Kitchen outlet amps? 15 or 20?

[brentmc]

GJ Brethern,

Electric question.

We (our contractor) added one counter level outlet to our kitchen during the remodel. This outlet will be used for small appliances in the kitchen.

It is the only kitchen outlet on that side of the kitchen, and is now on the same 15 amp circuit that includes several outlets in my garage that handle ceiling lights (fluorescent) and a large power strip.

My questions:

Do kitchen outlets have to be 20 amp circuits?

Do kitchen outlets have to be dedicated to kitchen only?

Thank you.

Brent

 

[brentmc]

Mods--I think I put this in the wrong forum--I will repost in electrical--please remove if possible-sorry!

GJ Brethern,

Electric question.

We (our contractor) added one counter level outlet to our kitchen during the remodel. This outlet will be used for small appliances in the kitchen.

It is the only kitchen outlet on that side of the kitchen, and is now on the same 15 amp circuit that includes several outlets in my garage that handle ceiling lights (fluorescent) and a large power strip.

My questions:

Do kitchen outlets have to be 20 amp circuits?

Do kitchen outlets have to be dedicated to kitchen only?

Thank you.

Brent

 

[brentmc]

GJ Brethern,

Electric question.

We (our contractor) added one counter level outlet to our kitchen during the remodel. This outlet will be used for small appliances in the kitchen.

It is the only kitchen outlet on that side of the kitchen, and is now on the same 15 amp circuit that includes several outlets in my garage that handle ceiling lights (fluorescent) and a large power strip.

My questions:

Do kitchen outlets have to be 20 amp circuits?

Do kitchen outlets have to be dedicated to kitchen only?

Thank you.

Brent

 

[vekster]

kitchen outlets for new construction are 20 amp T slot.
2 receptacles on a 20A circuit

 

[brentmc]

Is a kitchen remodel considered "new construction"? The house was built in 1997...

Thank you.

 

[alfredeneuman]

kitchen outlets for new construction are 20 amp T slot.
2 receptacles on a 20A circuit

Maybe in Canada but not in the US.

A minimum of 2- 20A circuits are required for kitchen small appliances alone.

They can use either 15 or 20 Amp receptacles

It was in the NEC before 1997

 

[finn]

20 amp circuits for the kitchen with dedicated circuits for each major appliance, per my electrician.

Don't forget the GFI outlet protection

 

[Charles (in GA)]

In the US there is no requirement that 20 amp rated receptacles (T slot) be used on a 20 amp circuit, except that if only one, single receptacle is supplied by the circuit, then yes, it does have to be 20 amp rated. (a standard duplex receptacle counts as two receptacles).

That being said, I think current code requires kitchen circuits to be 20 amp (12 gauge wire, 20 amp breaker) and dedicated to the kitchen. All countertop receptacles shall be GFCI protected, and circuits feeding the kitchen shall not be used for outdoor or other room recpetacles, nor for lighting. See NEC 210.52 for most of this info.

 

[Cmreschke]

As said, 2 circuits rated 20 amps for small appliance counter top use.
When I was wiring houses you could feed the nook, dining room receptacles only off of these 2 circuits as well.

 

[ctfjr]

Good luck Brent. I wired this house when we built it. On our kitchen counters I have a total of 6 duplex outlets on 3 separate 20 amp circuits. Mighty glad I did too In one corner the wifey has a toaster oven, toaster, regular perk type coffer maker and a Keurig. You can never have too many outlets

 

[brentmc]

Okay--thanks--two 20 Amp circuits for small appliance countertop use are required.

I would then assume that a newly installed 15 amp (wiring, outlet and breaker) countertop appliance outlet is against code--correct?

Also, one more question for clarification (similar to the question above):

Does that mean ALL outlets for small appliance countertop use need to be on one of the two required 20 amp circuits? Or can there be a third 20 amp circuit for small appliance use?


Many Thanks!

 

[n8n]

You must have a minimum of two dedicated 20A circuits feeding countertop outlets but there is no prohibition against having more. However if you are adding a recep at least the way I would interpret the code is that it must be added to an existing 20A countertop circuit OR it must be on a new 20A circuit (and GFCI protected in either case.) Only your local electrical inspector can tell you what's compliant and not in your area, but that's the way I interpret it.

I would also say that in my opinion, the only way a 15A circuit would be legal for countertop use is if it was original to the house and/or installed as part of an older remodel, and *was* compliant at the at the time the work was done, but IMHO it would not be compliant to add another countertop outlet to it today.

 

[ovilla]

20 amp circuits for the kitchen with dedicated circuits for each major appliance, per my electrician.

Don't forget the GFI outlet protection

That's code in my town too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[tfi racing]

Sounds like your "electrician"(doubtful he was actually one),tagged your new receptacle off of the closest,easiest existing circuit.Without seeing the whole story,it is hard to say if it could be interpreted as legal or not,if one has to question it,it probably isn't.

 

[75gmck25]

I would agree with n8n; a newly installed 15 amp counter-top circuit would not be compliant with current code. You need a minimum of two 20 amp counter-top circuits , but can add additional circuits if you need them. The number of receptacles on each circuit is not specified, but they must GFCI-protected, and comply with other codes for wall spacing, island power, etc.

You may be able to reuse the existing 15 amp circuit for a garbage disposal, dishwasher, or lights, but most folks now use 20 amp circuits for the refrigerator and microwave/vent. Some appliances do not really need a 20 amp circuit, but it gives you flexibility for later.

Bruce

 

[checkthisout]

http://www.ecmag.com/section/your-business/article-210-branch-circuits-3

2 20 amp circuits feeding countertop outlets. These two circuits can also feed the convenience outlets in the area where food is normally prepared and served I.E. the dining room and dinner table area. And dedicated dishwasher circuit.

They used to feed fridge and range hood off small appliance circuit but now code or manufacturers instructions for appliance spec that fridge, range hood or over the range microwave must be on separate circuits.


So you need 2 countertop/convenience outlet circuits, 1 dishwasher circuit, and 1 circuit for microwave.

5 circuits total!

4 feet on the countertop outlet spacing. Minimum 1 outlet on island and peninsulas.

 

[Zeke]

In addition, any counter that measures 12 inches or more at the wall needs an outlet. One needs to be within 2 feet of the sink on either side and any other counter break such as a cooktop. If there is more than 4 feet between them another needs to be added so that there is no more than 24" to reach nay outlet at the wall. Peninsulas and islands need outlets based on the same rules but they must not be on the counter surface.

There's a bit more to it but that's enough to know whether the electrician knows his code or not.

 

[jay8s]

I just rewired my kitchen with 4 dedicated 20 amp circuits. Each circuit has a 4 outlet GFCI strip. I also have one dedicated each to the fridge, microwave, and dishwasher/gas range. I went with this so I can have 4 crock pots going at the same time with no worries. My wife likes to batch cook any chance she gets.

 

[SlappyWhite]

Depends on the code for the location.

Here, 15 amp outlets in the kitchen (counter outlets) must be split-duplex. Each half comes off of opposite sides of the panel and the breakers must be ganged. Now in this case you have two 15 amp outlets in “one” receptacle, each half capable of 15 amps each (sort of 30 total, really 2 X 15). This can be costly if the receptacle is closer than 1m (~3 ft) to a sink, it needs to be GFI and the only option for split duplex is a GFI breaker.

20 amp is an option, in this case it is not split duplex, just duplex. A 20 amp GFI breaker is perfectly acceptable if close to the sink.

Here if it is a 15 amp duplex it is not allowed.

Do you know if it is going to be duplex or split duplex?

Unless you have a kitchen welder 15 amp split duplex > 20 amp single duplex > 15 amp single duplex which is not allowed in this case.

 

[GirchyGirchy]

IIRC in the US, at least per NEC, it's fine to use 15A duplex on a 20A circuit. Don't know if local laws would change that. Personally I wouldn't mess with 20A outlets but sounds like you need more dedicated circuits.

 

[sberry]

I just did a kitchen and bathroom. Was a single 15 a breaker on a 12 wire, now all 12/20 and 5 or 6 circuits.

 

[sberry]

The kitchen is a place its not hard to use 3 circuits if we count the microwave. I don't even use an old one, ran a wire when I moved in for 2 new and use it. Kitchens and a little in bath has really been the added load in homes, lights used to be a factor but are reducing in load. Even with cfl can turn most lights on in a family home for a couple amps.

 

[volleyball]

Microwave, fridge, dishwasher, are all separate circuits besides the two countertop ones. So a minimum of 6 circuits in kitchen assuming you have all those appliances.
What kind of remodel is this? You hired handy andy to do a little work in your kitchen or is this a full remodel done by a company and a full permit?

 

[Slowgsr]

Renovations or alterations mean bring up to code.
In Canada you can use either split 15 or 20 tslot

 

[theoldwizard1]

Remodeled my daughters kitchen 2 years ago. Added 4 - 20A circuits.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

It is the only kitchen outlet on that side of the kitchen, and is now on the same 15 amp circuit that includes several outlets in my garage that handle ceiling lights (fluorescent) and a large power strip.

Having a kitchen outlet on a circuit that feeds the garage should not be right. The garage circuit should be GFI protected. Under old codes this "might" have been correct, but I don't think it would be correct today. Maybe in a remodel of an older home this could be permissible.

Did the OP have a clear discussion with the "electrician" about what outlets would be added and how they would be run?

As a number of the posters pointed out, you can't have enough 20amp circuits with multiple outlets in a kitchen.

Its really embarrassing to have a house warming party after a remodel job and the breakers keep tripping because of all the coffee pots, roasters, cookers, and crock pots that are plugged in.

The kitchen and the garage are the two worst places to go with the bare minimum of circuits, amps, and outlets ... especially for someone on the GJF. For someone on a literary forum, the minimum to meet code might be fine.

All that said, there could have been challenges to the "electrician" in getting access to the walls to get it wired any better.

Remodeled my daughters kitchen 2 years ago. Added 4 - 20A circuits.

The Old Wizard is one smart man!

 

[checkthisout]

Having a kitchen outlet on a circuit that feeds the garage should not be right. The garage circuit should be GFI protected. Under old codes this "might" have been correct, but I don't think it would be correct today. Maybe in a remodel of an older home this could be permissible.

Did the OP have a clear discussion with the "electrician" about what outlets would be added and how they would be run?

As a number of the posters pointed out, you can't have enough 20amp circuits with multiple outlets in a kitchen.

Its really embarrassing to have a house warming party after a remodel job and the breakers keep tripping because of all the coffee pots, roasters, cookers, and crock pots that are plugged in.

The kitchen and the garage are the two worst places to go with the bare minimum of circuits, amps, and outlets ... especially for someone on the GJF. For someone on a literary forum, the minimum to meet code might be fine.

All that said, there could have been challenges to the "electrician" in getting access to the walls to get it wired any better.



The Old Wizard is one smart man!

So the 1971 house I'm working on had no GFCI protection. It had two 20 amp amp circuits for kitchen outlets plus 1 dedicated 20 amp for the dishwasher. Convenience outlet circuit fed range hood.

That was the original wiring.


Now, I do remember my parents house in 1976 had GFCI protection for the outlet right next to the kitchen sink. It fed the switch for the disposer outlet on the wall as well.

The protecting outlet was in the upstairs bathroom and fed all 4 bathrooms on the top and bottom floors, the exterior outlets (1 each) on the front and back of the house and the outlet in the garage.

So the OP's setup makes sense.

In my parents house, I do remember this circuit always popping all the time due to hairdryers, light strings getting wet etc.


In the remodel I'm doing, the inspectors want arc faults and GFCI's added on any circuit that current code requires but they were uninterested in requiring that outlet spacing and placement be brought to current code so I imagine non-safety upgrades are not required during remodels unless you add square footage? But yes, still definitely an intelligent decision to run more circuits.

 

[Norcal]

GFCI protection was not required until the 1987 edition in kitchens even then it was just those receptacles within 6 feet of the kitchen sink.

 

[gravelydude]

I know that it used to be common to provide two circuits using a three wire circuit (one nuetral for two hots). Is this still allowed?

Jack

 

[sberry]

Yes, its how I did mine. 1 cable, 2 circuits.

 

[n8n]

The downside to using an Edison circuit is that you'll have to use a double pole breaker meaning both circuits will trip simultaneously if you overload one. Also you will have to use separate cables downstream of GFCI. Still legal though.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

 

[gravelydude]

Thanks guys. Was just curious if still legal.

Jack

 

[volleyball]

Its really embarrassing to have a house warming party after a remodel job and the breakers keep tripping because of all the coffee pots, roasters, cookers, and crock pots that are plugged in.

The kitchen and the garage are the two worst places to go with the bare minimum of circuits, amps, and outlets ... especially for someone on the GJF. For someone on a literary forum, the minimum to meet code might be fine.

So you are saying we are all fat and eat too much? Maybe read too little. Sounds about right.

 

[MoonRise]

Electrical code for something like 20+ years or so (in the USA) has required two separate 20 amp kitchen counter circuits. The outlets can be 'standard' 15 amp outlets though.

That is the Code-required minimum.

Nothing else running off those two circuits either. No lighting, not running the refrigerator or the dishwasher, etc.

Don't forget the GFCI requirements either.

The reasoning behind it is so that running two or more kitchen appliances doesn't cause an instant-trip of the one overloaded breaker feeding everything in the kitchen.

Toaster + coffee maker on same 15 amp circuit at the same time would usually be an instant-trip of the breaker.

Toaster on one 20 amp circuit + coffee maker on another 20 amp circuit means both are working. So you can have your toast and morning coffee both being made in the morning at the same time.

 

[brentmc]

I'm the OP--get out your popcorn as I give you all more details that I am trying to digest:

I hired a large local kitchen and bath company to do my kitchen remodel. I did not pick the cheapest, I picked the one that seemed to be the best able to manage the job. It is a large job (sunroom, breakfast area and kitchen with a 10' island and two sinks).

As part of the contract, for the electric portion he is to install electric outlets, new switches and generally wire the kitchen. He is also to install 700 sq ft of tile, all new cabinets and paint and repair/drywall.

The company owner promised his best team and to double the manpower to meet our deadline (which passed 3 2weeks ago). To do this he hired a subcontractor (who is 20 years old with a new license) who in turned *hired* his 17-year old high school brother to do ALL the wiring--new outlets, switches and wiring to the double oven, dishwasher, wine cooler, fridge, two garbage disposals and a cooktop.

I hired an electrician to untangle the worst of the electric work on one wall (we deleted 3 unnecessary wire runs, consolidated several outlets/switches and uncovered 3 junction boxes hidden behind drywall). The two remaining areas that we have not untangled are the aforementioned 15 amp outlet that should be 20 amp, and anything he might have done under the floor or island.

I just want this done, but I want it safe. I am considering calling someone to inspect the work and then reporting the company for using a 17-yr old that took 2 classes in high school to wire my home.

Sign, deep breath...there are many more details, to include the granite installers letting themselves into my home unannounced while my wife was in the shower. She called me immediately to tell me someone had broken into the house and was still there. I told her to call 911 and get my gun. They ultimately identified themselves and she didn't shoot them. She did end up in the emergency room right after with what we thought was a stroke (left side numb, couldn't breather, racing heartbeat) but was apparently a panic attack.

There is more...I will spare you.

What do you all recommend I do at this point?

I still *owe* $4,000 for the final payment and just found out that ALL the grout is different colors ranging from copper to light white--they mixed it one bucket at a time and the floor looks like a patchwork quilt of grout colors.

We are exhausted and want them out of our house. We have spent so much money that we need to get a kitchen out of this.

 

[volleyball]

Cheap helpers do the grunt work. The licensed guy is responsible for checking the work and making it code if not. I don't know who signed off on what electrically. Have extra circuits is smart but not required, and unless it was spec'd you aren't getting them.
So I don't think the 20 yo is going to pay for anything. Unless he did not perform to the contract.
And did anything anywhere say to fix old mistakes? Will making a deal of this mean a proper electrician will come in and lots of other things will now be made to be brought up to code?
Are there permits? Hope you did get them? Maybe if not and they are required, then the kitchen place may be the one holding the bag.
Unless they are going to quickly fix it, then putting your 4k into an escrow account is next on your list.

 

[gravelydude]

I hate to say this, but it sounds like you need an attorney. I would at least talk to a lawyer (initial consultation is usually free), and then try to negotiate with your contractor before proceeding. When you say that you hired an electrician, did you consult with your kitchen contractor or the electrical subcontractor first? Or did you just hire the electrician on your own? As for the granite installers, could have been innocent. Pretty typical for a subcontractor to knock on the door, no one answers but door is open, go in and get to work. Try to look at the situation from both sides. If you can come to terms with the original contractor (I presume that he is a GC), it will come out better for both of you.

Jack

 

[brentmc]

Thanks Jack--I really hate to go the attorney route but it may be inevitable.

Because the tile grout is all different shades, I called in a tile company to look at it.

They just found that the contractor used 1/4" Durock as the underlayment on my floor. He says because the joists are 18" to center, they require 3/8" plywood or Ditra--not 1/4" Durock...

If the floor is not fixed, I am told it will have too much deflection and the grout and tile will eventually have serious issues.

In that the contract said all "work will be done to industry standards", I have contacted the NTCA and will get a board member to look at the work.

I fear the bottom line is the entire 700 sq ft floor has to be removed and replaced...

 

[gravelydude]

Brent,

As far as the tile goes - Really depends what is under the Durock. 1/4" Durock might be OK depending on the subfloor. I would still try to negotiate with your primary contractor, and explain your concerns. Can you send some pictures? I would like to see the color differences in the grout. The job can be regrouted easily enough.

Jack

 

[brentmc]

Jack--I will post some pictures and really appreciate any other options there might be to move forward with this.

I believe there is 3/4" plywood subfloor under the durock..

I really don't want to remove the floor and just want to be done...