J-Bolts or Hilti?

[fwillison]

I've gotten a couple of bids on my footings/slab concrete. I asked for J bolts to be placed in the wet concrete for use in securing the bottom plate. This is the method used when I worked as a summer construction laborer 30 years ago.

All the concrete guys try to talk me out of it, and say that they recommend fastening with shell-fired guns (eg. Hilti) or other methods.

This doesn't sound nearly as secure.

What is the method used these days?

Fred
Tulsa

 

[1/2 Cup]

Call me old fashioned, but I would use J bolts if it were mine.
At work our standard specifications for any construction works expressly precludes their use.
Chemset anchors are another option.

 

[ed_v]

I vote j-bolt also.

Ed

 

[Desertwndrr]

They are recommending shot pins?!?!? No way. I'm not sure that pins even meet any building code for exterior plate to foundation connections.

J-bolts are a great way to go and inexpensive. Another option would be to use Simpson TITAN bolts. No less than 1/2" x 6" to secure the bottom plate to the foundation.

 

[Helipilot]

I am a commercial contractor and I vote for "J" bolts also. The Hilti are OK if the slab has been poured and finished already. The J bolts are better if installed at the time the slab is formed and poured.

Good Luck on your project!

 

[Moose97]

Anchor bolts are required by code. You can't meet the wind requirements without them. Code requires every 6 feet and at least 2 per board. I would do every 3 to 4 feet. Ram-sets or Hilti's are a good addition to anchor bolts but not in place of. You can use them to shoot down interior walls for added stability. The last building I built I used anchor bolts every 3 feet and ram-sets every foot.

 

[kwb]

Epoxy set is stronger than a J-bolt.

Supposedly in extreme loading the J-bolt will straighten and be able to be pulled out, where an epoxy set anchor will not do this.

 

[southernfriedcj]

Anchor bolts are required by code.

Not by residential code(if it's in the book it's not enforced in any of the places I build in GA).

The only J bolts required are 2 placed on either side of a garage door opening.

Every where else you can use mud sill anchors.

Around here is you miss a mud sill anchor you can use a Hilti in it's place.

I prefer the J bolts over mud sill anchors though. I haven't researched the epoxy set bolts.

No matter, if a tornado comes through the only thing left on the foundation will be the plates.

The only building we ever built that was tied together from the slab to the roof was a 3 story wood framed apartment building.
It was 24 unit building and I would guess there was at least 50lbs per until of Simpson straps, hanger, ties, nails, ect.

 

[MOwens]

J-bolts are the only thing that will pass our building inspector, just make sure you double check the template dimensions.

 

[Doozer75]

Any concrete nails or shot in fastener nails will create an extreme stress point and the concrete will likely crack there. Especially at the edge of the slab. Asking for lots of cracks in my opinion. Concrete is a ceramic composite. It is brittle and somewhat fragile. Work with it as such.
I like J-bolts. Although I once must have gotten a soft one, the nut kept tightening like either it was stretching or pulling out. They are grade 2 steel (if that).
Chemical anchors (epoxy) are very good. I used to use Hilti 5/8" glass capsule chemical anchors on DOT bridge construction jobs. The bond is stronger than the concrete. If you try an pull one out (vertically) with a crane, it comes out with a chunk of concrete attached to it. That's why I say they are stronger than the concrete.
The farm store sells some 1/2" bent eye bolts with a long (6"?) shank. Zinc plated too. I think these would be good for foundation bolts.

--Doozer

 

[sparky36000]

I think they are trying to talk you out of j bolts so they don't have to hand finish around them. Less labor for them. I'd have them put the j bolts in.

 

[Rookie2]

There are plenty of anchors available that require only a drilled hole (any diameter).

 

[fwillison]

Sounds like J-Bolts are the way to go. The framer tried to talk me out of them also. More labor for him too, I guess.

F

 

[Desertwndrr]

That's amazing to me that they are bent on cutting that corner. No way you would ever get a structure approved with only shot pins in the exterior wall. Those are only for the interior walls and as far as I'm concerned, they are only good to hold the wall until the construction adhesive under the bottom plate sets up.

Definitely use J-bolts. There is also a galvanized J-bolt required here locally in commercial applications or where the bolts go thru salt treated plate. You may want to consider them if you live in a moist environment. I use the TITAN anchor bolt wherever the J-bolt does not land correctly. Bolts are required every 36", on both sides of every opening, and within 12" of every break in a bottom plate. This is according to the IBC code.

 

[McCarthy]

No way with a shot in method . As for the J bolt V's Hilti chemical anchors , either are excellent. We used to use only J bolts at work but now use stainless steel chemical anchors. If the concrete is good and the holes correctly drilled and cleaned out they are every bit as good in my opinion.

 

[Ray Kelly]

Either way. It doesn't matter. I nailed mine and I usually use the J bolts to secure the posts. But if that's the way you want then go for it. You'll only need one on each side. Then you can put a few more nails with your gun.

 

[Nicholas]

Shot pins are fine for non bearing, non sheared interior walls. Any bearing or sheared wall should have bolts. They really don't add much work at all.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

LDT...Google it.
J-Bolts are nothing but a PITA. I don't think I've read a single reason here to convince me to ever use em. I didn't use em, never would either.

The mill where my dad worked RARELY wet-set any anchors...LDT type or Epoxy if you want something strong.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Inspector in Edmond, OK will require J bolts.

Not saying this COULDN'T HAPPEN:

Supposedly in extreme loading the J-bolt will straighten and be able to be pulled out, where an epoxy set anchor will not do this.

But, I would like to see photos of that failure, and I don't mean a test procecudure, but actual failure. If it did actually happen, my guess is the entire building was wiped out by a tornado, and that no fastening system would have saved it.

 

[Bomber Frank]

In a former life, I installed thousands of the Hilti epoxy units. It was called 'Hilti Hit'.
At first they started out as a glass tube that you had to break in the hole and agitate with the anchor, but were later switched to a double tube application. This was way better, but the cost of the applicator gun may be too much for one project.
What I like about the epoxy anchors? You don't have to have it right, like when you install J Hooks. You can put them in when you have the wall framed and get it right...every time.

 

[southernfriedcj]

LDT...Google it.
J-Bolts are nothing but a PITA. I don't think I've read a single reason here to convince me to ever use em. I didn't use em, never would either.

The mill where my dad worked RARELY wet-set any anchors...LDT type or Epoxy if you want something strong.

In a former life, I installed thousands of the Hilti epoxy units. It was called 'Hilti Hit'.
At first they started out as a glass tube that you had to break in the hole and agitate with the anchor, but were later switched to a double tube application. This was way better, but the cost of the applicator gun may be too much for one project.
What I like about the epoxy anchors? You don't have to have it right, like when you install J Hooks. You can put them in when you have the wall framed and get it right...every time.

Can y'all provide a link to the epoxy product you use?

I assume you just go back after the wall is raised and nailed(cut nail or Hilti) and drill through the blue plate and into the slab, blow the hole out, inject epoxy and set the bolt?

That would surely beat wrestling the framed wall up over J bolts and hoping all the holes line up.

 

[joes169]

I've gotten a couple of bids on my footings/slab concrete. I asked for J bolts to be placed in the wet concrete for use in securing the bottom plate. This is the method used when I worked as a summer construction laborer 30 years ago.

All the concrete guys try to talk me out of it, and say that they recommend fastening with shell-fired guns (eg. Hilti) or other methods.

This doesn't sound nearly as secure.

What is the method used these days?

Fred
Tulsa

There's no way I'd skip the cast in place anchor bolts in OK. They're trying to save a few minutes and $30-$50 in anchor bolts, but it will likely cost you a few hundred dollars in epoxy and anchors, as well as a few hours time drilling, cleaning holes, and epoxying. I'd check with your local building inspector to ensure you don't need an epoxy inspection going that route as well.........

 

[Bomber Frank]

http://www.hilti.com/holcom/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?nodeId=-11214

Southernfried,
Here is the link to the product, I am sure you will be able to find the applicator gun from here.
I really like the flexibility of using this product, it allows you to stand the walls and anchor where needed. This product is super strong when cured, it will not pull out, rather it will take the concrete with it. The concrete fails before this will let go.
We anchored research greenhouses to foundations with this product all over North America, these were buildings for universities and government agencies.
It works.

 

[WNYflyer]

I suppose in theory J-Bolts could straighten out but in light weight low rise structures highly unlikely. But of course they take some thinking and proper layout/forming to get right since they are installed when concrete is poured.

Post installed anchors are used quite often these days for smaller structures. When I say post installed I am talking about threaded rod epoxied into a drilled hole in the concrete. The only potential problem with those is if you have a ton of rebar in the concrete where you are drilling and also drilling next to a concrete edge and potentially cracking out the concrete at that spot.We use them all the time when setting pumps, fans, columns. Of course for a structure they must be sized properly for material/diameter/hole size/embedment/edge distances.

When using the epoxies you need to read the directions carefully concerning hole diameter, working temperatures, cleaning out holes, etc. A lot more variables that can get screwed up relative to a J-Bolt that relies on mechanical anchorage. But for a home owner type structures I see no reason why epoxied grouted threaded rod would not work unless code would not allow it. They obviously give the contractor much more flexibility in his construction. We tend to specify Hilti RE-500 epoxy since it is seismically pre-qualified but there are many similar epoxies out there.

Shot in pins/nails, etc. no way for any wall that will see shear and uplifts from wind/seismic etc.

As others have mentioned may want to touch base with your local code official if you have one so you don't run into any code problems down the road.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Can y'all provide a link to the epoxy product you use?

I assume you just go back after the wall is raised and nailed(cut nail or Hilti) and drill through the blue plate and into the slab, blow the hole out, inject epoxy and set the bolt?

That would surely beat wrestling the framed wall up over J bolts and hoping all the holes line up.

LDT isn't an epoxy product...its a threaded anchor. LDT = Large Diameter Tapcon. I believe Simpson makes their own version as well. SOOO much easier as you mentioned to stand the wall up, square it, and THEN anchor it. No need to drill 1-1/2" holes in your sill plate so you can square things up. Stronger then J-Bolts too. Easy to make comments like that, but seriously here in the real world...J-Bolts/LDT/Epoxy, all will be stronger then the wood in the sill and wall.. If I were to drive my tractor thru a wall, I bet 50 bucks the wood get destroyed to hell and the LDT's are sitting there right in place. Same would apply to whatever Mother Nature dishes out.

There's no way I'd skip the cast in place anchor bolts in OK. They're trying to save a few minutes and $30-$50 in anchor bolts, but it will likely cost you a few hundred dollars in epoxy and anchors, as well as a few hours time drilling, cleaning holes, and epoxying. I'd check with your local building inspector to ensure you don't need an epoxy inspection going that route as well.........

Doubt there is any savings at all. The LDT's I needed for my 30x50 would have been +/- the same price, much easier, stronger and I have a machine finished slab from edge to edge.

There was a comment earlier above about the applicator gun being a deal breaker...I can understand that, but for small time users like we are talking, RedHead makes an Epoxy cartridge which goes into a standard caulking gun.

I chose not to go with epoxy because of the speed/cleanliness issue. To make a perfect epoxy anchor you gotta drill, brush & clean hole, then epoxy...which is sort of difficult when you got the wood of the sill there. With the LDT's, we squared up a wall...I'd go around with the SDS Drill making holes, my dad was right behind me with the LDT's and my Impact Gun. 5 Minutes to do a 50' wall.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Inspector in Edmond, OK will require J bolts.

Not saying this COULDN'T HAPPEN:

Supposedly in extreme loading the J-bolt will straighten and be able to be pulled out, where an epoxy set anchor will not do this.

But, I would like to see photos of that failure, and I don't mean a test procecudure, but actual failure. If it did actually happen, my guess is the entire building was wiped out by a tornado, and that no fastening system would have saved it.

Honestly, if you're worried about J-bolts straightening and pulling out, I think you have bigger things to worry about. . . like if anything is left attached to the sill plate.

 

[Falcon67]

Not by residential code(if it's in the book it's not enforced in any of the places I build in GA).

The only J bolts required are 2 placed on either side of a garage door opening.

Every where else you can use mud sill anchors.

Around here is you miss a mud sill anchor you can use a Hilti in it's place.

I prefer the J bolts over mud sill anchors though. I haven't researched the epoxy set bolts.

No matter, if a tornado comes through the only thing left on the foundation will be the plates.

The only building we ever built that was tied together from the slab to the roof was a 3 story wood framed apartment building.
It was 24 unit building and I would guess there was at least 50lbs per until of Simpson straps, hanger, ties, nails, ect.

It's in the UBC which is usually adopted by most jurisdictions. It's in our code and we're only 2600 people. Min every 6' and withing 12" of corners.

 

[Kevin54]

No way would I trust anything shot in. The only thing that does is keep a wall from shifting sideways. I would have them put in J-Bolts whether they want to or not. It's your garage and not theirs.

Around here some of the contractors put in straps and that's what they did on my garage. I'm not overly enthusiastic about those either. When i built the wifes building, it was J-bolts all around.

And like Nutts stated....if a J-bolt straightens out, you're having more to worry about than just the anchor.

I have a couple of spots in my garage floor where the concrete is busted out. That can from me shooting anchors into the floor to keep a bar counter anchored down. They didn't anchor anything. All they did was keep the bottom of the counter from shifting sideways.

 

[egdede]

There's no way I'd skip the cast in place anchor bolts in OK. They're trying to save a few minutes and $30-$50 in anchor bolts, but it will likely cost you a few hundred dollars in epoxy and anchors, as well as a few hours time drilling, cleaning holes, and epoxying. I'd check with your local building inspector to ensure you don't need an epoxy inspection going that route as well.........

What he said. In my jurisdiction the inspector will not allow a home -owner to place his own epoxy. If I recall correctly, my neighbor paid $85 for the inspector to fill and inspect four epoxy holes in a remodel (Epoxy supplied by my neighbor).

 

[Cyberbear]

No comparison between 1/2" anchor bolts and shot pins, a no brainer as I see it. Shot pins are adequate for interior walls to prevent the bottom sill from moving, but that's it.
When the next earthquake rolls through you'll be glad bolts were used, not pins.