Kitchen cabinets, brand name/big box or custom made?

[zable9]

I'm a remodeling contractor and as such, I get the same questions as you guys are asking. A few things may help here:

First of all box construction, many manufacturers offer several levels of cabinet box construction, and to correct one of the early posts in this thread, melamine boxes are MDF boxes. Melamine is simply the finish. Melamine is in fact the same plastic resin that is used in the manufacture of Formica and other laminates. In the case of cabinet boxes, the melamine is less than paper thin and fused to the surface of the MDF when the panel material is manufactured.
In addition to MDF boxes, there are particleboard boxes and plywood boxes. The particleboard boxes are the ones least likely to survive a rough ride from the warehouse to your house. The material and construction is not overly robust and doesn't take well to side loading or racking, but, truth be told, once properly installed, fastened and shimmed, you can get a decent service life out of a particleboard box.
One of the dead give-aways of a cheap cabinet is the side panels of the box. A low end particle board cabinet will have a veneer finish on the sides, the veneer of the cheapies is usually a vinyl, not unlike old fashioned "Contact Paper". Again, the veneer is stupid thin and the texture of the particle board telegraphs through the vinyl surface. There is often an option on wood grain cabinets to upgrade to a wood veneer on the side panels.

What's considered top of the line is a plywood box. They're strong, stable and whether stained or painted finish, the veneers are wood.

Also note that most painted finish cabinets are actually made from Maple, not Poplar, although in some places, Poplar is popular

The next part of the box, regardless of the material is the frame or lack thereof. The frame is comprised of the rails and styles that wrap the front of the box and provide the mounting surface for the hinges and drawer slides. If you're choosing a frame type cabinet, you have the option choosing the overlay of the doors and drawer fronts. This determines how much of the frame shows when the doors is closed. In the case of a frameless cabinet, the resultant look is the same as a "full overlay" cabinet where the door is the same size as the box it's attached to. Many of the "Euro" style cabinets are frameless full overlay design. The frameless design also necessitates hinges that allow the door to swing fully open within the confines of the width of the cabinet box. These are your typical "Blum" style articulated hinges, the ones with about 470 links, pivots and adjustment screws. Be aware that although this type of hinge look pretty high tech, the cheap versions of them are nothing but trouble, the multiple parts, links and pivot points tend to wear and cause sag and misalignment early in the life of the cabinet.

Now onto drawers: The drawer box itself is usually a dovetailed construction or a simple box construction. In your cheapest cabinets, the drawers are stapled together from woodgrained particleboard. Put a 30 lb silverware tray in a drawer like that and you will see why soft close drawer glides are the best thing since sliced bread. Cheap drawers simply don't stand up to the loads applied to them in normal use and are often the first part of the cabinet to take a dump.
Drawer fronts can be part of the drawer box, or attached with screws or other drawer front fasteners that allow for aligning the drawer fronts once the install is completed. We typically install the cabinets, align the doors and drawers and then utilize the drawer hardware screws to fix the position of the drawer front once it's been aligned.

Door construction varies as well in cheap to good cabinets. One "cheapie" thing that I was really blown away by is the "veneered" raised panel doors. In a typical raised panel door construction, individual boards are glued up and milled into the shape of the required panel and assembled into the rails and styles of the door. In a veneered door panel, someone figured out how to make a veneer so freakin thin that it can be applied to the surface of a raised panel that's typically milled from MDF. The veneer even follows the "compound curve" area of the panel as the panel profile makes the transition from the rail feature to the style feature of the panel. This type of panel door would only have a minimum of features in the panel design, as the manufacturer needs to make that veneer follow the panel profile.

Typical door frame construction utilizes rails and styles that are machined to match each other by use of cutters called "coping" cutters. These cutters "cope" the profile of the adjacent frame piece into the end grain of that piece. Typically this yields a strong door frame assembly that exhibits little change with seasonal moisture and temperature shifts and gives a very traditional cabinetmaker style look. A very popular door construction technique is now to use a mitered door frame. Traditionally this was a weaker type of construction and the doors would exhibit movement in the miters with temperature and humidity changes. The past few years though, the mitered doors seem to be holding their own as far as construction quality in cabinets offered from top line manufacturers.

Soft close hinges and self closing drawer slides are pretty standard from almost every manufacturer and besides giving a quality feel to the product, they keep stuff from slamming around and that never hurts the life of a cabinet.

Finishes: My gut feel is that you would be hard pressed to get a more uniform and rugged finish than what is offered from the big manufacturers vs. the local cabinet shop. The reason is the big guys have multiple step processes that ensure uniformity of tone and color despite grain features and differences in the pieces of wood that assembled into the cabinet. Their finishes are also catalyzed and often baked as well. They put on a tougher coating than it typically possible from the small guy down the street.

A custom cabinet shop shines where there are difficult features and oddball sizes needed to make a kitchen look right but a top of the line cabinet manufacturer offers full and semi custom design services that are hard to beat, except maybe for the price.

Hope this helps

Good info. Thx for the share

 

[pablo94sc]

I may sound like a bit of a heretic, but quality factory cabinets are the way to go. No, not your typical big box particle board cabinets, but something like KraftMaid or Plain&Fancy (there are more). Stable quality plywood frames, hardwood draws and doors, precise joinery, quality factory finishes that are nearly impossible in a regular cabinet shop. Fit and finish that only the finest craftsman can produce. Plus, you get to see exactly what you are paying for.

I say this even after growing up and working in my father's contracting business and cabinet shop. He had incredibly skilled cabinet makers that did exquisite custom jobs in a affluent area. But, unless you want something unusual or have a difficult fit, I'd go factory.

I recall seeing a This Old House episode (or offshoot on PBS) that showed a factory making the cabinets that were going into the house they were restoring/remodeling. Honestly, the quality of construction seemed to please Norm and I'm sure the cost is quite a bit less than having a custom cabinet builder make them by hand.

 

[larry4406]

Ptgb - where did you buy your cabinets?

 

[mtnkrake]

lots of good ideas here. subscribed

 

[JimD1]

Lots of options. I've made one kitchen and enjoyed doing it. My late wife liked the results too. 3/4 oak plywood frameless cabinets with solid oak raised panel doors. Dovetailed beech drawers. Shelf material was a function of width of the cabinet. Wide cabinets got hardwood shelves. Smaller ones got oak plywood (edged so the plys didn't show). Cabinets were maximum size that would fit in the space. No fillers.

A drawback of commercial cabinets is wasted space. They waste space because they only come in certain sizes. They also waste space due to using metal slides and space between drawers. I was looking at Lilly Ann cabinets, for instance, and in a 34 1/2 inch base cabinet you get 19 inches of drawers if you have 3 drawers and 21 inches if you have two. Slides is some of that but that's a lot of wasted space. I think I can get at least another decent sized drawer in each box. The wasted space is less if you just have doors or one drawer but the older I get, the less I want to get down on the floor to get in the back of base cabinets.

I looked up Blum undermounts and it looks like you lose 13/16 height and 42mm minus your drawer thickness (both sides) in width. In addition, the drawer bottom has to be up 1/2 inch from the bottom of the drawer. That's a bit of wasted space but only a small portion of the 11 inches or so wasted in a Lily Ann base cabinet. An inch per drawer only explains 3 inches of that. Add a 3/4 wood divider, and you lose a little over 2 inches more. The problem is that the dividers are not 3/4 inches. They must be 2-3 inches. Might look nice to some but it is wasted space to me. Cut down the wood dividers between drawers and you could add about another 6 inch drawer. That's a useful amount of additional storage.

 

[AnthonyJ124]

Myself and the wife just redid (actually still doing) our kitchen using RTA Java Shaker cabinets.

We were on a limited budget, so looking for the best quality within that budget.

The RTA's are very nice for the price ($4000) in our opinion. Plywood boxes, solid maple fronts (full overlay), and dovetail drawers. We ended up with one front face that was scratched up, but they replaced it very quickly (within a week).

The hardware (hinges, drawer slides, etc) was top quality with soft close.

Putting them together, while a chore, was pretty easy and they are very solid and heavy. Use wood glue at all the joints for added strength.

The RTA company itself, they were a bit difficult to deal with, played phone tag with them a few times and their customer service lady can sometimes be less than attentive. We chalked this up to a busy office without enough people and the fact that we were buying budget cabinets.

We drove to Philly (about 4 hours) and picked them up because shipping to Ohio was expensive ($450).

Would I buy them again..... yes! For the price, they are very good quality. We saved over $2500 from the next lowest quote, and that next quote, the cabinets did not have all the features of the RTAs.

If you want any further info.... feel free to contact me.

Hey PTGB! Just wanted to check in and see how you like your RTA cabinets after a few months?? We're dangerously close to ordering our kitchen and I'm just trying to assemble a couple comparative quotes. I assume you used RTAcabinetstore.com?

Thanks!

 

[ptgb]

Hey PTGB! Just wanted to check in and see how you like your RTA cabinets after a few months?? We're dangerously close to ordering our kitchen and I'm just trying to assemble a couple comparative quotes. I assume you used RTAcabinetstore.com?

Thanks!

Yes, used RTAcabinetstore.com and multiple phone calls direct to the company.

The RTA's are working out great! Soft-closers are still still soft closing. Drawers are still solid, even with heavy plates, pots, pans, etc in them. The finish is holding up great. Drawer and door fronts are still square and straight. We have no kids in the house, so they don't take a beating or anything.

Would I do it again... yes, because I actually did. The youngest step-daughter and her fiancee just bought a house over the summer. The kitchen was atrocious. Their budget was much less than ours and they were also looking to get the most for the money. I made another trip to Philly and picked her up a set of white shakers (exactly like ours, just white). She was able to get two ten foot runs of lowers and uppers for right near $2500. It was much cheaper for her because no pantry cabinets were involved.

They were built and installed by her father and her, with nary a problem. Same solid built and they look great.

Step-son is also mulling a set for his unfinished kitchen (but he's a bachelor and getting him to make a real kitchen is like pulling teeth).

So yes, completely satisfied and happy.

 

[NorDel Garage]

This is a great thread, and something I need to show my wife.

I do not know how to mark a thread to find it later.

My search skills are real bad. I looked for a way to put some kind of tag on this thread

but could not find a way. Any advice would be appreciated . Thanks, Ken

 

[JimVonBaden]

This is a great thread, and something I need to show my wife.

I do not know how to mark a thread to find it later.

My search skills are real bad. I looked for a way to put some kind of tag on this thread

but could not find a way. Any advice would be appreciated . Thanks, Ken

At the top of the page find the link "Thread Tool" then "Subscribe to this thread". Later you can find it by clicking on "User CP" at the top of any page. It will show your subscribed threads.

 

[Bluedodge]

We installed Merillat (sp?) cabinets when we built back in '93 at the suggestion of our builder.

Big mistake.

Surfaces have delaminated, joinery has failed, drawer bottoms are extremely flimsy.

Stay away.

 

[AnthonyJ124]

Yes, used RTAcabinetstore.com and multiple phone calls direct to the company.

The RTA's are working out great! Soft-closers are still still soft closing. Drawers are still solid, even with heavy plates, pots, pans, etc in them. The finish is holding up great. Drawer and door fronts are still square and straight. We have no kids in the house, so they don't take a beating or anything.

Would I do it again... yes, because I actually did. The youngest step-daughter and her fiancee just bought a house over the summer. The kitchen was atrocious. Their budget was much less than ours and they were also looking to get the most for the money. I made another trip to Philly and picked her up a set of white shakers (exactly like ours, just white). She was able to get two ten foot runs of lowers and uppers for right near $2500. It was much cheaper for her because no pantry cabinets were involved.

They were built and installed by her father and her, with nary a problem. Same solid built and they look great.

Step-son is also mulling a set for his unfinished kitchen (but he's a bachelor and getting him to make a real kitchen is like pulling teeth).

So yes, completely satisfied and happy.

Thanks a ton for the update and real review! We've pulled in a few quotes for cabinet options and I'm definitely starting to think RTA is the way to go, a lot of that has to do with your review. I don't want to hammer you with questions, but did you like the white finish? Do you know which white/cabinet option they used?

We did a layout with a box store option and the cost for our fairly basic kitchen, with plywood boxes and an upcharge for a white finish ends up over $12k WITHOUT countertops... I did an identical layout on RTA, with all the same options, and the cabinets end up at about $4k shipped. Crazy difference. I've ordered a couple sample doors, and I'm really tempted to just buy a cabinet so we can have a hands on display.

One thing I have noticed is how STUFFY kitchen showrooms are. Dear gawd. We've been in and out of probably a dozen shops in the Boston and Providence area, and each time I'm in a cabinet shop, I feel like I'm not taken as much of a serious shopper. Maybe we're young? Maybe I should wear a suit? I'm also sure I probably give off a skeptical attitude... We were really open to ordering a kitchen this week, but we just weren't wowed or sold on anything. Good thing I guess, since slowing our roll a little and really looking into alternate options like RTA can/will save us a bit of cash in the end.

 

[Radix2]

I am in the middle of installing a set of IKEA kitchen cabinets in a small beach house. I was surprised to see that the are all marked "made in USA" on the cabinet boxes. I also found out that they were a top pick at consumers reports and gave a 25 year warranty. I have done a few full blown kitchens with semi-custom and so far are impressed with the quality, the hardware us top notch, and the door finishes are flawless. One thing to note is that the prices span a HUGE range based on the finish and style chosen. You can get cheap, and you can get pretty expensive. For example a small drawer front 5x24 inches - can be had for $2 in the cheapest version - or $26 in one of the ritzy styles!

By the time you add in all the nice side panels and trim, while being economical perhaps, they are still not cheap and more than in-stock cabs at the big boxes.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I redid the kitchen in my daughter's house a couple of years ago using cabinets order through Costco. I would say the price was "fair" and the quality seem good. I forgot to order the finished toe kicks and we need one additional filler. Very convenient ordering those additional pieces.

I can't say anything about durability. She moved 18 months later, but I know the refinished kitchen helped sell the place !

 

[NorDel Garage]

Thanks JimVonBaden for showing me how to find something fast. This is going to make life easier for me. Thanks, Ken

 

[AnthonyJ124]

Quick thread update;
I placed an order for the complete kitchen through rtacabinetstore.com. They sent out a scaled discount promotion over Easter weekend for 10% up to $3k, 15% up to $5k and 20% off $5k+. After some final decisions, we did a final layout and came up with a game plan. Even with a bunch of add-ons (two glass door uppers, some trim, and lower cabinet roll outs), we ended up at just over $4000. Saved enough with the coupon to cover the LTL shipping, so it worked out very well.

To touch lightly on the RTA pricing, that same exact layout was over $11,000 at lowes for mid-grade cabinets with white paint and the same upgrades.

I'm off today awaiting the LTL delivery (13 days after order). I'll update once I get some of the cabinets assembled.

Thanks again to all those who have contributed to this thread!

 

[AnthonyJ124]

Another update, I have all the cabinets assembled and most installed. Need to hang the cabinet over the fridge/set the fridge enclosure when I have a second set of hands, and then finalize island layout and make a pony wall for it.

It has been a ton of work, but it is starting to a take form. Overall, I would give the RTA cabinets an 8/10- only discounting because some of the faces aren't exactly square with a couple of the wall cabinets being 1/16-1/8 short or tall, and a couple cabinet sides had blemishes in the plywood under the paint. Mostly insignificant gripes and for the wall cabinets it was easy enough to just flip them to get a better fit or side. I'd absolutely buy them again. For the money we are really happy with the look/function.

Since this is GJ, I will add that the best tools I bought for the project have been the FastCap Little hand supports/levelers and I also got a Bosch laser level & tripod. The FastCaps are absolutely a must if you are trying to hang wall cabinets yourself. Just set the cabinet on, jack to level and work the rest of your level/plumb and screw away. Been using Spax wafer head screws and they are great too.

I planned on 5 weeks demo to trim, and the initial budget was $15k. We're into week 3 now, and with the granite, the spend is about $8k (we're reusing appliances but bought a new microwave and range hood). A litttle slow going as a one man band, but for my first go at a lot of this, I'm happy with the progress. Goal is to have countertops measured next week. I'll post up completed pics when I get there.

 

[maxpower_hd]

I would pick a local cabinet company. Just make sure they aren't a fly by night operation and have been around a while. That's what I did when I did mine myself. I feel I got a better quality cabinet for about the same price as the box store. I picked the middle quality with real Maple fronts. It has been about 15 years now and I am still happy with the choice.

I used Norfolk in Nashua NH I believe.

 

[maxpower_hd]

Sorry. I didn't read to the end to see you already bought some. Disregard my ignorance...LOL

 

[steve308]

I've been following this for awhile and I thought I'd chime in --- We decided on Cabinets to GO as my wife did not want MDF or melamine. The boxes are wood (plywood) and the faces are 'real wood'. WE had ours installed by a local contractor and his cabinet team. They did an excellent job. We found out just how uneven our floors are and how out of square the kitchen was! I would have never done half as good a job as they did. We did run into a few issues along the way (1) my wife's multiple changes resulted in to many cabinets being shipped (returned for full credit) and (2) one cabinet would not fit in because when the cabinets were installed level and square one run ended up being 34" instead of the 36" we measured! Yes that far out of square. We installed a smaller cabinet and filler to solve the issue. Oh --Old cabinet are now in the garage After I paint them up I'll post a picture or two.

 

[Steves32]

We went custom, all adjustable shelves, birch furniture grade 3/4 ply interiors, full extension drawers, thick bottom panels in drawers, roll out shelves, lazy susans in corner cabinets, dovetail joints 42” deep drawers in island. It was stupid expensive. So were the high end appliances- all DCS. Appliances have been a money pit in repairs. Never again. 2 year warranty on DCS stuff & it went downhill starting 2 months after warranty expired. $3500 oven, 4th circuit board & now that part is discontinued & only available refurbished. If I was doing kitchen today, I would do it for 1/2 what this one cost me.

 

[AnthonyJ124]

"Final update"
Kitchen is done! Just a few door adjustments to make, and I might pull off some trim I'm not completely satisfied with- but we've been using the kitchen for a while now and are very happy with the new cabinets and configuration. I don't know how we did without the island before, it's great for prep and offers tons of extra storage. I'm getting used to the microwave being in the island still, but it's nice having it out of the way and the look of the range hood is much more appealing than having the microwave on the wall. We also need to make some final lighting decisions, as keeping similar lighting designs throughout the house is proving to be a challenge. For the island, my plan is to surface mount conduit and boxes and hang pendants once we have them (getting rid of the fan).

Net result is a very nice bright kitchen, but the biggest triumph was proving to myself (and my wife) that I could do the entire kitchen by myself. The only contracted work was for the new circuits to the island- but mainly so I could satisfy having a permit for the electrical work in the event we're queried for a permit if we sell sometime soon. I did the rest of the work "without permit" under direction of our local building commissioner who I presented with my plans and intentions of doing the work myself- he was very cool and happy with my ambition, and kindly explained that as long as I wasn't changing the footprint or digging into walls, that I could replace the kitchen in the original configuration without full permitting. He also told me to "spend the permit money on the kitchen" which was entirely unexpected and appreciated. Note that I was actually looking forward to the permit process and gaining that experience, but still relieved that we were good without it.

Regarding budget, we came in UNDER my initial budget, and total spend was just about $10k including tools, dumpster, and the electrical work. We already owned the appliances, they were purchased when we moved in, and the spend there was about $3600 for reference.

Big thanks to everyone who chimed into this thread with advice and input. Everyone's posts were certainly read and considered when we made decisions and when I was working. Thank you!

Pics:

 

[Mike.ASC]

Very nicely done. I am currently in the process of a remodel and your island has given me some ideas. Thanks for posting your remodel.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Very nice and bright.

How was the island built ? One unit or several put together ?

 

[AnthonyJ124]

Thanks! Glad to share, I've pulled so much good info from GJ, I felt obligated to show the project.

The island is set on a doubled up 2x6 base (to bring the island up ~3" above the rest of the base cabinets) with a 2x4 knee wall that I secured two 30" cabinets to. I used furring strips to mount the 8" tongue and groove to the sides of the cabinet boxes, then brought that around the back (under the overhang).

The counter top supports/corbels actually came from RTA, and were already painted to match. I painted the entire island, kick panels (1/4" furniture grade ply was used there), and trim using the sherwin williams paint code provided by RTA to match the cabinets perfectly. I also painted all the cabinet frames after installation... Mostly because I split one cabinet frame with a screw that fouled out on an internal cabinet assembly screw and blew out the frame. That also allowed me to caulk all the cabinet face joints and make things a little more seamless.

This pic should help with the cabinet base situation. Note that I ran 2x4s horizontally in the cavities of the knee wall to secure the T&G after this pic was taken.



I have a phone full of pics and am certainly willing to show anything specific if anyone has questions!

 

[eksa]

I've had good luck with this company. https://customcabinetdepot.com/ They offer good value for money.