Just got a new compressor for the shop.
- Thread starter gsracer
- Start date
Very nice Champion.
kbkna
Well-known member
Wahooooo! What a nice setup that will be. It looks like your in the salvage business?
Yea were in the salvage business.
We have a tire machine running almost all day at times, and about 20 air guns of which probably 10 are running continuously. The size is probably over kill for what we use CFM wise but the property we are on is very large, and the distance to the last 5 guns is about 600 ft.
I will be removing the existing 1/2 and 3/4 pvc thats running to almost all of the yard and replacing it with a main line of 1.5 inches all the way to the back and drops for the hoses of 1 inch all in galvanized steel with water traps, all running down hill.
We have a tire machine running almost all day at times, and about 20 air guns of which probably 10 are running continuously. The size is probably over kill for what we use CFM wise but the property we are on is very large, and the distance to the last 5 guns is about 600 ft.
I will be removing the existing 1/2 and 3/4 pvc thats running to almost all of the yard and replacing it with a main line of 1.5 inches all the way to the back and drops for the hoses of 1 inch all in galvanized steel with water traps, all running down hill.
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GeneralDisorder
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I would not run galv. pipe for air. Too much corrosion potential and I see no aftercooler or condensate drain on that machine..... you don't want that **** in your guns. Copper is best.
Also - protect your investment - plum in a condensate drain (timed auto drain or float drain) to keep the moisture out of the tank and if you really want quality air plumb in an aftercooler between the air-end and the tank.
Sounds like you are running a lot of air - make sure you don't short-cycle that motor and control setup. Those cheap starters they use on the production machines are not designed to start more than about 6 to 8 times per hour and if you short cycle them you will blow the starter apart and it will toss that control panel across the room in the process. Is the machine wired for start/stop or hand/off/auto operation? If it's a start/stop then make sure your pressure switch is setup for a fairly wide pressure differential - at least 40 psi maybe more. If it's HOA control then tell the guys to flip it over to Hand mode for high consumption periods so the machine will just run against it's unloader.
For your usage I would have gone with a small rotary screw - much lower operating cost and fewer moving parts - you can easily put 50 to 100 thousand hours on a decent screw before it would need a major overhaul. The relatively inexpensive recips like the Champion's will not take the kind of abuse your shop would seem capable of given that many tools in operation at all times.
GD
Also - protect your investment - plum in a condensate drain (timed auto drain or float drain) to keep the moisture out of the tank and if you really want quality air plumb in an aftercooler between the air-end and the tank.
Sounds like you are running a lot of air - make sure you don't short-cycle that motor and control setup. Those cheap starters they use on the production machines are not designed to start more than about 6 to 8 times per hour and if you short cycle them you will blow the starter apart and it will toss that control panel across the room in the process. Is the machine wired for start/stop or hand/off/auto operation? If it's a start/stop then make sure your pressure switch is setup for a fairly wide pressure differential - at least 40 psi maybe more. If it's HOA control then tell the guys to flip it over to Hand mode for high consumption periods so the machine will just run against it's unloader.
For your usage I would have gone with a small rotary screw - much lower operating cost and fewer moving parts - you can easily put 50 to 100 thousand hours on a decent screw before it would need a major overhaul. The relatively inexpensive recips like the Champion's will not take the kind of abuse your shop would seem capable of given that many tools in operation at all times.
GD
bsaint
Well-known member
I disagree. He bought the right champion pump. It looks like an R series not a VR series. I worked for a champion distributor and Ill recommend a disc valve over a reed valve champion any day of the week. Would a Sullair LS100-25 VFD work just as well? Maybe. But I think it would be over 8 g's. 8 g's barely gets you a new ES8-15. I also think a screw is better for a constant demand process (think laser cutting machine) rather than a erractic demand like tool usage.
As you know the maintenance on the champion will be WAY less than a screw AND a piston is more efficient than a screw any day of the week. If the OP takes care of it, it should last a LONG time. Use Lubriplate or genuine Champion fluid ONLY. Don't get that hardware store ****.
Also I agree with running it ONLOAD/OFFLOAD more than STOP/START especially at 25 hp and especially if you are running it off 230 3ø
As you know the maintenance on the champion will be WAY less than a screw AND a piston is more efficient than a screw any day of the week. If the OP takes care of it, it should last a LONG time. Use Lubriplate or genuine Champion fluid ONLY. Don't get that hardware store ****.
Also I agree with running it ONLOAD/OFFLOAD more than STOP/START especially at 25 hp and especially if you are running it off 230 3ø
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Yea, i was told by several that rotary was more for constant demand and not erratic demand as said above. As posted by Bsaint it is indeed an R series.
There is a condensate drain at the bottom of the tank.
As for the start stop we had the current compressor to stop at 200psi and start at 150 so i thought thats how i would work this one unless you guys have other recommendations.
Being in the recycling business, plus the area we are in, copper is out of the question, people will steal it off the wall for recycling (around here they steal the 600 pair telco cable off the poles) not to mention that 600 feet of copper tubing will likely cost a lot. If galvanized is out of the question what do you guys recommend, id like to stay away from pvc when that stuff blows it causes shrapnel and I've already had an employee injured as a result.
As for water control i thought the automatic valve in the compressor plus running it down hill with several water traps along the way should stop most of the water from getting in the guns.
There is a condensate drain at the bottom of the tank.
As for the start stop we had the current compressor to stop at 200psi and start at 150 so i thought thats how i would work this one unless you guys have other recommendations.
Being in the recycling business, plus the area we are in, copper is out of the question, people will steal it off the wall for recycling (around here they steal the 600 pair telco cable off the poles) not to mention that 600 feet of copper tubing will likely cost a lot. If galvanized is out of the question what do you guys recommend, id like to stay away from pvc when that stuff blows it causes shrapnel and I've already had an employee injured as a result.
As for water control i thought the automatic valve in the compressor plus running it down hill with several water traps along the way should stop most of the water from getting in the guns.
bsaint
Well-known member
What actually will work best will be a slight incline and when you tee off, point them up and go up over and down using 3 6" *******. Think hangman. Then at the end have an elbow pointed down with a 12" minimum ****** and a ball valve. I recommend a refrigerated air dryer if its a heated compressor room, if not a twin cylinder desiccant dryer. If you can't do copper then you can do black with an air dryer you should be OK for a long time before the inside would scale. What if you ran the copper WAY up high no one would get too and use black for your drops?
Looking again at your manifolds, I don't think you have the constant run option which would make it so you can use pilot air to hold open your intake valves. I dont know if those pumps are rated for more than 175#. If you can get the constant run intake manifolds, it would be fairly easy to set it up so that you can run ON/OFF load using a pilot valve unloader, then using a pet **** valve, switch it to Start/Stop on light use days.
I was looking online and you should match your compressor with a 110 - 125 CFM air dryer if you go refrigerated. Too big it'll ice up and too small it wont work.
Looking again at your manifolds, I don't think you have the constant run option which would make it so you can use pilot air to hold open your intake valves. I dont know if those pumps are rated for more than 175#. If you can get the constant run intake manifolds, it would be fairly easy to set it up so that you can run ON/OFF load using a pilot valve unloader, then using a pet **** valve, switch it to Start/Stop on light use days.
I was looking online and you should match your compressor with a 110 - 125 CFM air dryer if you go refrigerated. Too big it'll ice up and too small it wont work.
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yea looking again at the specs its maximum rated 175 psi, so i guess i can give it a wide swing. The existing 10 hp compressor would barely keep up some days and take about 30 minutes to fill the some 600+ feet of pipe plus its 120 gallon and 80 gallon tank i had plumbed in. Not to mention is probably 15 -20 years old, nor the fact that there was zero water traps before. It has lasted so long because we are meticulous with maintenance every day someone drains the tank, and 90 days we change the oil. To be honest i started to feel like it was a ticking time bomb before the tank ruptured.
I do not think we got the continuos run option on this one, when i get back tomorrow ill take a better look. When you say black pipe your referring to iron sch 40 i assume?
Hmm now I'm worried i may have gone too big on the compressor.
As for the existing 10 hp its very sporadic there are days that it runs 3 times a day, there are days that it runs all day save for the lunch hour.
The idea i had for the plumbing was to run up to the top of the shop 25 feet at an about a 60 degree angle initially so what ever water would roll down hill till below the feed from the unit, the unit will Feed into a T in this line with a ball valve about 4 feet bellow where the compressor was feeding into, then i was gonna drop the pipe about 2 feet per 100 feet till i got to the end of the 600 foot run with water traps and ball valves on every drop leg and one at the end.
I don't know if that makes any sense, its hard to visualize i guess.
I do not think we got the continuos run option on this one, when i get back tomorrow ill take a better look. When you say black pipe your referring to iron sch 40 i assume?
Hmm now I'm worried i may have gone too big on the compressor.
As for the existing 10 hp its very sporadic there are days that it runs 3 times a day, there are days that it runs all day save for the lunch hour.
The idea i had for the plumbing was to run up to the top of the shop 25 feet at an about a 60 degree angle initially so what ever water would roll down hill till below the feed from the unit, the unit will Feed into a T in this line with a ball valve about 4 feet bellow where the compressor was feeding into, then i was gonna drop the pipe about 2 feet per 100 feet till i got to the end of the 600 foot run with water traps and ball valves on every drop leg and one at the end.
I don't know if that makes any sense, its hard to visualize i guess.
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bsaint
Well-known member
The best part about a piston machine is that UNLIKE a screw, it doesn't care if you run it a little or a lot. Only the power company and motor service factor come into play. A rotary screw is designed to be LOADED 80% or more of the time. Also a screw is more finicky as to oil temperature. Don't run it long enough and you'll get a ton of water in your oil which can pit the air end and bearings and clog up controls. Again I think you made a good choice. If 25 hp isn't going to kill you to run, then you're OK. In hindsight the only thing I would've recommend different is a 10 or 15 hp duplex. That way you can alternate between the two or if your air demand was nuts, then you could have essentially 20 - 30 hp on demand. The only thing is, more maintenance because you have two compressors sitting on one tank. So its a trade off. I like the redundancy factor of a duplex. If one goes down, you at least can get by 50% demand.
Every R pump has an unload option you can buy after the matter. So I would install the compressor as is for now, and do your own energy air study if you have the time. This would let you know if you would benefit from having a champion distributor retrofit one for you. I'm sure you could do it, but sometimes the plumbing can get confusing and adjustments on the pilot control valve is temperamental. If you do decide to do it yourself, put the swing of the constant run valve (differential) within your pressure switch differential.
I get what you want to do. I think if you want to go by steam code, you can use I think its 6" over 100' or something like that and still Tee UP off the main line then come over and down. Especially if you aren't going to use an air dryer. This is more effective than water traps in air lines. If you use an air dryer you can make it level.
Every R pump has an unload option you can buy after the matter. So I would install the compressor as is for now, and do your own energy air study if you have the time. This would let you know if you would benefit from having a champion distributor retrofit one for you. I'm sure you could do it, but sometimes the plumbing can get confusing and adjustments on the pilot control valve is temperamental. If you do decide to do it yourself, put the swing of the constant run valve (differential) within your pressure switch differential.
I get what you want to do. I think if you want to go by steam code, you can use I think its 6" over 100' or something like that and still Tee UP off the main line then come over and down. Especially if you aren't going to use an air dryer. This is more effective than water traps in air lines. If you use an air dryer you can make it level.
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bsaint
Well-known member
Also Galvi really isnt THAT bad. I've used it to pipe in glass recycling plants.
GeneralDisorder
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Being a disc-valve machine you should get the unloader option that bsaint mentioned. You can do it with a mechanical setup where you have the pilot set below the pressure switch and a manual gate or ball valve for enabling the pilot control - then you don't have to retrofit the HOA electrical controls.
Even though the machine it setup for 175 psi - unless you have pressure drop at the extents of your piping I would not necessarily run it at it's max operating pressure. Run it at 150 and you greatly increase the life of the machine and the motor. Everything will stay cooler. And if you had the pilot control setup then you could just let it run at 150 psi with a 20 psi load differential and it would be a happy camper.
Obviously an air-system audit would be needed to tell if you really could effectively use a screw but it sounded initially like you have a lot of guys using at least 10 air tools 8 hours a day. Les Schwab for example (large tire chain out west here) has all their stores running screws and has far less than 10 guys running air tools all the time....
GD
Even though the machine it setup for 175 psi - unless you have pressure drop at the extents of your piping I would not necessarily run it at it's max operating pressure. Run it at 150 and you greatly increase the life of the machine and the motor. Everything will stay cooler. And if you had the pilot control setup then you could just let it run at 150 psi with a 20 psi load differential and it would be a happy camper.
Obviously an air-system audit would be needed to tell if you really could effectively use a screw but it sounded initially like you have a lot of guys using at least 10 air tools 8 hours a day. Les Schwab for example (large tire chain out west here) has all their stores running screws and has far less than 10 guys running air tools all the time....
GD
Canadian Cowboy
Well-known member
Copper is not the material to use on a high pressure compressed air system at 175psi it is not a safe material to use it can split,also from a price point it is not cost effective as type L or K copper is expensive nowadays.
CC
stonesfan68
Well-known member
I've written this before and I'll write it again: The company that I work for makes custom compressor packages (125HP+) for offshore oil rigs and the major oil companies (XOM, Shell, Chevron) all accept galvanized pipe and fittings for compressed air. There's nothing wrong with galvanized pipe at all, especially in an outdoor installation as seems to be described here.
GeneralDisorder
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Don't know where you got that idea. Copper is perfectly safe at the required pressures of everyday compressed air. Many machines use standard copper tubing for discharge pipeing as well as intercooler and aftercooler assemblies. My whole shop is plumbed with sweated copper and was installed by myslef and three other guys who RUN the service department at one of the largest compressor manufactures and distributors on the west coast.
Your information is simply innacurate or mistaken.
Here's a working pressure chart for copper pipe:
http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/cth/tables/cth_table3c.html
GD
GeneralDisorder
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It's *ok* yes. Especially if you have point-of-use fitration and even more true of oil-flooded screw machines as they end up lubricating everything anyway.
But it's not ideal.
I also worked for a compressor company that also builds off-shore oil rig compressors among other applications in the 5 HP to 1000 HP catagory. Both oil free and oil flooded screw machines at two manufacturing facilities. They are also a distributor for many more types of equipment in and around the pump industry - vacuum, blower, recips, etc.
GD
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Canadian Cowboy
Well-known member
First of all type M copper pipe is for domestic potable water (liquid) not air.
In Canada you cannot use type M copper for compressed air or any other inert gas system you also cannot use sweat (soldered) connections.
The min.to meet the TSSA standards is type L copper and all connections have to be sil-flossed and not (sweated)/soldered.
The North American ASTM code which includes the US is more or less the same.
Section 2.02 Page 15,
http://www.sandia.gov/engstds/ConstSpecs/Div_15/15051_Piping_Systems.pdf
CC
GeneralDisorder
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ASTM B88 allows the use of type K and L for compressed air and sweated connections are allowed. My installation is perfectly legal and though I did use thick walled copper even type M is plenty capable of handling the 150 psi my system runs at. It's rated at nearly 400 psi.....
Sorry about your luck in Canada.
I don't build Nuclear reactors so that PDF is of little concern to me. If I did I would be very interested in that document I'm sure..... but I'm just a guy with a need to run some air around my shop....
GD
Sorry about your luck in Canada.
I don't build Nuclear reactors so that PDF is of little concern to me. If I did I would be very interested in that document I'm sure..... but I'm just a guy with a need to run some air around my shop....
GD
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bsaint
Well-known member
GD knows as well as I do type copper is the all around best solution for compressed air piping. FAST to install, looks great, last forever (unless you put it in a plating shop.)
Canadian cowboy, I am confused, you say don't use copper, use type L or K instead. Thats all copper. To relate it to iron pipe, you could say its just a different schedule. As a professional compressed air installer at one time, we would never use type M. It would be OK but its just too thin for our insurance companies liking lol.
Also to support GD, Ill telly you all some of our systems now use type K to supply 350 psi high pressure nitrogen to their systems via 1 1/4" dia piping. Copper pipe over all is great. Best value over that aluminum ****, iron pipe, or galvi. Everyone can read their text books about theoretical scenarios, but real life experiences says buy yourself mapp gas, a container of Nokorode, 50/50 solder. Keep it all clean and wipe your joints with a damp rag just after the solder cools and you'll have connections that'll last forever.
Canadian cowboy, I am confused, you say don't use copper, use type L or K instead. Thats all copper. To relate it to iron pipe, you could say its just a different schedule. As a professional compressed air installer at one time, we would never use type M. It would be OK but its just too thin for our insurance companies liking lol.
Also to support GD, Ill telly you all some of our systems now use type K to supply 350 psi high pressure nitrogen to their systems via 1 1/4" dia piping. Copper pipe over all is great. Best value over that aluminum ****, iron pipe, or galvi. Everyone can read their text books about theoretical scenarios, but real life experiences says buy yourself mapp gas, a container of Nokorode, 50/50 solder. Keep it all clean and wipe your joints with a damp rag just after the solder cools and you'll have connections that'll last forever.
I've always wondered if you could run copper inside a larger PVC pipe to protect it - copper tends to be easily damaged but put inside a PVC runner seems like it would be a good solution. PVC unless exposed to UV will last a really long time and remain pliable. I took a pick axe to some buried for 2 years and couldn't cut it - I eventually gave up and got a hack saw. Also has the side benefit of hiding the expensive copper inside to thieves.
bsaint
Well-known member
How would you do 90's?