Kitchen Water Boilers... wiring up an idea?

[Lassen Forge]

Every time we travel to the EU (like now), I'm amazed by how fast the counter top water boilers (like for tea, etc.) work over here compared to the USA. Home in the USA, they take 5 minutes+ to work, here, it's like 15-30 seconds, max.

I've thought about getting one over here and sending it home... except the plugs are wrong, (Schuko VS u Ground), and the voltage different (120 vs 240).

But it hit me, as I was at a local "superstore", walking down a DIY aisle... why couldn't I buy a Schuko socket here, bring it home, and wire it into my stove's 240 circuit? I mean, hell, they do it here all the time (hence my lack of fear of 240 - it;s house current over here), normally wiring doesn't faze me...

I'm just wondering if I'm missing something in the equation. The 50/60 Hz difference (I don't think) should matter - it's only a heating element, a thermostat, and a coupling base for the pot. While the plugs and mounting are different, they don't seem impossible.

Any ideas or comments? Stuff I should know before I go back to the DIY aisle, buy "stuff", and wire in a 240 socket for one back at home in the states? Enquiring minds want to know...

 

[yeldogt]

It's because they are 220v .. I have a house in cape town SA w/ 220 .. they are quick.

With 220v -- it's the reason for fused plugs. The plug is the safety device. This is true in almost all of the world .. except the USA. You would not want to cut off the EU plug and retrofit it to go into the USA 220v without the safety plug.

 

[Norcal]

It's because they are 220v .. I have a house in cape town SA w/ 220 .. they are quick.

With 220v -- it's the reason for fused plugs. The plug is the safety device. This is true in almost all of the world .. except the USA. You would not want to cut off the EU plug and retrofit it to go into the USA 220v without the safety plug.

The only plug that is fused is the UK model because the receptacle is on a 32A ring circuit, the Schuko is not fused as there is no need since only the Brits use those goofy ring circuits.

Tapping a 15-20A receptacle off a 40-50A range circuit as proposed by the OP is neither code compliant nor safe, run a proper 240V circuit & replace the OEM plug with a NEMA configuration.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

The only plug that is fused is the UK model because the receptacle is on a 32A ring circuit, the Schuko is not fused as there is no need since only the Brits use those goofy ring circuits.

Tapping a 15-20A receptacle off a 40-50A range circuit as proposed by the OP is neither code compliant nor safe, run a proper 240V circuit & replace the OEM plug with a NEMA configuration.

Why is it not safe? Is it that the breaker is less likely to trip? In that case having a fused plug would solve the problem? PS; I don't give a rats *** about code in this particular case...it's hypothetical.

 

[American Locomotive]

The main issue is a device could draw more current than the socket is rated for.

To the OP, the safest way to do what you propose is to run another 240v circuit to your kitchen, and install a NEMA 6-15 or 6-20 outlet. However I believe you'd need a double-pole GFCI breaker since the outlet would in the kitchen. Those don't come cheap.

 

[Lassen Forge]

If the socket is a 16 amp EU spec and the appliance going into it is a 16 amp EU spec... and the GFI feeding it is a GFI compliant breaker... how can it magically be unsafe to use, if it's being used all over the EU with no apparent huge range of fires?

I DO realize that motors and logic circuits designed for the EU won't work (50 vs 60 hz) but for simple devices, or those rated for either (100-250V 50/60 hz) I can''t see how, if they're safe to use in, say, Italy, they magically become unsafe in the USA?

I do agree with the idea of not running things tied into an inappropriately rated system, so I will likely run it on its own circuit, not off the stove circuit. And enjoy hot water faster.

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something logically incorrect... at least people will look at the strange plugs and not plug my proctor silex blender into it!

The idea that an appliance that draws 5 amps magically drawing 10 amps if it's on a larger breaker - doesn't fly. Otherwise putting a 15 watt bulb on a 20 amp circuit vs a 10 amp circuit would magically draw more amps... and I DO know electricity doesn't work like that (sorry)....

 

[American Locomotive]

If the socket is a 16 amp EU spec and the appliance going into it is a 16 amp EU spec... and the GFI feeding it is a GFI compliant breaker... how can it magically be unsafe to use, if it's being used all over the EU with no apparent huge range of fires?

There's nothing wrong with that. But that's not what you proposed. You originally proposed tying off your stove circuit, which is typically 50A.

The idea that an appliance that draws 5 amps magically drawing 10 amps if it's on a larger breaker - doesn't fly. Otherwise putting a 15 watt bulb on a 20 amp circuit vs a 10 amp circuit would magically draw more amps... and I DO know electricity doesn't work like that (sorry)....

The problem is during a fault condition, it may be possible for the appliance to draw more current than the outlet is rated for.

 

[manwithtools]

There's nothing wrong with that. But that's not what you proposed. You originally proposed tying off your stove circuit, which is typically 50A.

The problem is during a fault condition, it may be possible for the appliance to draw more current than the outlet is rated for.

And - far less current than the OCPD for the range, so you have a situation where the outlet and the wire feeding it becomes the fuse - if you tap it off the range circuit. If you feed it with it's own properly rated and protected circuit there should be no problem.

BTW, don't forget the water boiler unit is likely not UL Listed, so if down the road there is a failure / fire AND your insurance company wanted to be difficult.....


BTW, are there not 240 volt versions of these things available in the US? I don't know a thing about them so I have to ask.

 

[sberry]

The problem is during a fault condition, it may be possible for the appliance to draw more current than the outlet is rated for

We are back to this again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, that is not the problem. The problem is that the device itself is not rated to run on a 50A circuit, the internals are not rated for short circuit interruption from a 50A circuit. Anything here that comes with a 15 end is designed to run on a 20, as in another thread I elaborated a bit on earlier with the compressor, putting a 30 on a 20 recept allows stuff that is listed for 20 to be plugged in to a 30.
With some pieces, some stuff with its own thermal its not if it draws more its the wiring in the fixture may be 16, not fault rated for 30. It doesn't magically draw more current and overheat the supply wire or even the socket, its within the device itself.
With some stuff like Christmas tree lights they add a fuse for the tiny wire, wires too small to short a 20 during a fault.

 

[American Locomotive]

We're not talking about hooking stuff rated for 15a up to a 20a circuit. We're talking about 16a stuff being hooked up to a 50a.

 

[sberry]

Think about fixtures and even a tailored welder circuit with reduced wire size. The applied load is what protects the wire from thermal the way an Edison base protects the fixture wire, they simply don't make a lamp large enough that will screw in to that base to overheat the wire. In fact the wire on many appliances is way heaver than it needs,,, take Bulls torpedo heater. The wire or cord it comes with is 2x what it needs to power the unit, it still eeds to be rated to plug in to a 20.
Many appliances that often use the same internals have the leads and wire upsized when used on a 30A 240 over a 120V circuit. They actually draw half the current, have a bigger wire due to the fact that they do not have additional protection but rely on the breaker it comes with for fault protection. This is why they have a factory supplied cord and end.

 

[sberry]

We're not talking about hooking stuff rated for 15a up to a 20a circuit. We're talking about 16a stuff being hooked up to a 50a.

This is what I am trying to tell you but it doesn't seem to connect. The 16 isn't rated to be plugged to a 50, only 20 max.

 

[sberry]

My explanation likely leaves a lot to be desired,,, secondly, you are smarter than I am, almost would bet on this so its not an issue but I keep going around to this because its something obviously misunderstood on this forum, the nature of cord and plug design related to breaker size. Alfred poked at me earlier in another thread when I suggested that some stuff can be safely ran on a 30 that is listed and comes with a 20,,, but it is dependent on the internal design of the device. It has to meet certain requirements to be safe (slightly different issue than code compliant) ( its code for a good reason) . Its not that it will suddenly start drawing 10A where it drew 8 but that it will draw 60 or 100, it doesn't really effect the socket, doesn't effect the 12 wire but does the 16 cord or internals to the unit.
American is the kind of guy that likely knows more about electricity than I never will, this is not an issue but the understanding in this one area is lacking, it wants to become an argument where there should be some listening going on.
I am using the 15 and 20 circuits as examples, the plug limits the max amperage circuit it can be used on, has nothing to do with what a lot of it draws, has nothing to do with overheating the recept.

 

[grantw]

So... I've done this with a friend who moved in from the EU. He brought a 2L water kettle, Rancilio Silvia Espresso Machine, and a Rancilio grinder. We wired up a 20A 240V outlet in his kitchen, and enjoyed espresso when we were done.

http://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/CH/CH-T12_tripleSocket.jpg

This outlet pattern is what we brought home from Switzerland, and all 3 devices connected right up. We mated this outlet on top of a single gang box and had a good solid connection. All of the appliances were grounded and had no neutral-ground faults before we attempted run the gear.

It's worth noting that EU 230V L-N 50Hz is NOT N/A 240V L-L 60Hz

But, if you fudge the numbers, it's a small % difference in voltage normally tolerated by most appliances. Heating elements will be fine, as they don't care about 50/60Hz, but motors and AC drivern timer circuits will care about the 50/60Hz difference. The grinder motor and espresso pump run slightly faster on 240/60Hz than they would on 230V/50Hz, but as long as you factor that in to your duty cycles, which the espresso machine and grinder had, you'll be fine.

There is no reason why you couldn't bring a 230V kettle over from the EU, but if it melts down and takes your house with it, good luck. It's not a safety issue if you wire it right, and the appliance is insulated correctly, but it will become an insurance issue if anything goes wrong.

insurance adjusters love finding non-listed parts in your house to point blame and claim non-coverage. that is the biggest issue with eu-spec appliances / outlets.

 

[Lassen Forge]

So... I've done this with a friend who moved in from the EU. He brought a 2L water kettle, Rancilio Silvia Espresso Machine, and a Rancilio grinder. We wired up a 20A 240V outlet in his kitchen, and enjoyed espresso when we were done.

http://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/CH/CH-T12_tripleSocket.jpg

This outlet pattern is what we brought home from Switzerland, and all 3 devices connected right up. We mated this outlet on top of a single gang box and had a good solid connection. All of the appliances were grounded and had no neutral-ground faults before we attempted run the gear.

It's worth noting that EU 230V L-N 50Hz is NOT N/A 240V L-L 60Hz

But, if you fudge the numbers, it's a small % difference in voltage normally tolerated by most appliances. Heating elements will be fine, as they don't care about 50/60Hz, but motors and AC drivern timer circuits will care about the 50/60Hz difference. The grinder motor and espresso pump run slightly faster on 240/60Hz than they would on 230V/50Hz, but as long as you factor that in to your duty cycles, which the espresso machine and grinder had, you'll be fine.

There is no reason why you couldn't bring a 230V kettle over from the EU, but if it melts down and takes your house with it, good luck. It's not a safety issue if you wire it right, and the appliance is insulated correctly, but it will become an insurance issue if anything goes wrong.

insurance adjusters love finding non-listed parts in your house to point blame and claim non-coverage. that is the biggest issue with eu-spec appliances / outlets.

THANK YOU! This is the info I was hoping to find out... the initial idea of running a stub from the stove, while convenient, would have serious consequences, and I would have to run a new circuit... not a problem. (I even considered buying a full circuit set from breaker box on... because of the L-n VS L-L issue... yes or no?)

One of my biggest concerns was if the 60 HZ would play havoc on the 50 hz heating elements (obviously not), and if we DID bring an espresso machine what problems we would face (for the same reason).

Our "240" in the states comes up 234v... ours in Italy comes up 238. I don't think that's too much difference...

Anyway, thank you!

 

[sberry]

Mine is 243. But out of curiosity,,, if the thing came with a fused plug how big was the fuse? The new circuit needs to match that.
Now a disclaimer first,,,, but, in theory it may be able to be connected to 50 provided there was additional protection depending on cord size etc. I believe Norcal said these circuits were 32A so its likely the plug cord was rated short circuit for that.

 

[larry_g]

Might I suggest another Idea. Bottom line is you want fast boiling water. Look at the Wattage of the devices you are finding over there and compare them to what you find here. More wattage =faster heating time. Just wandering google I came up with a 120v 1750 watt kettle that heats 1 liter in 90 sec. It's more watts that make it faster, not more voltage. Heat time is also a function of water volume.

http://zapkitchen.com/best-compact-electric-kettle-for-traveling/

lg
no neat sig line

 

[sberry]

I totally agree. Why re invent something or wire up a 2 pole circuit that needs to be tailored when one could be found that plugs in to a common outlet.

 

[grantw]

I totally agree. Why re invent something or wire up a 2 pole circuit that needs to be tailored when one could be found that plugs in to a common outlet.

For my friend who moved back from the EU, the espresso machine was a good $1K plus a few hundred more for the grinder. If you check some coffee snob forums like homebarista, you will find there is quite a niche market for EU spec machines, as their heating element wattages tend to be much higher than their N/A counterparts.

Although, that will only be for the "pro-sumer" lines. There are plenty of commercial machines that run on 3 phase and 240V and are UL listed for sale in North America.

 

[Wirepuller]

Feeding a small load tapped directly off a large circuit used to happen all the time.

No more than 10'

The tap conductors must be no less than 10x the ampacity of the feeder.

tap conductors must be larger than the calculated load they supply.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[manwithtools]

Feeding a small load tapped directly off a large circuit used to happen all the time.

No more than 10'

The tap conductors must be no less than 10x the ampacity of the feeder.

tap conductors must be larger than the calculated load they supply.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you mean the tap conductors must be no less than 10% of feeder ampacity if they leave the vault or enclosure? See 240.21(B)(1)(4)

Anyway, tap rule does not apply in this case, this is a branch circuit not a feeder. If it were a feeder circuit, the tap could be less than 10% ampacity if it terminates in a OCPD.

 

[sberry]

insurance adjusters love finding non-listed parts in your house to point blame and claim non-coverage.

Insurance co's insure all kinds of junk all the time. Millions of faulty circuits are insured every day. I have never seen or heard of one denied from this.