Keep water supply line from freezing over 900' run

[hellspcangel911]

Hi All,
Heres a fun one- while its not a garage per se, I think the great minds of GJ might appreciate the challenge of this predicament. I have a small cottage/work shop that gets its water from a shared well at the bottom of the hill, approximately 900 of 1" poly. Some of the pipe is burried, but several sections are exposed, draped along the rocky ledge, and engulfed in vines and brush.
Usually it gets enough sun and warms up during the day not to be an issue, keeping the faucet dripping overnight on the cold teens nights is usually sufficient. If the forecast calls for single digit temps I drain line so it doesnt freeze and burst.
Ideally, the line would be buried, the terrain really doesnt allow for that. Running 900' of heat tape also isnt viable, really neither is trying to insulate it as its probably 25 years old and engulfed by the vegetation.
I was trying to come up with a work around retrofit, if this is stupid please let me know.
Setup a compressor at the bottom of the hill to inject air into the supply line, then at the top, in the basement of the cottage setup an automatic air release valve before it goes to the jet pump and tank?
Open to any ideas other than spending $40k on drilling a new well at the top of the hill

Thank you

 

[Dagny]

Boy

 

[mike93lx]

Storage tank at the cottage and a check valve with a vent/drain on the uphill side? Have the pump trigger by a float in the tank.

If you can stop the pump from frequently turning on, the waste 36ish gallons from the line draining out may not be too bad.

 

[Dagny]

No cheap solutions

 

[hellspcangel911]

The storage tank idea works, it just the amount of space it takes up, and keeping it clean. If the float switch triggered and the line filled, I would have to vent the air out as the tank fills, then after its full, the supply line would have to drain out - about 40 gallons of water would be lost during every cycle.

 

[mike93lx]

The storage tank idea works, it just the amount of space it takes up, and keeping it clean. If the float switch triggered and the line filled, I would have to vent the air out as the tank fills, then after its full, the supply line would have to drain out - about 40 gallons of water would be lost during every cycle.

Yeah, that's why I was trying to make it cycle less infrequently with a tank... How much water do you need up there?

 

[PCustoms]

Can you dump a bunch of dirt over it?

Only other thing I can think is some semi-automated blowout where the pipe is dry when it's cold

 

[hellspcangel911]

yea thats fair, I like

Yeah, that's why I was trying to make it cycle less infrequently with a tank... How much water do you need up there?

true, the larger the tank the lower the loss. It doesnt need much water, just a bathroom, but its a short term rental (think AirBnB), so water conservation isnt really on their mind. I used to only offer it for three seasons, but with the increasing real estate tax bill the additional rental time has been a great.

 

[hellspcangel911]

Can you dump a bunch of dirt over it?

Only other thing I can think is some semi-automated blowout where the pipe is dry when it's cold

I cant access it to really dump anything substantial over it. Fall cleanups lawn clippings, even some fallen trees/branches go over it every year and its a drop in a bucket.
Thankfully gravity makes that a breeze, but then I'm back to Mike's suggestion of a tank for efficiency and so theres no time without water.

 

[The Cobbler]

how much water do you need daily? would a 45 gallon drum be sufficient? fill it manually as needed, and use a small rv type pump to pressurize your system.

The storage tank idea works,

 

[hellspcangel911]

Can you dump a bunch of dirt over it?

Only other thing I can think is some semi-automated blowout where the pipe is dry when it's cold

how much water do you need daily? would a 45 gallon drum be sufficient? fill it manually as needed, and use a small rv type pump to pressurize your system.

Probably closer to double that. I'd like to find a cost effective way to do something 'automatic', Thats why I was thinking of the air compressor, use the air to keep the water moving and prevent it from freezing up momentarily. I thought of the idea after reading about a similar situation with a 120' run where the person ran a second line and installed a pump to keep water flowing in the loop.

 

[CoogarXR]

The storage tank idea works, it just the amount of space it takes up, and keeping it clean. If the float switch triggered and the line filled, I would have to vent the air out as the tank fills, then after its full, the supply line would have to drain out - about 40 gallons of water would be lost during every cycle.

Could you bury a cistern at the cottage? Then you'd have all the storage you need with no internal square footage lost.

 

[mike93lx]

Probably closer to double that. I'd like to find a cost effective way to do something 'automatic', Thats why I was thinking of the air compressor, use the air to keep the water moving and prevent it from freezing up momentarily. I thought of the idea after reading about a similar situation with a 120' run where the person ran a second line and installed a pump to keep water flowing in the loop.

Whats the elevation? I imagine that could burn up a lot of power.

Similarly, a failure on the compressor, or a leak, could get very costly with power consumption

 

[hellspcangel911]

Could you bury a cistern at the cottage? Then you'd have all the storage you need with no internal square footage lost.

Sadly I can’t, it’s all ledge and a small lot, but I like the way you think

 

[hellspcangel911]

Whats the elevation? I imagine that could burn up a lot of power.

Similarly, a failure on the compressor, or a leak, could get very costly with power consumption

It’s about a 100’. I’ve seen “bubblers” around the legs of docks and boat lifts that basically do the same thing, pump air about a foot below the surface and as the air rises it disturbs the water so it doesn’t freeze.
You’re right, there’s an added marginal expense but it allows me to keep the rental Available and thereby paying itself.

 

[The Cobbler]

so this is for renters then ?

 

[rsanter]

how about a recirculating system that kept the water flowing in the winter.
The moving water won't freeze and you won't actually waste any water

 

[hellspcangel911]

Yes, its a studio/loft/workshop, See post #8

 

[hellspcangel911]

how about a recirculating system that kept the water flowing in the winter.
The moving water won't freeze and you won't actually waste any water

Doesn’t seem practical on 900’ with 100’ head?

 

[The Cobbler]

100’ head?

I don't think head comes in to play when there's equal head on both sides ( supply & return)

 

[Tom Sestito]

How about these:
- use gravity, remove low spots, drain as needed
- cover with rigid insulation and some dirt as mentioned (doesn't sound like it gets too cold where you are so insulation by itself might work
- fill a tank to tide you over the colder times

 

[The Cobbler]

self regulating heat tape that inserts into the ID of the pipe .
it's not long enough I realize, but there may be other choices on the web https://heatline.com/product/retro-line-mini/

 

[The Cobbler]

here's one that's max 550' . run one from each end https://heatline.com/product/retro-line/

 

[hellspcangel911]

here's one that's max 550' . run one from each end https://heatline.com/product/retro-line/

I think that’s worth a try. Thank you

 

[hellspcangel911]

So no love for the air injection idea….? Lol

 

[coldh2o]

If you're not concerned about wasting water, install an electric valve in the cottage plumbing, draining to waste. Power the valve with a smart plug and you can activate it via cell when the weather gets cold. Throttle the valve so you don't waste excess water, just enough to keep things flowing. Essentially replicates your dripping tap.

You could even get fancy and automate further with an outdoor temperature sensor.

Assuming you have wifi at the cottage.

 

[MovingAlong]

So no love for the air injection idea….? Lol

Your property, your money - go for it and let us know how it works out.

 

[carlaisle]

I'd rent a rockwheel for a week and install a new line. Well under $5,000 all in and you'll never have a problem again. Will also increase resale value by at least the cost of the install, so the real cost is zero.

 

[MovingAlong]

Setup a compressor at the bottom of the hill to inject air into the supply line, then at the top, in the basement of the cottage setup an automatic air release valve before it goes to the jet pump and tank?

Is this potable water? A few contaminates come out of my compressor - not sure I'd want it mixed with my drinking water...

 

[mike93lx]

Is this potable water? A few contaminates come out of my compressor - not sure I'd want it mixed with my drinking water...

I am absolutely sure you would not want to use an oiled compressor, but there are oil free compressors, and models that produce air that is safe to breathe.

I have no idea if this bubbler idea is viable for this though, regardless of the safety concern

 

[HoosierMark]

Build a shed and put a 250 or 500 gallon tank in it. Insulate it welll and let it be the water supply for cabin. Supply it from the well. Put a valve in well house to drain water line as needed. Tell renters to watch water usage and it will last a week or two.

 

[racecougar]

Is this potable water? A few contaminates come out of my compressor - not sure I'd want it mixed with my drinking water...

You beat me to it. Not to mention that it's hardly an efficient path to take.

 

[hellspcangel911]

Build a shed and put a 250 or 500 gallon tank in it. Insulate it welll and let it be the water supply for cabin. Supply it from the well. Put a valve in well house to drain water line as needed. Tell renters to watch water usage and it will last a week or two.

Good idea, but there’s no space for it. Perhaps a temporary setup in the driveway.

 

[hellspcangel911]

I was looking at some NSF air compressors, they are used as part of water conditioning systems to aid in for removal, but you’re right it’s not guaranteed to work and inherently inefficient.
You guys have certainly given me lots if options to think about, I’ll try the heat line first and go from there.
Thank you!

 

[sjvicker]

This is a fun puzzle. What is the frost depth in your area?

I'm assuming a shared well means you all share the same pump. If not, you'd just need a pump that doesn't have a check valve on it so you can fill a cistern and then your line drains back into the ground. I do a version of this with a solar pump from RPS. Space for a cistern becomes a challenge at that point.

If your current poly pipe is 25 years old and exposed in places I bet you're going to need to replace that soon. What about charting a new path for a replacement through an area you can more easily dig and bury (edge of driveway)? Sure that might make it 1200' but it would be buried and done at that point. It would be expensive, but so would losing profit on your rental because a few renters left bad reviews for running out of water.

You could run a line back down the hill for a loop and add a circulation pump. But then you have the vegetation to deal with.

I hate to say it but I think you're going to need to deal with clearing the vegetation no matter what you do.

 

[PoorUB]

Build a shed and put a 250 or 500 gallon tank in it. Insulate it welll and let it be the water supply for cabin. Supply it from the well. Put a valve in well house to drain water line as needed. Tell renters to watch water usage and it will last a week or two.

A week or two? I doubt it would run 3-4 days for most people. Plus renters are not known to be thrifty!

A ten minute shower is at least 20 gallons, every toilet flush is a couple gallons. Brush your teeth, a couple gallons as many leave the water running. We haven't washed dishes, or other random hand washing or food prep. I doubt you could get by on 50 gallons a day per person.

 

[dcg9381]

how about a recirculating system that kept the water flowing in the winter.
The moving water won't freeze and you won't actually waste any water

This is what I'd do. Install a 900' "recirculation" line and dump that water back in the well. This solution kinda *****, but it'd get you through winter. I'd want a decent pump protector on the well as well as a stop-cycle valve.

I think your other option is to install (hopefully underground) "drain valve" towards the bottom and blow the line out from the cottage.

[250 or 500] gallons
A week or two? I doubt it would run 3-4 days for most people. Plus renters are not known to be thrifty!
A ten minute shower is at least 20 gallons, every toilet flush is a couple gallons. Brush your teeth, a couple gallons as many leave the water running. We haven't washed dishes, or other random hand washing or food prep. I doubt you could get by on 50 gallons a day per person.

We're on water collection. On a good day 4 of us use <100 gallons. You can install lower-flow shower heads, but the main thing that goes through water around here is the washing machine. 25-40 gallons per cycle.

 

[pembol]

I was looking at some NSF air compressors, they are used as part of water conditioning systems to aid in for removal, but you’re right it’s not guaranteed to work and inherently inefficient.
You guys have certainly given me lots if options to think about, I’ll try the heat line first and go from there.
Thank you!

Moving water does in fact freeze, at the same temperature as still water. The only way it doesn't freeze if the water moving brings warmer water in, which is why leaving a faucet dribbling or a bubbler on a dock works - it brings in warmer water, either from the well/city water source or from deeper in the lake. Unless there is a shortage of water. the idea of draining the pipe and storing water in a small tank seems like the most efficient option, particularly if you can rely on gravity to drain it.

 

[jack stand]

They say that an inch of foam is equal to foot of cover.
I'd explore foam of ?? thickness with minimal soil coverage to keep it in place, protection and out of the sun.

 

[PoorUB]

We're on water collection. On a good day 4 of us use <100 gallons. You can install lower-flow shower heads, but the main thing that goes through water around here is the washing machine. 25-40 gallons per cycle.

We have inexpensive city water, and good quality too. My wife and I go through about 130 gallons per day. When our duaghter lived her she used about 80 gallons by herself!
My wife complained that we needed a larger water heater because the kid would stay in the shower until the hot water ran out. I told her we needed a smaller water heater so she wouldn't camp out in the shower.