To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

kitchen cutlery...yeah it's a tool

Frank Elson

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,375
Location
Lancashire, UK
I swear by a thin bladed Normark filleting knife, made for fishing, that I have owned for 20 years. Holds an edge for years.
My wife swears by her Optimel French-made knives. Cheapest plain wooden handle you ever saw. Cheapest, almost tin, blade that she needs to sharpen every week and wears out in a couple of months.
We're both perfectly happy with our own choice.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

wilbilt

Banned
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
5,602
Location
NorCal
I would appreciate one of you honing/sharpening gurus making a how-to video and posting it on youtube.

I can sharpen an axe, but it seems I've screwed up every kitchen knife I have ever tried to sharpen. Must be the eyes...yeah, that's it...
 

Rickster

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 26, 2005
Messages
6,218
Location
SE PA
Cutco all the way! Best knives we've ever had. I look for them at every estate sale and have added several to our kitchen over the years.
 

Bolster

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
4,056
Location
Mexifornia
I would appreciate one of you honing/sharpening gurus making a how-to video and posting it on youtube..

Wilbilt, I am one of the most opinionated people about knives and sharpening that you are likely to meet. Now that the bad news is out of the way, let me bend your ear about sharpening.

Lots of fans of freehanding your edge on a stone out there, very old school and respectable...gives you major bragging rights...but it is a SKILL and you have to spend time (and wear out your blades) before you get good. I have never been that good at freehanding. I like the cheater's shortcut method: jigs. I have many of them.

With long thin blades like kitchen knives, one of the easiest ways to resharpen them is to use a device like a Sharpmaker. It comes with a DVD on how to use it. (Actually the Sharpmaker is an easy and efficient way for pocket knives too, but not good for the hatchets, machetes, and swords you frequently carry to work.)

For short pocket knife blades, I like the Lansky. And for big blades (and only big blades, nothing else) the EdgePro.

A very popular technique (I use it) is to back-bevel your edges at a low angle, maybe 10-20 degrees (per side) if you are using good steel. Then put the primary bevel on at a higher angle, maybe 15-25 degrees. There's lots of arguing about the best angles, but they really depend on the steel. A soft steel like 420 or 440A needs pretty wedgie edge so it can hold up, but you can get a steel like ZDP-189 really thin and it will still hold an edge.
 
Last edited:

a390st

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
920
Please, no knife discussions on here!!! I don't have time to get into this. I was harassed on here over trying to explain that knives are as expensive as tools. Someone said he had $100,000 in tools and no chef could come anywhere close. Let me tell you, a true specialty chef over his career is very capable of spending $10,000 - $20,000 or more on knives. Knives are not at all like tools. A Snap On tool will last decades. A $400 knife may last a few years of regular use. You don't need just one knife, either. It can take over a dozen knives to make up a good useful set. With a kitchen staff, you wear them out less quickly, but a really good specialty chef will still go through them quicker than he wants to think about. I speak from experience. I'm not talking about the guy at Craxxxrbxxrel or wherever who chops up a few carrots and some celery in a day. I'm talking about something a little different.

I will not use German knives for much because they are constantly dull. If you just use them at home two or three hours a week, they're alright, but not for hours a day. You will spend a ton or money or time trying to keep them sharp. Japanese knives are worlds sharper, and hold an edge much longer. They do chip worse, but that is a much bigger problem for untrained or inexperienced workers. Proper technique is very important with blades that are harder than mid 50's RH. Japanese blades generally run 58-62 RH, or somewhere in the vicinity. The German blades rarely get over 52 RH, regardless of the manufacturers' claims. Test them if you don't believe me. English blades are generally similar. They are just too coarse for any finer work.

After you've spent a few years using a whole range of knives on a daily basis, you get to know what works for what job. European style knives are great for heavy chopping and hacking. They don't shatter or chip when you go crazy with them. People think that makes them good knives. The Asian chef uses a cleaver for a lot of that type of work. The poor destitute Asian chef often will use a cheap cleaver for most of his grunt work and some of his finer work. The specialty knives get saved for very intricate work. If you aren't as poor, you will have a wider array of good knives, but still use a cleaver to save your edges on rough work. If you are a truly special chef, you will be capable of the type of intricate and fine work that requires very good and very specialized knives. Sushi and decorative Japanese cuisine calls for excellent cutlery.

There are a lot of possibilities, and if you are really interested, send me a PM. I don't want someone getting run over because their name was used on the internet. Most of the good Japanese makers do it to order by hand themselves with only a few helpers, and it doesn't take much to get them totally run over. There are a few American individuals that were trained in Japan who honestly rival the masters themselves. Again, they are more or less custom makers because of the skill it requires to do it right. Lines like Shun are alright, but they really don't compare with the true custom knives, and cost every bit as much, and occasionally more.
 

Vinko

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
5,829
Location
Los Angeles
These are made a stone's throw from Mayhew tools in Shelburne Falls MA.

http://www.lamsonsharp.com/

I bought one knife last year that has been great. I will probably pick up another this holiday season. I am sure you can get some Chinese Henckels cheaper though.


These are the one's I'd heard about. The knife seller said he really liked them and thought the steel was great, but the finish was slightly less nice than the German stuff. But only slightly. THis was a few years ago, so maybe things have changed.
 

MAD

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2007
Messages
2,702
Location
Western MA
These are the one's I'd heard about. The knife seller said he really liked them and thought the steel was great, but the finish was slightly less nice than the German stuff. But only slightly. THis was a few years ago, so maybe things have changed.

I like them but I am not a knife expert. I bought a Lamson knife because I tend to do my Chritsmas shopping in local stores that sell local products. There is nothing worse than malls in December. I got mine here:
http://umassmag.com/2008/Spring_2008/features/retail_therapy.html


There is an intersting photo tour of the knife factory on the lamson site.
http://www.lamsonsharp.com/Lamson%20Barnhart%20Gallery/index.html
 

Merkava_4

Banned
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
14,518
Location
Clovis, CA.
http://www.crescoresco.com/locations.html

Have any of you guys been to a CRESCO store?!!? They're a commercial restaurant supply. That place has got it!!! :)

I've got some knives there that are made in Solingen, Germany: a couple of carving knives and a couple of paring knives that I've linked to in my previous posts. What I like best about them is that they've got stainless steel blades that hone up real easily; a couple of swipes on the honing steel and they're back to being razor sharp again. :)
 
Last edited:

z28toz06

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
1,012
Location
Connecticut
440 steel is pretty hard stuff. Many buck knives are made from 440 steel. They are a b1tch to sharpen but do hold an edge quite well.

"Honing" is not sharpening a knife. You are just realigning the metal ions at the edge of the knife. Done with a "steel"

Cutco is one of the best knives I own. They are expensive though, but worth every penny. They are guaranteed sharp for life, and I have only steeled mine periodically to keep it sharp. Look for them at sales and the bay.

The most important thing when using a knife is the cutting surface under your food. If you use a hard surface, Like a ceramic plate, you will roll the edge of the knife, like the guy in the video eluded to. Running a "steel" over it will not straighten this out. The blade must then be resharpened.

If you want to sharpen your knives correctly the hardest part is holding the angle throughout the whole stroke, which with a 10" blade is difficult at best.

Check these out if you are serious about sharpening your own kitchen tools. If you have a couple of friends that cook a lot, or butcher game, chip in and get one together. Or look on the web sites for people selling used ones.

http://www.edgeproinc.com/products.html I

I have seen these units for less than 175 dollars used. You can't really hurt them and you can buy different/new stones when needed.

Another place to look for decent knives is T.J. Maxx. They buy out other stores inventory and I have picked up a few decent knives very cheap there.

(wandered through the kitchen department during one of the many painful drag throughs the wife had me on!)

Spyderco sharpmaker is a great product but again its tough trying to hold an angle on a 10 or 12 inch kitchen knife.
http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=77

There is a poor mans way to sharpen kitchen knives. Take a computer mouse pad and place it on a piece of plywood. On top of that place a 1000.1500. 0r 2000 grit wetsand paper. Yes the kind for sanding cars. drag the knife backwards along the length of the paper. drag it at the proper angle for the knife. Most Kitchen knives are safe with a 10-15 degree angle. You must drag it backwards, or with the backbone of the knife leading across the paper.

If you look at a knife edge under high magnification, you will see a rather jagged edge. If you want to make the knife scary sharp, you must break these off and sand down the edges until it gets razor sharp. Most conventional wisdom tells you to sharpen the knife in the same direction that you will cut with it. If you dont you will align the edge such that when you go to use the knife to cut something, you will immediately start to push those micro jagged pieces back in the other direction than they were aligned during the sharpening process. There are exceptions to this rule however, called convex sharpening. Like the wetsand paper trick above.

Here: http://www.barkriverknives.com/convex.htm

I hope I have sufficiently planted yet another destructive seed, which will lead to excesive money spending on yet another incurable hobby! (misery loves company!)
 

Merkava_4

Banned
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
14,518
Location
Clovis, CA.
The most important thing when using a knife is the cutting surface under your food. If you use a hard surface, Like a ceramic plate, you will roll the edge of the knife, like the guy in the video eluded to. Running a "steel" over it will not straighten this out. The blade must then be resharpened.


I use Ultra-High-Molecular-Weight polyethylene cutting boards. :bounce:
 

eschoendorff

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
8,991
Location
Michigan
I listen for the sound it makes with the edge against the steel. When I have the angle right, I'll hear a shishkkk shishkkk sound; and I just maintain that angle to get the sound. ;)

Nice! It's amazing what you can fine-tune simply by sound.... :pimpflash

We need to get some new knives. We just have some cheap Kitchen Aid knives... worked well enough for the last 6 years. Nit the highest priority right now though. First I need to replace the fuel pump in my truck. Until then, I'll just keep sharpening my cheapie Kitchen Aids..
 

billymade

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
7,461
Location
New Mexico
Those pics of the lamson site: wow, really beautiful black/white shots, everything seems to be done by hand, a really big contrast compared to the
Wusthof/Henckels production videos in Solingen, Germany... I guess they are concerned with high production, precision, and reduction of repetitive stress injury, probably lower medical costs in the long run too... although one of the videos (I think Wusthof) still showd humans involved in the final sharpening/honing processes plus q/c and final packaging...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solingen
 
Last edited:

Bolster

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
4,056
Location
Mexifornia
440 steel is pretty hard stuff. Many buck knives are made from 440 steel. They are a b1tch to sharpen but do hold an edge quite well.

It is possible to harden pretty much any steel to really high RC numbers, but overhardening will cause chipping, so there's an ideal range for each steel. Generally the 440A is considered a soft stainless steel, it's stamp-able, unlike many modern steels that must be cut with laser, water jet, grinding, etc. (440C is a good steel that can hold reasonable hardness levels, but it's seldom seen in kitchen cutlery.)

440A is considered one of the easier stainless steels to sharpen, but does not hold an edge well (compared to modern steels) due to its low carbon content. The edge bends and curls under use (which is why you must constantly realign the edge with a 'realignment steel'). Sometimes you'll see blade steel called 440HC (High Carbon) but that's just marketing smoke and mirrors. HC only relative to other low-carbon steels.

Aside from 440C, most KP's (knife people) now shy away from owning 440, and 420 (the stuff of many Solingen German kitchen knives) is considered marginal at best--by today's standards.

Spyderco sharpmaker is a great product but again its tough trying to hold an angle on a 10 or 12 inch kitchen knife.

My understanding is that a crock-style setup (like the sharpmaker or other similar product) is one of the easier ways of holding an angle on a long thin blade. Certainly easier than a whetstone, way easier than a Lansky rig which is simply not meant for large blades. Where the crock-style setup has a serious deficiency? It takes forever to reprofile an edge, since the ceramic stones are generally so fine.

There's also those inexpensive "draw through" types of sharpeners but most of them are just murder on your edge, peeling off dozens or hundreds of potential sharpenings in a single sharpening.
 

dfndr

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
373
Location
Fresno, CA
It's amazing-but you all missed it! The absolute best kitchen knife you can buy is the Japanese MAC knife, sold in America at www.macknife.com. So sharp they will amaze and you don't have to hone them before each use. When they eventually need sharpening, which is not often, you do it yourself with a $20 tool they sell in 60 seconds. Check out the top chefs who use them. They are without equal.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Packard V8

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
7,380
Location
Spokane, WA
Forty years ago, a professional chef told me he used only the wood-handled Russell-Dexter. I bought a starter set then and I've added a few more pieces of their newer Connoisseur series over the years and am up to fifteen or so different shapes and lengths. I'm interested in the newer steels, but only after the Russell-Dexter wears out. Used daily for 40 years - So far, so good.

thnx, jack vines
 

lbgradwell

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
4,707
Location
Oakville, ON
I don't know how I missed this thread when it was new, but I thought I'd add some info that might be of help to someone...

As others have mentioned, it is a skill to effectively sharpen one's own knives (no matter what brand you own or from Germany or Japan).

I happen to own Japanese knives and used one of those Henckels draw-sharpeners for several years (with poor results) before learning they aren't a good idea for Japanese steel!:mad:

A couple of years ago I bought a very simple & inexpensive jig from Lee Valley and use it with my Japanese waterstone. The results have been very impressive! Once sharp, a regular honing keeps the blades keen.

Honing Guide for Knives

1000x/4000x Combination Water Stones

Then you need to realize that you have to keep your waterstone tuned too!

Lapping Accessories

I also use the waterstone for my chisels and plane blades, so the extra (very small) investment in the Honing Guide was a no-brainer...
 

back2class

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
2,723
I have been super pleased with my Faberware High Carbon steel Pro set. I like my high end cookware and stuff, and while not very high priced, they are high quality. These are very good quality IMHO for home use and 99% of people out there.
 
Last edited:

Shocker

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Messages
2,015
Location
Olympia, WA
I have a collection of Henckles, Wustof and Sabatier.

Henckles INTL collection is made in Spain btw.
 

volvo420coupe

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2008
Messages
598
Location
central Michigan
I love my cutco knives, my sister used to sell them, and I picked a few up off line, if the EVER get dull or broken just send them in and they will fix, sharpen and or replace them for free, FOR LIFE. I think they are awesome, just avoid buying retail if you can, lots of good deals are online, and for the price of buying retail they may as well say snap-on on them.
 
Last edited:

mickeyone

Well-known member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
198
Location
northern NJ
My chef knife is gerber 27 years and still the fave,Use Lamson ,Dexter,Sabatier,Case old forge,normark filet all are great Get the spyderco sharpening system and a good steel or crock stick.
 

PurdueSD

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
1,577
Location
Indiana
Ive been collecting the shun ken onion series of knives for my wife. They are incredible knives, though a little on the expensive side. Great Christmas gifts!

I got hooked on ken onion through kershaw pocket knives. If you don't have one, dont play with one or it'll end up on your must have list. The torsion assist is too cool!
 

Autoguy

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
474
Location
Riyadh/Saudi Arabia
I have German set from Zwilling since 20 years cost was $100 thee last summer in Carefour Supermarket I saw a german brand made in china that looked exactly like some famous german knives. I took one for trial for $7 and after sixe monthe of use it was great came back and bought 4 more .
 

ourkid2000

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
927
Location
Nova Scotia
Old thread I know....

I got a couple Global Knives as a wedding gift this summer and all I have to say is yowza.....sharp. I've used em every other day and they're still wicked sharp.

I have a chef's knife and a small paring knife. I'd love to get some more of these but they're quite expensive, even for smaller knives.

I've cut myself a few times with these things.....you have to be careful. I did this while washing, never when cutting. Your skin cannot make contact of any kind (seriously) with that edge or you'll get cut. Funny thing is that you really don't feel it cut you, you'll only notice it later. I guess this is because of how sharp they are.

They're made out of Cromova 18 stainless steel according to the box......not sure what that is but it's different from what most use. Could be a trade name for the same stuff, not sure.

I have nothing but good to say about these things though.
 

ourkid2000

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
927
Location
Nova Scotia
It is amazing how so many people think they own the best kitchen knives.....

For every person that says they know the best brand, there are 2 or three who claim that they are garbage and that they have a superior brand.

It's worse than tools!
 

blue dog

Banned
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
4,051
Location
Culver City Ca.
Way to revive an old thread.
I have Messermeister's , Wusthof and Henckles. They all have there place.
Good kitchen cutlery makes a difference.

I bought a bunch of Kuhn Rikon Knives on amazon for my camping kitchen supplies. I have been impressed with them for cheap cutlery. Been using them for years and they have held up well.
 
Last edited:

theoldwizard1

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
43,121
Location
SE MI
If your not a snob, IMHO, the best bang for the buck is Chicago Cutlery.

3 rivet, full tang handle. Keep them out of the dishwasher. My set is over 20 years old.

If you are buying a set, make certain you get a bread knife !
 
Last edited:

catfish

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2010
Messages
360
Location
Australia
Really want the best? I have a few of these from before his prices got so high:

www.cartercutlery.com
"neck knives"?
I have a Solingen straight razor with the tip of the blade being a few microns thick.I don't see how you could get that sort of edge on whats basically a modified hunting knife.
Must be an acquired taste that one.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom