Kitchen Outlets.....All GFCI?

[D45]

I am installing a new kitchen sink and faucet......and want to install new outlets and switches in the kitchen

The current ones are very old and mix matched in color....and don't even match the color of the tile

Do all kitchen sink outlets have to the GFCI? Two of the three are and I am thinking I need all of them to be GFCI


What color outlets and cover plate will I need......almond or ivory? I think the white just stands out way too much

THANKS!

It looks like one is 20amp...…..is that really needed or can I use 15amp outlets????

 

[snickers muncher]

I'm not an electrician, but I just remodeled my kitchen myself. I made the easiest to reach outlet a GFCI. It is also first in the run. I then I ran the other two off of it.

I'd go almond to better match the other colors you have there.

20 or 15 amp would depend on what size wire you have in the wall. I've heard that kitchens are usually 20 when the rest of the house is 15. That's how I did mine.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

All the kitchen outlets need to be either GFI outlets or to be on a GFCI circuit. If you have three outlets on the same circuit (breaker), just the first one needs to be a GFCI and then you're covered. If you have two circuits (breakers) serving the kitchen, both need to be on separate GFCI.

The GFCI at the beginning of a circuit protects all the subsequent outlets downstream. The garbage disposal should be on a separate GFI protected circuit.


Check the breaker, is that 20amp outlet on a 20amp breaker? If so, the first outlet on that circuit should be a 20amp GFCI outlet and the down stream outlets can be either 15amp or 20amp outlets (look at the info on the outlet package and it should state that the outlet is rated to "pass through" 20amps even though you can't plug more then 15amps into it). You should also determine if the wiring on that "20amp circuit" is heavy enough to handle 20amps. Sound like you have an older house and someone might have previously replaced a 15amp breaker with a 20 amp breaker and installed a 20amp outlet on wiring that will ONLY safely support 15amps … happens more often than you think!

Spend a few more nickels and buy the better grade outlets. Don't buy or backstabbing outlets. Back wiring is much better in the long run and safer too. There are too many posts on the forum about electricians finding backstabbed outlets with lots of burn marks on backstab connections from arcing which is dangerous.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

I'm not an electrician, but I just remodeled my kitchen myself. I made the easiest to reach outlet a GFCI as well as the first in the run, and then I ran the other two off of it.

So you had to GFCI outlets on the same circuit?

 

[snickers muncher]

So you had to GFCI outlets on the same circuit?

No. Only the first was a GFCI and the others where normal outlets that were fed off of the GFCI.

 

[D45]

I will flip some breakers today and find out what AMP breakers power which outlets

 

[AntonLargiader]

The GFCI at the beginning of a circuit protects all the subsequent outlets downstream.

... provided you connect the downstream ones to the LOAD terminals.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

I will flip some breakers today and find out what AMP breakers power which outlets

Now is a great time to label the breakers and outlets!

... provided you connect the downstream ones to the LOAD terminals.

Correct. The wiring must be done correctly to protect the downstream outlets.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Code requires 2 SABCs/small appliance branch circuits so need a minimum of 2 GFCIs..

GFCI protection is required within 6' of the edge of the sink.

 

[Gummi Bear]

I don’t like having one GFI protecting an entire circuit.

I prefer to install a GFI at each location. That way, when there is a failure, it is at that location only, and not interrupting an entire circuit.

This is a personal preference.





I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately...

Henry David Thoreau

 

[alfredeneuman]

Code requires 2 SABCs/small appliance branch circuits so need a minimum of 2 GFCIs..
GFCI protection is required within 6' of the edge of the sink.

ALL kitchen countertop receptacles are required to have GFI protection, no matter what distance they are from the sink.
That can be accomplished with 2 GFI outlets, or if in the case of more circuits than required, the number of circuits run to the countertop.

 

[D45]

Code requires 2 SABCs/small appliance branch circuits so need a minimum of 2 GFCIs..

GFCI protection is required within 6' of the edge of the sink.

Well then I need to upgrade to a GFCI on the left side of sink

I have two outlets, one on each side of the sink...…...both are within 2 feet of the sink, only one is GFCI

 

[rlitman]

Code requires 2 SABCs/small appliance branch circuits so need a minimum of 2 GFCIs..

GFCI protection is required within 6' of the edge of the sink.

The 6' requirement is old. Current code requires ALL outlets in a kitchen or bathroom (plus numerous other spaces now) to be GFCI protected.

I seem to recall that the protected outlets need to have that little GFCI protected sticker applied to them as well.

 

[Ray-CA]

I don’t like having one GFI protecting an entire circuit.

I prefer to install a GFI at each location. That way, when there is a failure, it is at that location only, and not interrupting an entire circuit.

This is a personal preference.
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately...

Henry David Thoreau

My understanding and experience is that if you have two (or more) GFCI outlets on the same circuit, they will "fight" with each other and will be constantly trip. If you install a GFCI outlet in the first box, and properly wire the downstream outlets, the GFCI will protect the outlets below it.

Ray

 

[rlitman]

My understanding and experience is that if you have two (or more) GFCI outlets on the same circuit, they will "fight" with each other and will be constantly trip. If you install a GFCI outlet in the first box, and properly wire the downstream outlets, the GFCI will protect the outlets below it.

Ray

They don't fight. But there current is what it is, and downstream ground leakage will trip the upstream GFCI too.

If you wanted to supply one GFI outlet from another, just tap onto the LINE connections instead of the LOAD.

 

[Stuff]

The 6' requirement is old. Current code requires ALL outlets in a kitchen or bathroom (plus numerous other spaces now) to be GFCI protected.

The 6' sink requirement is fairly new for kitchens in single family homes. It is in addition to the kitchen countertop and dishwasher requirement. So a non-countertop wall receptacle more than 6' from the sink doesn't need GFCI - such as for refrigerator. If it is next to the sink then does need GFCI.

AFCI is required for all 120v outlets in a kitchen.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My understanding and experience is that if you have two (or more) GFCI outlets on the same circuit, they will "fight" with each other and will be constantly trip. If you install a GFCI outlet in the first box, and properly wire the downstream outlets, the GFCI will protect the outlets below it.

Ray

Lol fight?

Naw.

One needs to know how GFCIs work.

They measure the current on the hot and neutral (or hot hot and neutral for 240v double pole breakers). If there is an imbalance of more than 5-6ma, then they trip.

Nothing to fight over.....

 

[cybrdyke]

It looks like one is 20amp...…..is that really needed or can I use 15amp outlets????

Most people dont have any 20amp kitchen gadgets.
CD

 

[alfredeneuman]

The 6' sink requirement is fairly new for kitchens in single family homes.

The 2002 edition of the NEC said that ALL receptacle serving the countertop have GFI protection. The only mention of 6' is for wet bar sinks.
By 2011 the requirement changed (within 6' of any sink in other than kitchens)
Fairly new?

 

[PelicanPines]

One thing I will mention. Make sure your Fridge outlet is NON GFCI.

I mention this because there also has to be an outlet within 2 feet (not sure if it's NEC or just my town)… that one needs to be GFCI.

 

[Bert_]

20 or 15 amp would depend on what size wire you have in the wall. I've heard that kitchens are usually 20 when the rest of the house is 15. That's how I did mine.

They are all rated for 20A feed through, even the GFCI's. The only reason to use 20A outlets is if you have devices with a 20A cord end, which is very uncommon.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

So you had to GFCI outlets on the same circuit?

Can you have 2 GFCI on the same circuit?

 

[Norcal]

Can you have 2 GFCI on the same circuit?

You can but your wasting money having one feed through another GFCI.

 

[Stuff]

The 2002 edition of the NEC said that ALL receptacle serving the countertop have GFI protection. The only mention of 6' is for wet bar sinks.
By 2011 the requirement changed (within 6' of any sink in other than kitchens)
Fairly new?

I wasn't referring to the countertop requirements. I would consider 2014 as fairly new as that is when the 6' GFCI rule for sinks in residential kitchens started.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I wasn't referring to the countertop requirements. I would consider 2014 as fairly new as that is when the 6' GFCI rule for sinks in residential kitchens started.

I've only got the Draft Edition of the 2014 NEC,(which isn't totally accurate) but it says:
210.8
(6) Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed to
serve the countertop surfaces
(7) Sinks — located in areas other than kitchens where
receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the
outside edge of the sink

 

[sberry]

Does it call for 2 20A circuits or 2 circuits? You do not need 20A outlets.

 

[Stuff]

I've only got the Draft Edition of the 2014 NEC,(which isn't totally accurate) but it says:
210.8
(6) Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed to
serve the countertop surfaces
(7) Sinks — located in areas other than kitchens where
receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the
outside edge of the sink

The released 2014 dropped the "located in areas other than kitchens"

​

A little clumsy but you can browse NEC at https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-stan...-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&year=2014 - You do need to create an account and they will send you physical junk mail.

 

[75gmck25]

You need two 20 amp GFCI circuits for small appliances. For other circuits the code is less specific, and often interpreted differently by local inspectors. For example, you need receptacles for the dishwasher, disposal, and refrigerator, and you need power to the range hood and to the range, and may need a separate microwave circuit. However, inspectors differ on requirements for dedicated vs. separate circuits for various items. It also depends on the manufacturer, since many items (like over the oven microwaves) specify a dedicated circuit.

This is the 2014 code, and if you read it you can see why the requirement for dedicated vs. shared receptacles is subject to intepretation. Most electricians choose to install two dedicated circuits for the refrigerator and built-in microwave, and may use dedicated or shared for the dishwasher and disposal. Many new high end range hoods draw quite a bit of power, and they may also be on a separate circuit.

"210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.

(B) Small Appliances.

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen."

Bruce

 

[alfredeneuman]

I've never personally seen a kitchen sink that wasn't mounted in the countertop, but I'm sure they exist somewhere

 

[tapered-pin]

For a remodel in GA, any new circuit needs to be Arc Fault protected (regardless of where it is)

 

[Stuff]

I've never personally seen a kitchen sink that wasn't mounted in the countertop, but I'm sure they exist somewhere

Google "1920's kitchen sink" for pictures. Some like that retro look.

 

[AntonLargiader]

"Farm front" isn't really in the countertop, either. Countertop abuts to each side.

 

[snickers muncher]

I've never personally seen a kitchen sink that wasn't mounted in the countertop, but I'm sure they exist somewhere

I made my own wooden counter top---not the best choice of material but it's what the wife wanted. It took awhile for everything to cure, so I had the sink (under-mount farmhouse apron) just sitting in the cabinet and working for about two weeks.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Can you have 2 GFCI on the same circuit?

Yes. But why? If you want multiple protected outlets on the same circuit, use GFI outlets.

GFCIs and GFIs are different. This following line might help:

https://www.homelectrical.com/what-difference-between-gfci-and-gfi.6.html

You can but your wasting money having one feed through another GFCI.

I agree.

 

[Mr. T]

I prefer to install a GFI at each location. That way, when there is a failure, it is at that location only, and not interrupting an entire circuit.

In a world where every GFCI is absolutely identical and trips instantaneously on precisely the same imbalance this might work. In practice, the “fastest” one, or one with the lowest threshold will trip first.

 

[Gummi Bear]

In a world where every GFCI is absolutely identical and trips instantaneously on precisely the same imbalance this might work. In practice, the “fastest” one, or one with the lowest threshold will trip first.

I’m not understanding your comment?¿?¿


I wire them, not in series, but rather in series/parallel. Each one, is responsible for protecting itself, not another. “Location only” is the best way to describe it. It’s not as bad of an issue as it was 20 years ago, but wiring them in series can cause nuisance tripping.

I’m primarily a commercial and industrial electrician, that’s how we wire them.

GFCI’s are intended for personnel protection, not facility protection. I only need for it to interrupt the location of where I am plugged in.



I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately...

Henry David Thoreau

 

[Mr. T]

I’m not understanding your comment?¿?¿


I wire them, not in series, but rather in series/parallel. Each one, is responsible for protecting itself, not another. “Location only” is the best way to describe it. It’s not as bad of an issue as it was 20 years ago, but wiring them in series can cause nuisance tripping.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you are saying. How do you wire receptacles in series and not get an undesired voltage drop at the second (or third, fourth, etc...,) receptacle when multiple loads are connected?

If you wire each GFCI receptacle in parallel from the line side of each device, I get that. Just not how a series/parallel combination works for a 120V branch circuit.

 

[Gummi Bear]

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you are saying. How do you wire receptacles in series and not get an undesired voltage drop at the second (or third, fourth, etc...,) receptacle when multiple loads are connected?

If you wire each GFCI receptacle in parallel from the line side of each device, I get that. Just not how a series/parallel combination works for a 120V branch circuit.

Yessir, that’s what I am trying to describe.


Diagrammatically it is wired in parallel. Terminate wires at the line side of the device only.


Let’s just call it parallel then. (Seldom is a circuit in a building truly one, or the other whenever there is any connected load. The argument can be made that it is all in parallel. However, there is a switch inside of a GFCI device, that is in series. Listening to PE’s try to describe this is a difficult conversation to follow, and it hurts my brain)



I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately...

Henry David Thoreau

 

[alfredeneuman]

Google "1920's kitchen sink" for pictures. Some like that retro look.

I don't like it at all Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Do they come complete with the rainwater cistern and the handle operated pump?

 

[Stuff]

We're supposed to go to 2014 NEC this fall so I'm reading up on it a bit.

I found other twists with 6' sink rule for small galley kitchens. A normal receptacle on the wall across from the sink needs to be GFCI protected as well. Then if the refrigerator or gas stove outlet is close the GFCI rule kicks in. Since they are blocked you have to GFCI upstream to make it readily accessible. I see there is some debate about if a microwave oven receptacle would also be included.