Kreg Edge-Festool Domino Killer?
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PowrKraftsman
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Looks like it’s only available as powered by Kreg batteries. Perhaps with the cost of batteries over time the Kreg might still be a better value (assuming it works well) but I still don’t love that it’s not corded.
Vinny
Well-known member
Doubt it. Festool makes plenty of other common tools like routers, drills, sanders, etc. that all come at a similar price point compared to other brands. But they are some of the finest tools available.
The price on the Kreg is pretty steep. I'd expect a made in China knock off to be 300 or 400, not almost 500.
rancherbill
Well-known member
Maybe maybe not. If the patents are off Kreg obviously went overseas and probably sourced in China. It will be on temu or Aliexpress pretty quickly.
Kreg seemingly is only bringing a cut rate price to the table. There of lots of companies that sell on price.
Kreg seemingly is only bringing a cut rate price to the table. There of lots of companies that sell on price.
Nobody-named-Olli
Well-known member
Killer? No. Highly likely a strong contender? Yes, if they took the time to get it right.
Kind regards,
Olli
Kind regards,
Olli
neophyte
Well-known member
There have been plenty of “cheaper” versions of premium priced tools in the past.
Sometimes those cheaper options worked just as well, or almost as well as the original.
In other cases, the cheaper options were made with poor precision and accuracy, or lower cost components and materials, or were simpler designs.
Every once in a while though, one of the copies might be excellent.
Lamello originated the Biscuit Joiner, and still arguably makes the most respected models, but the Porter Cable 557 was almost as good, and had a few upgraded design features that were arguably better, and the price was 1/2 to 1/3 what the top Lamello models cost when it was introduced.
Virutex of Spain made a simpler model, that was simply solidly built, as did Makita, and Dewalt, (when the machining was done properly).
As far as Kreg goes, they make quality products, in all price ranges, but they’re sort of new at power tools.
The Festool Domino seems like the type of tool requiring durable materials, and quality manufacture, and I don’t know whether Kreg will have that ability.
I would probably be more interested in Virutex making a clone of the Domino, or maybe Bosch, or Makita, or Milwaukee.
As far as pricing goes, the clones might be cheaper than Festool, but it’s unlikely Festool would lower prices.
They only really have done this in the past with tools that are being discontinued.
It might make the Domino biscuits available cheaper from other sources, or maybe alternative connector options.
Sometimes those cheaper options worked just as well, or almost as well as the original.
In other cases, the cheaper options were made with poor precision and accuracy, or lower cost components and materials, or were simpler designs.
Every once in a while though, one of the copies might be excellent.
Lamello originated the Biscuit Joiner, and still arguably makes the most respected models, but the Porter Cable 557 was almost as good, and had a few upgraded design features that were arguably better, and the price was 1/2 to 1/3 what the top Lamello models cost when it was introduced.
Virutex of Spain made a simpler model, that was simply solidly built, as did Makita, and Dewalt, (when the machining was done properly).
As far as Kreg goes, they make quality products, in all price ranges, but they’re sort of new at power tools.
The Festool Domino seems like the type of tool requiring durable materials, and quality manufacture, and I don’t know whether Kreg will have that ability.
I would probably be more interested in Virutex making a clone of the Domino, or maybe Bosch, or Makita, or Milwaukee.
As far as pricing goes, the clones might be cheaper than Festool, but it’s unlikely Festool would lower prices.
They only really have done this in the past with tools that are being discontinued.
It might make the Domino biscuits available cheaper from other sources, or maybe alternative connector options.
neophyte
Well-known member
The Duo Dowller from Mafell got copied in China, and the copies routinely seemed to have complaints about the precision with which the tools were made and how this affected the quality and precision of joints.
I would presume that maybe the extra $100-$200 would be to get the tool closer to properly made.
neophyte
Well-known member
Kreg also manufactures a couple cordless pocket hole joining tools, and various cordless drills and impact drivers, and cordless trim routers, and a few cordless track saws, etc.
The major advantage to the Kreg “Domino”, would be for customers who already purchased or who would be interested in one or both of the cordless pocket hole tools, with the advantage of battery compatibility, with tools at lower, or in dome cases, significantly lower prices than Festool.
Basically, the same reason people buy Milwaukee cordless, and stick with other Milwaukee tools, or Hilti, and then continue purchasing Hilti tools.
I've got a Dominoi picked up used that I need to use more, would still rather buy the original vs the knockoff at 60% of the price. I expect the Kreg to work well, but it's still a 500 dollar copy. If they copied it close enough the various aftermarket add ons work with it that would help their case.
I believe I saw on social media that Marc Spagnolo/The Wood Whisperer is supposed to get hands on time with it today and will review it, will be interesting to hear his thoughts
I believe I saw on social media that Marc Spagnolo/The Wood Whisperer is supposed to get hands on time with it today and will review it, will be interesting to hear his thoughts
strutaeng
Well-known member
Festool killer? Nah, they'll still be plenty of Festool Kool-aide drinkers...LOL
I have the regular Domino and it's pretty sweet. Didn't use it as much as I thought, mainly because haven't done a lot woodworking on-and-off and I still do traditional mortise/tenon when the project calls for it. I would definitely consider that Kreg for $500, especially if it can also do the larger joinery. Would have preferred it was corded though.
I have the regular Domino and it's pretty sweet. Didn't use it as much as I thought, mainly because haven't done a lot woodworking on-and-off and I still do traditional mortise/tenon when the project calls for it. I would definitely consider that Kreg for $500, especially if it can also do the larger joinery. Would have preferred it was corded though.
jar944
Well-known member
It will be interesting to see if they can get the tolerance and precision required.
IndyGarage
Well-known member
Every Chinese company will make a version, they'll get it down into the $200 range just like they did the track saw. I'm betting Festool will come down a bit, but they'll mostly just take the hit - they aren't selling to price sensitive customers anyway.
I know I got beat down on the domino thread, but I still think Domino's are just the new version of biscuits, and you can find a biscuit joiner at a yard sale for $20. I really cannot see much advantage to them over biscuits and if you really want cheap there's always pocket holes.. I'm betting in 30 years you'll find these at yard sales too.
I know I got beat down on the domino thread, but I still think Domino's are just the new version of biscuits, and you can find a biscuit joiner at a yard sale for $20. I really cannot see much advantage to them over biscuits and if you really want cheap there's always pocket holes.. I'm betting in 30 years you'll find these at yard sales too.
PowrKraftsman
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I can’t speak to this guy’s specific motivation, but I always assume that internet influencers who get sent free tools or otherwise have access before they’re released to the public generally feel at least an implicit obligation to give positive reviews.
jar944
Well-known member
Except the decent track saws are still $400. A couple 0.001" off on the machining of the plunge rails or fence will make it a very irritating tool to use that gets left in a drawer (like a biscuit joiner)
Just like in the other domino thread, biscuits and loose tenons (regardless of the name) are not comparable, pocket screws are fantastic but in no way a substitute for either. All have their ideal application.
A more than healthy "grain of salt" in my mind should be taken with all online reviews, no disagreement at all.
In this case I feel Marc does it fairly and isn't afraid to call out what he sees as faults and he's got a Domino so he's very familiar with the "OG" tool and should be able to do a fair comparison of them.
There are some other channels out there that I'd be less inclined to trust as they never seem to review anything poorly, but Marc seems to call them fairly on what works, what doesn't.
Personally I hope it's a hit for Kreg. They're "local-ish" to me as based in central Iowa, I know a few people there and hope that if the Kreg version ends up in more cabinets and workbenches more accy's will come to market for them and more folks will incorporate them into projects. If you're doing plans/online builds right now there can be a bit of a "negative" reaction depending on your channel demographics when you pull out a Domino for the build so many content creaters/makers will use biscuits/dowels/pocket screws instead because it's seen as "more accessible" to the masses...which isn't wrong.
PowrKraftsman
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I hope Kreg’s tool succeeds but that other tool manufacturers also jump into the Domino clone game. I’d be excited for a corded model at that price point.
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
No comparison between biscuits and Dominos really. Biscuits don't replace Dominos in narrow stock joinery or in accurate alignment of joining parts. Pocket holes have their place and it's not in fine furniture work, generally they are used in cabinetry style work.
IndyGarage
Well-known member
I don't know, the reviews of the $111 Wen track saw are 88% 4 or 5 stars, so I'd say it's a successful product. The only negative reviews I read are with the durability of the saw, not the accuracy. Seems like there are a few that have been dead on arrival or shortly after use. I haven't used one, so I don't know if it's really good or not.
I haven't used the Domino, but nobody convinced me in the other thread that they are actually stronger or more accurate than biscuits, just much more expensive, and maybe the machine feels like higher precision. I was convinced they may be faster if you are a heavy user of them. To me the reason to use them or biscuits is for alignment purposes
Here's a video where a guy tests the strength of dominos vs dowels vs biscuits vs just glue. Dowels were stronger - biscuits, dominos and just glue all about the same - interestingly he didn't believe the result and says he must have made a mistake:
neophyte
Well-known member
There was a test years ago in one of the major woodworking magazines, maybe Fine Woodworking, and I seem to recall their testing coming out with dowels as the weakest joint, with glued mortise and tenon joints being strongest, and biscuits when glued being in between.
I think the test might have also included pocket screws, which came up weakest.
Other tests since then, I think on youtube, seem to come up with different results.
The usual explanation over why “dowels ****”, is that the dowel hole in side grain jointing, has a significant amount of end grain, and glue doesn’t attach well to the end grain, leaving a weak glue joint.
Christopher Schwarz over on his Lost Art Press blog has pointed out, that if you wanted to glue to end grain, the way to do it, was to rub glue on the end grain, and to let that glue “soak in” and dry slightly, and then to apply another glue layer, essentially filling up the little straws that make up the end grain, so there is a sealed surface to glue against. (I forget whether Chris was using hide glue, or basic wood glue).
This might explain the differing results using dowel joints, with different concentrations or viscosities of glue.
The other main advantages of dowels or the dominoes, is the off the shelf availability of “rot resistant” joining elements, with Sipo available for Domino joints, and various tot resistant dowels available, although I can’t seem to find the source for the German made Robinia/Black Locust dowels that used to be available.
Biscuits meanwhile tend to be birch, whether USA made or European made, and other than plastic, you would have to make your own biscuits if you want rot resistance.
whateg01
Well-known member
I don't know what all was said in your other discussion but a tenon is not the same as a biscuit, even if they are being used that way much of the time.
whateg01
Well-known member
I think Matthias did a test of the strength that way and iirc, the was little loss in strength. I haven't seen any joinery comparisons since then with the dowel holes don't this way, but for side to end grain, I think it might bring the dowel closer to tenon strength.
Pretty subtle, aren't they?
rjn2649
Well-known member
Not a major woodworker, but I've built stuff. I have a biscuit joiner, pocket hole, and dowel jigs. I've used each one in different places. I think each one has their uses. All the stuff I've built is still pretty much around, although none of it was commercial use.
I don't see Festool changing the price. cheap people are not their demographic.
IF I want to play with a domino joiner, I'll wait for Harbor freight to come out with a corded one. I do like Kregg stuff, but that does seem pricey for a copy.
I don't see Festool changing the price. cheap people are not their demographic.
IF I want to play with a domino joiner, I'll wait for Harbor freight to come out with a corded one. I do like Kregg stuff, but that does seem pricey for a copy.
IndyGarage
Well-known member
I'm sure you could do a test and have any type of joint come out better than the other. They were so close in the test video I posted that it may just be random. And yes your glue technique probably can be optimized.
The argument over and over from the Domino folks is they are stronger and in my engineering mind, I cannot make out how they would be as long as the cross section of the biscuit or the dowels is the same as the cross section of the Domino. I do understand how Dominos "locate" the joint in two directions, which might be an advantage in some conditions. Biscuits are positive locating in one direction and have movement in the other - which was always sold as an advantage.
As far as rot resistance that may be a good argument, but it's a pretty small percentage of applications for fine woodworking and if you have water intrusion in the joint, you have other problems.
I'm not a heavy woodworker, but I've done some, and honestly none of my biscuit or pocket hole joints have come apart under normal conditions as far as I know. I haven't done much with dowels, and none with Dominoes but I'm sure they would be strong and last a long time also.
I like that the Domino machine is now going to be copied. It will bring the price down into the reasonable level for normal folks and if they really are better then we will have better products as a result.
neophyte
Well-known member
The Domino joint us basically a “floating mortise and tenon” joint, with the domino “dowel” or whatever Festool calls it, as the floating tenon.
Floating tenons have been a thing for decades, if not over a century, and probably became common after industrial machinery was made that could quickly cut an accurate mortise slot, maybe going back to chisel mortisers or slot mortisers.
The actual history of floating tenon use gies back to Ancient Egypt, since I think some Egyptian ships used the technique to **** joint planks for ship building, and the technique was also used for cooperage.
Dowels likely have just as long a history. The main advantage of the Mafell Duo Dowel system and now clones, is that it allowed two dowel holes to be drilled quickly, with accurate parallelism to a board face, and the Duo Dowellers allowed use similar to a biscuit joiner.
The Festool Domino basically did the same thing, but with a floating tenon.
The main issue with the clone Duo Dowellers, is that some of the cheap knockoffs were not actually machined properly enough for parallel holes, or had loose machining, which threw of accuracy, which is a major problem with dowel holes.
The same issue happened back in the day when most power tool manufacturers were making biscuit joiners, with some models not cutting parallel slots.
As far as rot resistance, it’s not really an issue fir internal use in a building, with the exception of areas subject to high humidity, or fluctuating humidity between high and low, or in areas were the wood might get soaked occasionally, such as bathrooms or kitchens.
For outdoor use, biscuits would be a major issue.
Even supposedly “waterproof” glues, like Titebond, can fail in outdoor use, although the example I recall seeing might not have been glued using all the possible tricks to avoid glue joint failure, such as solvent wiping the glue surface.
The glue would be the only thing preventing water from getting at the biscuits, and the beechwood usually used for the biscuit plywood can be prone to rotting.
Even oak will rot when exposed to moisture and drying cycles over years or a decade.
Technically, biscuits are also supposed to expand slightly in the joint, so there is an addition of friction, but that is barely structural, unlike dowels or dominos, which inherently have weight baring capacity even without glue, and which can also have friction strength, particularly in the case of dowels.
The biscuits could also allowed for cross *******, as could dowels, although less so.
SO STOKED the patent looks to be lifting!
Like previous tools that weve come to appreciate- multi tool (Fein) and track saw (Festool) these will plummet in price. There will be varying degrees of quality, and the Domino itself will now actually need to compete on price.
I for one appreciate what Festool brings with innovation (or at lease used to bring), but the flood gates are opening and I will be grabbing the best deal.
neophyte
Well-known member
Festool doesn’t “compete on price”, and I’m not sure they ever have.
Fesyool simply tries to add additional features, or additional accessories to to potentially make the tools a better more versatile competitor, although they then have a history of discontinuing these accessories, leaving customers stranded if the customers thought they could buy tools and outfit the tools over time, to spread out the much higher costs.
Most other major power tool manufacturers, whether Bosch, or Makita, (with dome weird exceptions), or Dewalt, usually supply 90% of the performance at 1/3 the price, or at least they used to.
Festool was sometimes better at nit price gouging accessories than the major power tool manufacturers, but this varied a bit.
rancherbill
Well-known member
You have to take some time and learn about the REAL World not the 1970s world you appear to be living in right now.
China is way ahead of the US in many many areas especially in manufacturing, shipbuilding, robotics, alternate energy amongst others.
You will see the precision and tolerances that are called out in the spec by whoever is bringing them into the US.
jar944
Well-known member
Festool can't hit the tolerance every time, why would kreg be any different.
Also you really read into that, I never mentioned COO as the issue.