2level
Well-known member
Are those orange receptacles the best way to minimize interference on audio/video equipment? Can they still be effective if 3 or 4 are chained together on the same circuit?
isolated ground duplex receptacles
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Torque1st
MEMBER EMERITUS
It has been my experience that different ground points within an audio or video system increases noise and interference.
-JP
Well-known member
Unless you have a true "Isolated Ground System" including an IG panelboard, the IG type receptacles do not provide any benefit.
IG sytems were the rage in the 80's but no one installs them anymore except people who do not understand how they work.
IG sytems were the rage in the 80's but no one installs them anymore except people who do not understand how they work.
travisd
Well-known member
I may very well be wrong, but I was under the impression that the Orange IG outlets were electrically no different from a regular outlet - they're just an indication of how things are wired.
Torque1st
MEMBER EMERITUS
Correct.
sberry
Banned
The best you can do on a residential system is run a romex from the main panel to a plastic box, even a metal one if it is only grounded by the cable feeding it. The orange recepts are not bonded to the yoke mounting it, they are for use in metal boxes where they want to retain insulated ground. The wording isolated ground is very misleading at best, its really insulated ground back to the main panel.
-JP
Well-known member
Actually there is more to it...
An IG receptacle is constructed different than a typical receptacle in that it has the ground terminal "isolated' from the mounting strap as compared to a typcial receptacle that is intended to make a gournd connection to the back box and raceway system. Therefore you can not use the two devices for both applications.
The orange color is really not the indication of an IG type device. The true indication of an IG device is represented by a green triangle on the face of the device.
You can purchase an IG type receptacle in about 10 different colors if that is what you want.
sberry
Banned
A per Bob Keis.
About "isolated grounds". There are no such things and there cannot be such things. I know they are out there, and I know some of you make the installation under the guidance of the design engineer, or because the electronic guy said it had to be this way or else. I will repeat, THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS ISOLATED GROUNDS.
You will probably find that there is no particular continuity to what I am about to start on. There is no easy way in 20 words or less to do this. So, lets just start. Section 250.146(D) covers "Isolated Receptacles". This section address the IG grounds and states in part; "The receptacle grounding terminal shall be grounded by an insulated equipment grounding conductor run with the circuit conductors." Let's look at this sentence first. The insulated grounding conductor is to run with the circuit conductors --- How can it do this if it goes to a water pipe, or a separate ground rod someplace?
Next sentence "This grounding conductor shall be permitted to pass through one or more panelboards without connection to the panelboard grounding terminal as permitted in 408.20, Exception, so as to terminate within the same building or structure directly at an equipment grounding conductor terminal of the applicable derived system or service." This sentence tells you where the insulated ground is to terminate. How can it terminate within the same building, on the grounding terminal of the service, or the separately derived system (transformer), if it goes somewhere else?
"Section 250.4(D) (5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. Electrical equipment and wiring and other electrically conductive material likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that creates a permanent, low-impedance circuit capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from any point on the wiring system where a ground fault may occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be used as the sole equipment grounding conductor or effective ground-fault current path." This section requires a low impedance fault return path. The only way to achieve this is to have the equipment ground wire in the same cable, or raceway with the circuit conductors. You cannot separate current flow and maintain a low impedance, it is impossible. Notice one more thing in the above statement. The fault return is go back to the electrical supply source, not where else.
Where do we ground equipment? And yes, electronic equipment is equipment under the code and must comply with all the rules. I know some electronic people think they are special, and are exempt from certain aspects of the code, but believe me they are not. They must follow the same rules as the rest of us. Section 250.6(D) contains the following statement: "(D) Limitations to Permissible Alterations. The provisions of this section shall not be considered as permitting electronic equipment from being operated on ac systems or branch circuits that are not grounded as required by this article. Currents that introduce noise or data errors in electronic equipment shall not be considered the objectionable currents addressed in this section."
This next section tells us what we are to ground equipment to. Believe it or not, no equipment goes to a ground rod, and no equipment whatever is ever connected to a ground rod to ground it. (Yes, there is an exception for 'supplemental grounds') Section "250.4(A)( (3) Bonding of Electrical Equipment. Non-current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path." The electrical supply source is the system from which the circuit originated, actually the supply neutral.
Remember this statement: When the code requires a piece of equipment to be grounded, it is grounded (bonded really) to the system grounded circuit conductor, the neutral. It is never connected to a ground rod, a water pipe, building steel or anything else. It goes directly to the system grounded circuit conductor. (in the case of delta systems it goes to the grounded service equipment).
Then, we ground the system grounded conductor, the neutral, to earth, no equipment to earth, the system neutral to earth. Stop for a minute and consider where you put all the equipment grounding conductors at home. Most of you wired with Romex and the bare ground is landed directly on the neutral bar in the main service disconnect. Not in a subpanel, but at the main itself. Then you grounded the neutral. Thus all the equipment in you house is grounded to the neutral, just like is supposed to be.
Remember this also, the code requires a low impedance ground-fault return path for fault current. In order to obtain this, we must keep all the circuit conductors and the equipment grounding conductors in close proximity in the same raceway or cable. The is also required in "300.3 (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (4)."
About "isolated grounds". There are no such things and there cannot be such things. I know they are out there, and I know some of you make the installation under the guidance of the design engineer, or because the electronic guy said it had to be this way or else. I will repeat, THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS ISOLATED GROUNDS.
You will probably find that there is no particular continuity to what I am about to start on. There is no easy way in 20 words or less to do this. So, lets just start. Section 250.146(D) covers "Isolated Receptacles". This section address the IG grounds and states in part; "The receptacle grounding terminal shall be grounded by an insulated equipment grounding conductor run with the circuit conductors." Let's look at this sentence first. The insulated grounding conductor is to run with the circuit conductors --- How can it do this if it goes to a water pipe, or a separate ground rod someplace?
Next sentence "This grounding conductor shall be permitted to pass through one or more panelboards without connection to the panelboard grounding terminal as permitted in 408.20, Exception, so as to terminate within the same building or structure directly at an equipment grounding conductor terminal of the applicable derived system or service." This sentence tells you where the insulated ground is to terminate. How can it terminate within the same building, on the grounding terminal of the service, or the separately derived system (transformer), if it goes somewhere else?
"Section 250.4(D) (5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. Electrical equipment and wiring and other electrically conductive material likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that creates a permanent, low-impedance circuit capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from any point on the wiring system where a ground fault may occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be used as the sole equipment grounding conductor or effective ground-fault current path." This section requires a low impedance fault return path. The only way to achieve this is to have the equipment ground wire in the same cable, or raceway with the circuit conductors. You cannot separate current flow and maintain a low impedance, it is impossible. Notice one more thing in the above statement. The fault return is go back to the electrical supply source, not where else.
Where do we ground equipment? And yes, electronic equipment is equipment under the code and must comply with all the rules. I know some electronic people think they are special, and are exempt from certain aspects of the code, but believe me they are not. They must follow the same rules as the rest of us. Section 250.6(D) contains the following statement: "(D) Limitations to Permissible Alterations. The provisions of this section shall not be considered as permitting electronic equipment from being operated on ac systems or branch circuits that are not grounded as required by this article. Currents that introduce noise or data errors in electronic equipment shall not be considered the objectionable currents addressed in this section."
This next section tells us what we are to ground equipment to. Believe it or not, no equipment goes to a ground rod, and no equipment whatever is ever connected to a ground rod to ground it. (Yes, there is an exception for 'supplemental grounds') Section "250.4(A)( (3) Bonding of Electrical Equipment. Non-current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path." The electrical supply source is the system from which the circuit originated, actually the supply neutral.
Remember this statement: When the code requires a piece of equipment to be grounded, it is grounded (bonded really) to the system grounded circuit conductor, the neutral. It is never connected to a ground rod, a water pipe, building steel or anything else. It goes directly to the system grounded circuit conductor. (in the case of delta systems it goes to the grounded service equipment).
Then, we ground the system grounded conductor, the neutral, to earth, no equipment to earth, the system neutral to earth. Stop for a minute and consider where you put all the equipment grounding conductors at home. Most of you wired with Romex and the bare ground is landed directly on the neutral bar in the main service disconnect. Not in a subpanel, but at the main itself. Then you grounded the neutral. Thus all the equipment in you house is grounded to the neutral, just like is supposed to be.
Remember this also, the code requires a low impedance ground-fault return path for fault current. In order to obtain this, we must keep all the circuit conductors and the equipment grounding conductors in close proximity in the same raceway or cable. The is also required in "300.3 (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (4)."
sberry
Banned
Everything stays together, including the IG ground.
Section 250.54 allows for what the code calls "supplementary grounding electrodes". Some electronic equipment in the installation instructions require this electrode. Why they want these I have no idea, but some electronic people think that if it isn't connected to earth, then it isn't grounded. They don't understand that the earth is loaded with stray currents from many things, but so be it. These stray currents come from many sources. One is the fact that between your grounding electrode at home the system transformer, there are currents through the earth in parallel with your service neutral. These are a fact of life and how much current depends on a lot of things. Also, you, or your neighbors could have a piece of UF going out to a yard light that has a nick in the insulation. Black or white, it don't matter. Some current is leaking out of this nicked insulation and will find it's way back to the electrical system through the earth. Then there are the installations that now grounded to a ground rod because that is the way they were put in. A good example of these are mall parking lot lights, or any large area lighting. A lot of these have no ground wire to them, they are grounded by way of a rod. If one of these lights develops a ground-fault, the current flow is down the rod, then back to the source through the earth. There are many references in the code that prohibit using the earth for an equipment grounding conductor, but these installations exist by the hundreds. If a ground rod is driven into an area that has any of these conditions, the current will be imposed on the equipment connected to this "isolated ground rod". This creates a shock hazard when touching the equipment grounded this way, and any equipment in the building that is connected to the building grounded system.
Take at least one example: A piece or equipment is grounded to a ground rod to satisfy the electronic people. They insist that the equipment be connected to an isolated ground. The average ground rod will megger well over 100 ohms. But just suppose you are lucky and manage a 10 ohm ground rod. 120 volt divided by 10 means that leas than 12 amperes will flow in case of a ground-fault. Will this clear a 15- or 20-amp overcurrent device? No way, but there is 120 volts going down the rod, and 120 volts on the metal of the equipment, just waiting for someone to come in contact with it. Where is this current going from the ground rod. Pretty much where ever it wants, and if there is a swimming pool nearby that for some reason wasn't properly bonded, or has a bad bonding connection, this could be time for an electrocution. About the overcurrent device, in order to clear a standard 20 amp circuit breaker in a reasonable time, it must have close to 80 to 100 amperes pass through it. Kind of hard to do when the rod will only pass 10 or 12 amperes.
I strayed, back to 250.54. This section permits a supplemental grounding electrode at the equipment, but the electrode must be connected to the equipment grounding conductor in the circuit to the equipment. A lot of mall lighting is installed this way. The supplemental electrode is bonded to the equipment ground of the light, and it provides added safety for lighting hits. A lot of the lightning energy will dissipate down the rod. Otherwise it would go back on the equipment ground in the circuit and since the insulation is only 600 volts, it causes a lot of damage to conductors.
As for isolation transformers, these are no different electrically than any other transformer. All transformers, other than autotransformers, are isolation transformers. By this I mean the primary is isolated from the secondary. The difference between a standard and an isolation transformer is the addition of a grounded metal shield between the primary and the secondary winding. All separately derived systems, transformers, must be grounded and bonded to comply with section 250.30. No exceptions are made for isolation transformers, nor for electronic equipment Again, some people feel that these transformers are neither bonded or grounded because they are special. If the bonding connection is not made, there is no way at all to complete the ground-fault return circuit for opening the overcurrent device. You wind up with phase voltage imposed on the entire structure, and this can be deadly.
Section 250.54 allows for what the code calls "supplementary grounding electrodes". Some electronic equipment in the installation instructions require this electrode. Why they want these I have no idea, but some electronic people think that if it isn't connected to earth, then it isn't grounded. They don't understand that the earth is loaded with stray currents from many things, but so be it. These stray currents come from many sources. One is the fact that between your grounding electrode at home the system transformer, there are currents through the earth in parallel with your service neutral. These are a fact of life and how much current depends on a lot of things. Also, you, or your neighbors could have a piece of UF going out to a yard light that has a nick in the insulation. Black or white, it don't matter. Some current is leaking out of this nicked insulation and will find it's way back to the electrical system through the earth. Then there are the installations that now grounded to a ground rod because that is the way they were put in. A good example of these are mall parking lot lights, or any large area lighting. A lot of these have no ground wire to them, they are grounded by way of a rod. If one of these lights develops a ground-fault, the current flow is down the rod, then back to the source through the earth. There are many references in the code that prohibit using the earth for an equipment grounding conductor, but these installations exist by the hundreds. If a ground rod is driven into an area that has any of these conditions, the current will be imposed on the equipment connected to this "isolated ground rod". This creates a shock hazard when touching the equipment grounded this way, and any equipment in the building that is connected to the building grounded system.
Take at least one example: A piece or equipment is grounded to a ground rod to satisfy the electronic people. They insist that the equipment be connected to an isolated ground. The average ground rod will megger well over 100 ohms. But just suppose you are lucky and manage a 10 ohm ground rod. 120 volt divided by 10 means that leas than 12 amperes will flow in case of a ground-fault. Will this clear a 15- or 20-amp overcurrent device? No way, but there is 120 volts going down the rod, and 120 volts on the metal of the equipment, just waiting for someone to come in contact with it. Where is this current going from the ground rod. Pretty much where ever it wants, and if there is a swimming pool nearby that for some reason wasn't properly bonded, or has a bad bonding connection, this could be time for an electrocution. About the overcurrent device, in order to clear a standard 20 amp circuit breaker in a reasonable time, it must have close to 80 to 100 amperes pass through it. Kind of hard to do when the rod will only pass 10 or 12 amperes.
I strayed, back to 250.54. This section permits a supplemental grounding electrode at the equipment, but the electrode must be connected to the equipment grounding conductor in the circuit to the equipment. A lot of mall lighting is installed this way. The supplemental electrode is bonded to the equipment ground of the light, and it provides added safety for lighting hits. A lot of the lightning energy will dissipate down the rod. Otherwise it would go back on the equipment ground in the circuit and since the insulation is only 600 volts, it causes a lot of damage to conductors.
As for isolation transformers, these are no different electrically than any other transformer. All transformers, other than autotransformers, are isolation transformers. By this I mean the primary is isolated from the secondary. The difference between a standard and an isolation transformer is the addition of a grounded metal shield between the primary and the secondary winding. All separately derived systems, transformers, must be grounded and bonded to comply with section 250.30. No exceptions are made for isolation transformers, nor for electronic equipment Again, some people feel that these transformers are neither bonded or grounded because they are special. If the bonding connection is not made, there is no way at all to complete the ground-fault return circuit for opening the overcurrent device. You wind up with phase voltage imposed on the entire structure, and this can be deadly.
sberry
Banned
I didn't invent or write that, copy from another site I keep in my notes, it explains a lot better than I can word it, lots of general info in there about grounding theory and application. Helped me get my mind wrapped around it to some extent.