It's time for a torch. (oxy/acetylene)

[L.Cheapo]

I'll preface by saying I did search, and there is a lot of good information here, but some if it is now years old, and I probably didn't find it all.

I've never owned a torch before. I used one a few times about 15 years ago. I have had three instances recently where I really, really could have used a torch. It's time.

I'll be using it for general automotive use (heating fasteners) and cutting steel, I cant imagine working with anything more than 1/2" thick. I have no use for brazing at this time, but who knows what the future holds.

I see the Smith products are called Miller now. I love my new Millermatic 211. My LWS is 2 miles away, and they carry Miller/Smith. From their site, it appears the Miller/Smith units are Made in USA, and that is extremely important to me.

I believe I want one of the portable kits. This is not something I will use often. I'm DIY/Hobbyist. I've made it 37 years without a torch, but as I get older I enjoy fighting with things less. I know I wont get much runtime out of one, but with resupply literally 2 miles away, I don't see this as an issue. I do understand there is something of a 1/7 rule about exhausting the Acetylene tank, but I don't fully understand it. I could not find the Smith manuals online. (odd)

I do not have the space/need for large tanks.

To recap, I want:
Made in USA
Quality
Portable

Please, talk me into or out of the Smith/Miller TL-550. Thank you.
https://www.millerwelds.com/equipme...le=tag-a-long-acetylene-outfit-w-tanks-tl-550

 

[sberry]

This is worthwhile and part of every real shop. Skip the porto torch and get the best bottles you can, 80 cf min and a 140/125 or "S" bottles even better. You do not need a huge torch and the midrange stuff is fine, they will cut a couple inches if needed. The Smiths is very good and welding suppliers are often good about set prices as they want the gas business so they often are great about mark ups. Victor Ranger is the competitor here but I believe Mexican made.

 

[R.Anderson]

New or used?

If you do not really need to cut you can get just a acetylene torch. I got one for heating nuts/bolts, brazing copper pipe, heat treating, and other things. Got a used Presto set for $90 with two B tanks at a local 2nd hand store. You can find good used USA made torch sets on eBay and sometimes craigslist as well.

 

[L.Cheapo]

Thank you for the input. Two of the three recent needs were for cutting. I would like to cut at least 1/2" steel. I want this new, and I'm not concerned with the price. I do want Made in USA and high quality--buy once, cry once.

Are thread sizes across all size tanks, say 80cf and below the same? IE, could I get a portable setup, then upgrade to larger tanks down the road by only changing out the tanks themselves? Thanks!

 

[Ign]

The porto-torches will last a very short time cutting 1/2" or heating. You can't get much heat out of the little ones either due to the 1/7 rule (has it been updated to 1/10 now??).

Sorry not more help but if you truly want buy once cry once, get the best Victor setup you can afford and the biggest tanks you can lease. I understand that goes against your original criteria, but you kinda gotta pick one: small, not very capable and cheap, or expensive, big and kick-***

 

[L.Cheapo]

Thank you, Ign. I'll have to stop by the LWS and see what size tanks they will sell me. When I got my tank for 75/25 for my 211, 60cuft was the largest they would SELL me. Anything larger would be leased, which I thought was odd. They do not like to refill tanks on the spot. I will use this so infrequently, that I would like to own the tanks.

 

[Jazz1]

I use oxygen/propane. Suits my purpose but never would want a shop without them. Some things just won't come apart without heat. My Victor torches got to be 80 years old

 

[A_Pmech]

If you don't plan on welding with a torch, oxy-propane is fine. Then all you need is a BBQ cylinder and an O2 bottle.

 

[jdlong]

I've been tempted to get on of those Harbor Freight setups with the small bottles for $300. Mainly for heating rusted bolts. I just wonder if they are worth it.

 

[Cope]

In Texas, Victor is king. Buy what you can get tips for. I agree with sberry on the size. The 125 O2 with whatever size Acetylene they pair with it will do the job. Remember who will be hauling the emptys to the LWS, and don't buy too big. LWS sell/lease policy varies from region to region.

 

[Robby321]

I've been tempted to get on of those Harbor Freight setups with the small bottles for $300. Mainly for heating rusted bolts. I just wonder if they are worth it.

Nothing wrong with them. Had one for 30 years now. I have the big tanks too, but for working boats trailers, etc, does the job and easy to move. If ya do a lot of cutting though, oxy bottle m/t fast, so have a supply place near ya for refill exchange.

 

[bmwrd0]

I think it depends on where you work with them. If you are just wheeling a cart around the shop, regular size bottles are fine. But, if you need to bring them inside (airplane) or on top (HVAC unit) of something, portable is the way to go.

 

[2mJps]

I have a Harris torch got it in 1984 there cheaper and i have cut scrap up for aliveing so its has lasted. I use propane so my 2cents would be buy a small oxy bottle and a small propane bottle.

 

[FigureItOut]

You mentioned heating bolts, you'll have to use a large welding tip to do so if you get a portatorch type setup. A rosebud will exceed the 1/7 withdrawal rate. I'm going off of Victor's specs for Victor's equipment.

When I was torch shopping, I really wanted a small setup like that, and I still wish I had one as a secondary, but in the end I decided I'd never be happy with it, and still be safe, since I was set on acetylene as my fuel.
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[metaldad]

please explain 1/7

 

[rlitman]

You mentioned heating bolts, you'll have to use a large welding tip to do so if you get a portatorch type setup. A rosebud ...

Better than a rosebud for heating bolts. Use a cutting torch. It's basically a mini rosebud if you don't press the lever.

 

[sberry]

L.p. is a good cheap setup. My auto mech but used it a career and I did before plasma. If I was buying bottles today would look clist first. lotso setd, bigger tanks and lot less money. While there are deals on torches I got nothing against new here especially for new user.

 

[machine_punk]

A vintage Victor 100 would meet your needs. I bought a used one (the original 100, made in the USA) and had it refurbished for $75. The cutting heads are readily available. The welding tips are relatively cheap, used, on eBay.

I agree with larger cylinders, if you plan to use it for cutting at all. You generally want an oxygen cylinder about 2x the capacity of your acetylene cylinder. and 80 and a 150 is still a fairly portable set.

I use oxy-acetylene, but I also use my set for soldering, brazing and welding.

KDub

 

[Ign]

please explain 1/7

Here's one of the better Google results I found
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/safety/fuel-your-safety-knowledge

In simplest terms if you ask too much of the acetylene cylinder in regards to flow rate you risk sucking acetone out. As I understand it this is like the poles of the earth de-stabilizing and you basically get the movie 2012 (this is sarcasm). But you might go BOOM

 

[RM209]

L.p. is a good cheap setup. My auto mech but used it a career and I did before plasma. If I was buying bottles today would look clist first. lotso setd, bigger tanks and lot less money. While there are deals on torches I got nothing against new here especially for new user.

This. Depending on where you live C-L can have many good deals. Give them a close look; some have been worked very hard for a long time and left out in the elements.

RM209

 

[FigureItOut]

I got nothing against new here especially for new user.

I agree, and that was the decision I made for myself. Not being very familiar with the equipment, I didn't think I could effectively evaluate the condition and safety of a used setup. I'd feel better buying used now, but unless tanks are included you just won't save a ton, when a new mid size Victor set can be had for $250-$300.

Bottles though, I'd absolutely buy used. Call your local LWS's, ask them what they are going to be looking for if you bring in an exchange tank, that'll tell you what to look for to make sure you'll be able to exchange it.



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[stihlntime]

Been using oxy/propane for 40 yrs. Buy the largest oxy bottle you can haul, just use 20 lbs propane BBQ bottle, easy to exchange anywhere 7 days a week. We use a torch extensively, mainly on pipe fence projects.

 

[doorfx]

Been using oxy/propane for 40 yrs. Buy the largest oxy bottle you can haul, just use 20 lbs propane BBQ bottle, easy to exchange anywhere 7 days a week. We use a torch extensively, mainly on pipe fence projects.

What pressures do you run for cutting ?

 

[sberry]

Victor has a guide for tip sizes and pressures. A number 1 is common and typical, 7# or so and it will cut 1/2 plate with 25 oxy if the tip is clean. Turn the fuel high enough it doesn't starve and want to burn back, for new users a bit more is a bit better and turn the O2 up till it burns thru.
Turn it up some on rudimentary work like the rods for speed.

 

[driz]

You get robbed blind and small cylinders when you fill them. I've got some and believe me I wouldn't do it again I got them for portability and that wasn't worth it either. You should be able to get 125's or you can buy your own from Indiana oxygen online which might be the cheaper option. Be careful with those small size torches if that's what you're after I have a victor journeyman set I've had for years and I finally switched it out for Harris from the 70s that I got off craigslist for a pittance and it's a much better torch. That journey minutes just so small in my hand the dials are a pain always rubbing on my **** for something unhappy going on. Usually the little mom-and-pop shop I'll give you a lot better deal than the mainstream guys like Airgas who seem to be in existence just in existence to rob the little guy.


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[Zeke]

I know I wont get much runtime out of one, but with resupply literally 2 miles away, I don't see this as an issue. I do understand there is something of a 1/7 rule about exhausting the Acetylene tank, but I don't fully understand it. /url]

please explain 1/7

Surprised no one has addressed this, at least I didn't see it in a post yet.

The rule of 1/7th is that you cannot take more than 1/7th of the contents out of the bottle per hour. AFAIK this is based on the amount left so as the bottle becomes empty you have to watch it. At half full you can draw 1/2 the rate as when full and so on.

Acetylene is dissolved in acetone inside the bottle and has to release itself (for lack of a better word) to become a gas and enter the regulator. If acetylene is allowed to release too fast it becomes unstable and some acetone may come out with the acetylene ruining your regulator.

There's more to it and you can Giggle it, but that's the gist of it.

Edit: Sorry, I meant per hour and I changed minute to hour. 1/7th per hour.

 

[sberry]

Agree, small gas bottle does not make enough to support much of a heating tip. A 140 acetylene is limited on rosebuds, it will run one in the Ranger class but a little small for a Journeyman.

 

[Ign]

You get robbed blind and small cylinders when you fill them. I've got some and believe me I wouldn't do it again I got them for portability and that wasn't worth it either. You should be able to get 125's or you can buy your own from Indiana oxygen online which might be the cheaper option. Be careful with those small size torches if that's what you're after I have a victor journeyman set I've had for years and I finally switched it out for Harris from the 70s that I got off craigslist for a pittance and it's a much better torch. That journey minutes just so small in my hand the dials are a pain always rubbing on my **** for something unhappy going on. Usually the little mom-and-pop shop I'll give you a lot better deal than the mainstream guys like Airgas who seem to be in existence just in existence to rob the little guy.


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This is an excellent point as well; cost to operate a porto-torch with any regularity becomes excessive. They're great to carry to quick or remote jobs as also noted in this thread, but there is no way I'd want it to be primary torch; it's almost like buying travel sizes of shampoo and shaving cream for everyday use vs buying the big bottles.

 

[Zeke]

Portable is a misnomer. Pretty much all bottles are portable and need nothing to go to work. But try and take anything larger than the ones referred to as 'portable' up to the roof or any other hard to get at place. But you can get a smaller shop set and go just about anywhere including the roof if you take one at a time.

The tiny bottles are all but useless except for HVAC guys that silver solder only. For them they will last a month or longer depending. If you're thinking of heating with a welding tip that's fine. Don't bother to try and use a cutting torch and never use a rose bud on the tiny bottles. They won't support the gas requirement.

 

[FigureItOut]

Surprised no one has addressed this, at least I didn't see it in a post yet.

AFAIK this is based on the amount left so as the bottle becomes empty you have to watch it. At half full you can draw 1/2 the rate as when full and so on.

.

I've never heard this, and I've read everything I could get my hands on about the subject. Have you specifically read or heard this somewhere credible?

It seems like the common phrasing is something like "1/7 of the capacity of the tank".

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[zendriver]

I use oxygen/propane. Suits my purpose but never would want a shop without them. Some things just won't come apart without heat. My Victor torches got to be 80 years old

Can you braze with the set up? Just curious as I'm thinking going this route


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[roche]

Interested in a oxy/propane setup. Link to a proper torche? Thanks!

 

[MoonRise]

Heating and cutting?

Oxy-propane. Just can't weld with it.

Make sure to get T rated hose if using fuel gas other than acetylene.

Use the correct tips for the fuel being used (most of the torches can handle the different fuels, just have to have the correct tip and the T type hose).

From a Victor catalog (where it appears multiple times):

http://training.victortechnologies.com/FrontPageNavigation/

WARNING: At no time should the withdrawal rate of an individual acetylene cylinder exceed 1/7 of the cylinder contents per hour. If additional flow capacity is required use an acetylene manifold system of sufficient size to supply the necessary volume.

Oxygen consumption (SCFH) is 1.1 times the acetylene under neutral flame conditions.

You look up the flow rate for the tip you are using (or thinking of using) and compare that to the tank size you have. Do the 1/7 calc and see if you can get enough flow of acetylene out of the tank you have to actually run the tip you are thinking of using.

example: You have a 75 cu ft acetylene tank and want to use a Victor rosebud heating tip MFA size #2. Chart says that tip uses 3-9 cfh of acetylene at 4-8 psi and oxygen at 3-10 cfh at 4-8 psi (not 'worrying' about the oxygen flow rate, just listing the numbers for completeness).

1/7 of the 75 cu ft tank is ~10 cfh. That tip needs 3 to 9 cfh, which is less than the tank can supply. You are OK.

Same tip, but trying to run it off of a 'portable' set up with a 20 cu ft oxygen cylinder and a 10 cu ft MC acetylene cylinder.

1/7 of the 10 cu ft tank is 10/7 cfh, or about 1.4 cfh. The tip needs 3-9 cfh of acetylene, so you are No Good here.

Just cutting? Plasma. $$$ to start though.

Brands? I'd stick with one of the 'big' names. Smith is now (for the past few years) under the Miller umbrella (ITW umbrella actually). Or Victor (part of ESAB now), or Harris (under Lincoln).

 

[L.Cheapo]

Some great information here. Thank you to all who have posted. I have not had a chance to stop by the LWS due to a family members health issues, but tomorrow looks like it might work. I had never heard of the 1/7 rule until I researched here, and it seems I may need to go with bigger tanks than I had originally intended. I'll see what they have, and how they work the sale/lease/exchange programs.

Thanks again.

 

[trackwelder]

Some great information here. Thank you to all who have posted. I have not had a chance to stop by the LWS due to a family members health issues, but tomorrow looks like it might work. I had never heard of the 1/7 rule until I researched here, and it seems I may need to go with bigger tanks than I had originally intended. I'll see what they have, and how they work the sale/lease/exchange programs.

Thanks again.

You can also manifold smaller acetylene tanks together to get the required gas if needed. We use to manifold two or three 300 cuft tanks together in the winter time to get the needed gas flow to complete a job.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Thank you, Ign. I'll have to stop by the LWS and see what size tanks they will sell me. When I got my tank for 75/25 for my 211, 60cuft was the largest they would SELL me. Anything larger would be leased, which I thought was odd. They do not like to refill tanks on the spot. I will use this so infrequently, that I would like to own the tanks.

Sounds similar to some area welding supply places:

They will sell the smaller tanks, and exchange them.

They will exchange larger tanks that they have leased to customers.

They will not exchange larger customer owned tanks..

This is something that would be beneficial to know before buying your own tanks from a private party.

Check the welding supplier's policy on exchanging customer owned tanks. Some welding supply retailers are even more strict...

 

[joel63]

http://training.victortechnologies.c...ageNavigation/

Excellent website.

Thanks MoonRise.

 

[brooksdr]

+1 for using Propane!

 

[May Pop]

If you have decided on a Smith Set (Which I have 2 sets 1 over 35 years old) consider ordering it from Zoro. They have 20-30% off days. Worth waiting for. Just sign up for the Eadds.

Ron

 

[Crazyjake8493]

Another vote for oxy-propane, as long as you don't need to weld. You can heat, cut, and braze with it. Propane should be a bit cheaper than acetylene, and if you have a bbq grill, then you already have at least one propane tank you can use. Propane tanks are a lot easier to exchange or refill, at least in most areas. You'll just need an oxygen tank, and a torch with propane tips.

I've been looking into getting a used oxygen concentrator to get a small oxy-propane setup going, just for heating and brazing.