joined the band wagon to draw customers in. While I tend to trust the quality of manufacturers like Battery Minder and Ctek to have products that won't harm your battery (vs. Harbor Freight), I think they play on the marketing success of desulfation to fool us (I use Battery Minders).

Read this article and ALL of the comments below (LOL), then tell me if you believe in the desulfation hype. It may help a tiny bit on healthy batteries, but I don't believe all the claims.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it

"Several companies offer anti-sulfation devices that apply pulses to the battery terminals to prevent and reverse sulfation. Such technologies tend to lower sulfation on a healthy battery but they cannot effectively reverse the condition once present. Manufacturers offering these devices take the “one size fits all” approach and the method is unscientific. A random service of pulsing or blindly applying an overcharge can harm the battery in promoting grid corrosion. "

 

[redmondjp]

Those aren't "maintainers" they are just trickle chargers. Good for overnight charging but not permanent hook up.

You can leave them on permanently - I have done it with several batteries BUT I check the voltage every so often to make sure it is in the correct range. The quality of those units is all over the map. If you get a good one (voltage not too high, and not too low), then you will be fine.

However, I want to point out a potentially battery-killing design flaw of these inexpensive HF maintainers: That red LED on the rectangular plastic housing is powered by the battery itself when the maintainer is not plugged in, meaning that if you lose AC power to the maintainer, the LED will eventually drain the battery down to zero volts (over a few months). It's happened to me twice in my garage when either an extension cord was left unplugged by accident, or one of the clips on the battery itself got knocked off.

I use these HF units on my fleet of riding lawn mowers that I maintain for myself and a few neighbors. I should go back to Costco and get myself some more of the Battery Tender Junior units for $40 as those are much better.

 

[rodster_67]

Probably what was happening with my Schumacher. The green 'charged' light was on but the voltage wasn't being maintained, probably being drained slightly by the LED. Noticed it when I unplugged it to use the outlet. When I plugged it back in it showed 65% charged.

 

[SantaAna12]

I had a Schumacher ssc1500. It had a habit of "hanging" at a random percentage in the charge cycle.....annoying.
It also would charge to 16 volts! I called.Schumacher and their response was "our charging algorithms are the best in the business." I asked them to provide me a link to 16 volt (non-conditioning) battery charging.......the tech got flustered and repeated his canned marketing statement.
No more Schumachers for me. I went Promariner.
But the Noco at Costco has a great rep from what I've heard.

 

[rodster_67]

Doesn't matter how good the algorithm is if they are using a crappy Chinese chipset.

I suspect that's the weak link in Schumacher/Stanley/etc chargers.

Could be the better, more expensive brand chargers have a better handle on quality control of the hardware.

 

[redwrench60]

Just went out and checked my 8 year old AllStart model ALC612 charger/maintainer and the battery voltage showed 13.48 VDC in maintain/float mode. I turned on the headlights and when the voltage dropped to the 12.39 VDC mark the maintainer switched over to charge mode.

I'd say it's working. Good thread though, it's easy to take this stuff for granted.

 

[rodster_67]

Just went out and checked my 8 year old AllStart model ALC612 charger/maintainer and the battery voltage showed 13.48 VDC in maintain/float mode. I turned on the headlights and when the voltage dropped to the 12.39 VDC mark the maintainer switched over to charge mode.

I'd say it's working.

Good thread though, it's easy to take this stuff for granted.

Yep and be fooled by indicator lights. Better to check now than to be sorry come spring.

 

[redwrench60]

Yep and be fooled by indicator lights. Better to check now than to be sorry come spring.

I'll have to check the one over at mom and dads place hooked to the lawn tractor next time I'm there too.

 

[kball]

You can leave them on permanently - I have done it with several batteries BUT I check the voltage every so often to make sure it is in the correct range. The quality of those units is all over the map. If you get a good one (voltage not too high, and not too low), then you will be fine.

Maintainers have a "brain" that tells them when to stop. The HF unit is just going to keep sending that amp no matter what. I don't call that a maintainer. I call it an eventual over-charger. When I first bought my HF unit I left it on a battery 24/7 and everything seemed fine until one day I checked it and the battery was slow boiled dry. I've never used it since except for overnight charging.

 

[rodster_67]

Gotta do some research but wonder how much current a fully charged battery will draw if you don't limit the source?

I do know that when my maintainer is in float mode, it's only supplying about 0.1a.

 

[supersteve]

Read this article and ALL of the comments below (LOL)

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it

Holy **** lmao, I haven't gotten halfway through but this is like the same kind of retirement home fistfight you see on GJ, just with more flowery language.

 

[NC-Shaun]

I am a believer in Battery Tender Jr, I have been using them for over 6 years on my motorcycles. However, I havent been driving my Toyota FJ Cruiser much over the past few months, and will probably keep it in storage until this fall. I have never used a Battery Tender on a modern day vehicle......I have had some people tell me they are safe to use on current vehicles, and many guys use them with no problems.

Safe to use on a 2008 FJ Cruiser....Opinions?

 

[redmondjp]

Maintainers have a "brain" that tells them when to stop. The HF unit is just going to keep sending that amp no matter what. I don't call that a maintainer. I call it an eventual over-charger. When I first bought my HF unit I left it on a battery 24/7 and everything seemed fine until one day I checked it and the battery was slow boiled dry. I've never used it since except for overnight charging.

I'm not sure which HF unit you are talking about, but the one that I am referring to has a wall-wart transformer, and then a small plastic box with a red LED on it, with the battery leads/clips coming out of it. It has a voltage regulator in the box which will not allow the battery voltage to exceed a certain amount (if it is working) - most of mine seems to be between 13.1 - 13.5VDC. You can keep either a regular flooded-cell or gel-cell lead-acid battery in this voltage range indefinitely and it will not damage the battery.

The problem is if the voltage goes too high (above the gassing voltage, around 14.2V), which sounds like what happened in your case. That's why having a Fluke multimeter is so important (I have a half-dozen of them). Trust, but verify.

Buy a Fluke multimeter if you don't have one. You really need an accurate voltmeter if you want to know what is going on with your batteries.

 

[SASORacing]

I like using my battery tender JR's direct plug that is wired up for a direct plug in. so nice. I dont see how you are having problems unless they are faulty. Or your currect batteries in your motorcycle's / cars are bad. Or you might have a battery leak/ drain/ power draw/ light on type thing.

 

[wkndwarrior29]

I don't consider brands like Schumacher and Stanley 'cheap' units as they also have the option for AGM batteries and desulfate. The brands have had good reputations for many years and the ones that work, work fine, some people report no problems. However, maybe they sold their soul to lower cost/lower quality control.

To me there should be no reason, other than marketing, to design and build a unit that sells for $200. The electronics and software behind a tender is nothing compared to a simple point and shoot camera for example.

The cheap HF and similar units I understand and avoid.

Most of my batteries are not expensive and no computer to worry about. On cars with a computer, I disconnect the battery.

What are the examples of tenders damaging a computer? I know automotive electronics are designed to withstand extreme operating conditions.

Rodster, you have provided some good points. For a frame of reference, I had purchased the charger for a car with a difficult to access battery and the intent of using it on the jump ports. I would also note that the charger is $109 on amazon and less expensive models are available if you don't want the extra features. I'm not a salesman but a happy customer providing the OP with a recommendation and different POV. I'm a full believer in the smart charger capabilities and have found the unit to be of a high quality.

The Batteryminder desulfates in maintenance mode for days & days. When does the CTEK desulfate? Early in the cycle or continually after reaching full charge? I'm a believer in maintainers that not only charge a battery but also desulfate it.

My unit only desulfates when in recondition mode and after a full charge has been applied, and only if the analyzer determines that it is required. Per the instruction manual it applies > 15V when doing this ... so I would want to control when it is done. I have only desulfated with the battery removed and in a well ventilated area.

The battery university article is interesting. I can say that I've loaned my charger to a half a dozen people to use this feature and only received positive feedback. For example, one coworker's truck was starting hard 2 years ago in the winter but had normal voltage, I loaned him the charger and he told me his battery started functioning like new. Another coworker attempted the same thing but the charger wouldn't desulfate after analysis, he then had the battery tested and it was determined to require replacement.

As for the OP, if you want to replace your untrusted units with something that just requires an occasional light verification ... check them out.

 

[rodster_67]

...
....
... I'm not a salesman but a happy customer providing the OP with a recommendation and different POV. I'm a full believer in the smart charger capabilities and have found the unit to be of a high quality.

I am the OP and appreciate the information

Knowing you have a difficult to access battery, makes a lot so sense to step up to a (hopefully) better unit.

I'm coming to the conclusion the more reliable units mentioned here are probably built by companies that spend more time and money doing quality control and possibly better, more costly, offshore manufacturing.

It ashamed companies like Stanley (owned by a big parent company) and Schumacher seem to focus more on lower cost and probably higher margins, then providing a reliable product.

 

[Interex]

A quick note about Deltran:

In August of last year, I bought a Battery Tender Jr. from a vendor on Newegg after it was posted on a popular deal website. A few months later, I received a letter from an attorney's office representing Deltran in a suit against the vendor that supplied the product. Apparently, the supplier sent out counterfeit units comprised of a circuit board that illuminated the LED on the wall wart but did not supply the leads with the proper amount of voltage (if any). Shrink wrapped concrete was installed inside to add weight that would mimic a transformer. I followed the instructions to call Deltran customer service. They sent me a prepaid envelope to return the counterfeit and in return, I received a brand new unit directly from Deltran. They didn't have to go through any of it but felt that it was worth it to get as many of them back as it would be detrimental to the brand.

 

[Treeman]

Regarding the 16v concern voiced above, CTEK has this to say in their FAQ section:

"Q. Does the battery have to be disconnected from the vehicle when charging with a CTEK charger?
A. No, CTEK chargers cannot damage sensitive electronics so you do not need to disconnect the battery from the vehicle. However, particular attention must be paid when Boost/Recond mode is used as the voltage is 16V. If the voltage is below 16V, most manufacturers consider that everything is in order and CTEK chargers are well under this level, with the exception of Boost/Recond modes."

 

[redmondjp]

Regarding the 16v concern voiced above, CTEK has this to say in their FAQ section:

"Q. Does the battery have to be disconnected from the vehicle when charging with a CTEK charger?
A. No, CTEK chargers cannot damage sensitive electronics so you do not need to disconnect the battery from the vehicle. However, particular attention must be paid when Boost/Recond mode is used as the voltage is 16V. If the voltage is below 16V, most manufacturers consider that everything is in order and CTEK chargers are well under this level, with the exception of Boost/Recond modes."

Wow! 16V? You've really got to be careful with that high of a voltage applied to the battery for very long. No big deal for a boost for several seconds, but I'd be curious to hear more about the recondition mode (getting a bit OT for this thread however).

 

[Motorhead Extraordinaire]

I've use Battery Tenders for about 15 years. Never had one go bad. I use one on my vintage AFX car which runs off battery only. It's a dual gel cell battery in a big AFX battery case that I have been using May 2004.

I use them also on motorcycle and car batteries for the summer drivers and keep the batteries up to snuff in the winter. I just put the second replacement battery in my 97 Viper GTS. That's 8+ years per battery of life.

I've got 5 winter batteries staying healthy while the bikes and cars hibernate for the winter. I'm a big fan.

Joe

 

[TomB19]

When does the CTEK desulfate? Early in the cycle or continually after reaching full charge? I'm a believer in maintainers that not only charge a battery but also desulfate it.

I haven't studied the C-TEK that closely, although a friend has one. I have an Optimate 6. They are almost the same thing, from different vendors.

The Optimate tests a battery at the start of a charge cycle and schedules maintenance/charge from there. Not sure if the C-TEK is the same.

These devices detect sulfation by measuring the internal resistance of the battery. High resistance means the battery is sulfated.

Having one of these devices is like having free batteries. I haven't had an unrecoverable battery in a few years. By "recover", I don't just mean get back to 12 volts. I mean put back into service and have it drive the starter as hard as normal, even in cold winter temps.

It's not just the cost saving. It's wildly convenient.

 

[SantaAna12]

Wow! 16V? You've really got to be careful with that high of a voltage applied to the battery for very long. No big deal for a boost for several seconds, but I'd be curious to hear more about the recondition mode (getting a bit OT for this thread however).

And even more concerned if the unit charges at 16 volts during a standard charging profile.

 

[brtsvg]

I have 2 battery tender jr.s over 3 years old working perfectly.

Same exact story here - no problems whatsoever - these are great units

 

[rodster_67]

A quick note about Deltran:

In August of last year, I bought a Battery Tender Jr. from a vendor on Newegg after it was posted on a popular deal website. A few months later, I received a letter from an attorney's office representing Deltran in a suit against the vendor that supplied the product. Apparently, the supplier sent out counterfeit units comprised of a circuit board that illuminated the LED on the wall wart but did not supply the leads with the proper amount of voltage (if any). Shrink wrapped concrete was installed inside to add weight that would mimic a transformer. I followed the instructions to call Deltran customer service. They sent me a prepaid envelope to return the counterfeit and in return, I received a brand new unit directly from Deltran. They didn't have to go through any of it but felt that it was worth it to get as many of them back as it would be detrimental to the brand.

Wow, amazing. Imagine ripping apart a charger to figure out the problem only to find a hunk of concrete. Counterfeiting sure is one byproduct of our global economy.

Regarding the 16v concern voiced above, CTEK has this to say in their FAQ section:

"Q. Does the battery have to be disconnected from the vehicle when charging with a CTEK charger?
A. No, CTEK chargers cannot damage sensitive electronics so you do not need to disconnect the battery from the vehicle. However, particular attention must be paid when Boost/Recond mode is used as the voltage is 16V. If the voltage is below 16V, most manufacturers consider that everything is in order and CTEK chargers are well under this level, with the exception of Boost/Recond modes."

Interesting, so best to remove the battery from the vehicle during Boost/Recon mode. Good info.

 

[redmed]

I think that desulfation is a marketing gimmick that has caught on, so many manufacturers have joined the band wagon to draw customers in. While I tend to trust the quality of manufacturers like Battery Minder and Ctek to have products that won't harm your battery (vs. Harbor Freight), I think they play on the marketing success of desulfation to fool us (I use Battery Minders).

Read this article and ALL of the comments below (LOL), then tell me if you believe in the desulfation hype. It may help a tiny bit on healthy batteries, but I don't believe all the claims.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it

"Several companies offer anti-sulfation devices that apply pulses to the battery terminals to prevent and reverse sulfation. Such technologies tend to lower sulfation on a healthy battery but they cannot effectively reverse the condition once present. Manufacturers offering these devices take the “one size fits all” approach and the method is unscientific. A random service of pulsing or blindly applying an overcharge can harm the battery in promoting grid corrosion. "

I have read that previously. Before I bought the Batteryminder.
This summer the battery in my garden tractor would not turn the motor. The battery has struggled all summer and is 6 years old so, I expected it. I put the batteryminder on it for a couple days, had a short excuse for not cutting the grass, then after two days the tractor started. This was done right after disconnecting the charger so no surprise. Put the batteryminder back on the battery for 13 days after cutting the grass to give it time to desulfate before cutting the grass again. For the next two months just cut the grass with no charging between uses, nice peppy starts. I then connected the snowblower to the gardentractor then let it sit for 5-7 weeks. When we got snow I went to start the gardentractor and it slowly turned almost two torturous turns. I gave up on the battery and had a neighbor clear the snow. The next day went to the store and bought a new battery. Eight days later I went out to use the snowblower with the new battery in hand. For grins before taking out the old battery I turned the key and was surprised how fast the starter turned. It was almost 30 degrees that day the previous time it was below 5 degrees. So after 13 days of desulfating that battery, months later was still strong enough to turn the motor on a cold day. Now I have a new battery sitting in my house. So yes, I believe in desulfating batteries. By experience.

 

[doan]

Wow! 16V? You've really got to be careful with that high of a voltage applied to the battery for very long. No big deal for a boost for several seconds, but I'd be curious to hear more about the recondition mode (getting a bit OT for this thread however).

You have to remember, that in order to get energy into a battery, the potential of the charger has to be greater than the potential (voltage) of the battery.

A battery can be modeled as a voltage source and a resistor. There will be voltage drop across the "resistor" that increases with current. So if you're in high charge mode you need more voltage to get the AMPS. If you want to see something scary, measure the output voltage of your high amp or boost mode charger when not connected to a battery.

AMPS are what charge a battery. You need voltage to make AMPS.

 

[doan]

Interesting, so best to remove the battery from the vehicle during Boost/Recon mode. Good info.

It would take a lot more than 16v to hurt anything in a modern car. They are designed not to die when people unknowingly do stupid things. They have to assume the people's will try to jump start with a completely dead battery, or hook up a charger backwards, or use a charger in boost mode....

All of the "sensitive" electronics have their own internal power supply. None of the computer stuff in a car can run on the noisy ~14v from the alternator. Most of it runs on 5v or less via built in regulators. Anything in a car can easily take 24v other than the stuff like lights that run straight off the battery.

The warning about 16v is just lawyer stuff to protect them if something does go wrong.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I was surprised that it took my Batter Tender Jr. almost 72 hours to recharge the battery in my boat after sitting outside all winter.

 

[redmondjp]

You have to remember, that in order to get energy into a battery, the potential of the charger has to be greater than the potential (voltage) of the battery.

A battery can be modeled as a voltage source and a resistor. There will be voltage drop across the "resistor" that increases with current. So if you're in high charge mode you need more voltage to get the AMPS. If you want to see something scary, measure the output voltage of your high amp or boost mode charger when not connected to a battery.

AMPS are what charge a battery. You need voltage to make AMPS.

I know all that - I am an electrical engineer that did my senior design project on a sealed lead-acid battery tester/charger for battery-powered defibrillators.

You don't ever want to expose a 12V lead-acid battery to that high of a voltage for an extended period of time (this is a thread about battery maintainers, not boost chargers, after all). The gassing voltage (the voltage at which the water inside the battery will be separated into gaseous hydrogen and oxygen) is around 14.2V - if the battery is over 80% charged and is exposed to that level of voltage or higher for an extended period, it will boil all of the electrolyte out.

 

[redmed]

I know all that - I am an electrical engineer that did my senior design project on a sealed lead-acid battery tester/charger for battery-powered defibrillators.

You don't ever want to expose a 12V lead-acid battery to that high of a voltage for an extended period of time (this is a thread about battery maintainers, not boost chargers, after all). The gassing voltage (the voltage at which the water inside the battery will be separated into gaseous hydrogen and oxygen) is around 14.2V - if the battery is over 80% charged and is exposed to that level of voltage or higher for an extended period, it will boil all of the electrolyte out.

Do you think other brands than CTEK get up above 14.2V while in desulfate mode?

 

[redmondjp]

Do you think other brands than CTEK get up above 14.2V while in desulfate mode?

For short, intermittent periods, certainly. But not continuously for long periods.