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Laminated posts questions and concerns

arkansas

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I am having a detached garage built in Arkansas and had some questions regarding laminated posts. The builder I chose really sold me on the idea, but when I went out today to see the progress I had some concerns.

Are there supposed to be gaps between the boards where seated?
Most of the posts are like this, should I be concerned?

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

IMG_20160206_165516.jpg

IMG_20160206_165358.jpg
 
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Jmonnty

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I am having a detached garage built in Arkansas and had some questions regarding laminated posts. The builder I chose really sold me on the idea, but when I went out today to see the progress I had some concerns.

Are there supposed to be gaps between the boards where seated?
Most of the posts are like this, should I be concerned?

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

IMG_20160206_165516.jpg

IMG_20160206_165358.jpg

Can you post a higher res picture?
The gaps between the layers are normal but not lengthwise, how big is that gap?

Montgomery
 

DBendr

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He's a stooge. Laminating a column does not mean halfass nail gun slam together of a few scraps and calling it a day.
Here's what a lamination looks like.
Rosboro-Custom-Glulam-08.jpg
 

Jmonnty

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Those gaps are unacceptable. Is that treated and untreated together in the same post?What fasteners is he using and how is he laying them up?


Most of my experience is in commercial construction but we have an equipment shed with laminated posts.
 

Cyberbear

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It looks like the contractor wanted to create a saddle for a beam and used remnants nailed to the support piece in the middle. That is acceptable only if the outside pieces run full length w/o any weakening joints. You may want to insist he do it correctly, or call out the inspector and see what he has to say about it.
 

ishiboo

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Those gaps are unacceptable. Is that treated and untreated together in the same post?What fasteners is he using and how is he laying them up?


Most of my experience is in commercial construction but we have an equipment shed with laminated posts.

Midwest (Menards) makes columns the same way, though no gaps. There is treated at the bottom for post holes/etc., and then they switch to plain #1 SYP. It's both a cost savings measure, and means you can use regular steel fasteners/brackets/etc. above ground level. 20' and lower are all PT.

The PT areas use stainless steel splice plates, stainless rivet-clinched nails that go through the entire lamination, etc.
 

theoldwizard1

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You m̶a̶y̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ MUST insist he do it correctly, or call out the inspector and see what he has to say about it.

ABSOLUTELY !

As others have stated, that is not a "laminated" column. HOWEVER that does NOT mean that 3 "built up" boards do NOT meet the specifications. "Built up" columns are widely used and typically less expensive, but must be approved by the engineer or a "variation" from the inspector.

Of course that gap does not pass "muster".

Also, seems odd that 1 of the boards is PT and the other are not. Any wood that touches concrete, should be PT.
 

DieselPills

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Holy ****. Please fire this guy immediately. Report him to the state so he doesn't screw somebody else!! That isn't acceptable even as a temporary support during construction...:eyecrazy:

If you let him continue this way, your building will fall down. Simple as that.
 

readhead

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I wouldn't go so far as to say the building will fall down but that is pretty poor quality work. Did he build the posts or were they delivered that way? If they were delivered I would be dissapointed that he accepted them. I see in the first picture that all three 2x's start as PT and the laps are staggered after that. Were the proper nails used in the PT section? The end gaps are definitely a concern but in his mind the only board carrying the load is the center one.

I would talk to him and indicate that it is unacceptable and to rework the posts. The nails in the PT portion would be more of a concern to me. The big question to me is if this is an indication of the quality of the work that you will experiance throughout the rest of the build.

Hopefully the confrontation will be civil and the work will proceed to everyones satisfaction.
 

jimgood

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The laminated posts in my barn and indoor riding arena are finger jointed where the ends **** together and glued the entire length. Nailing **** together ain't lamination in my book.
 

readhead

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Your book may be missing a few pages. The headers in your house are probably nailed together laminations and all the kings and trimmers around the doors and windows. Sounds like you have good quality construction in your out buildings. What you are seeing in this thread is very common practice for pole buildings. The reasoning is the laminated posts will be less expensive and are much less prone to twisting than solid PT posts. The question here is the quality of execution.
 

KaiserJeep

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Those pictures are leading me to a think a couple of things. First, IMO, they are no way complete in their assembly. A couple of air driven framing nails in the joint area are doing no good other than holding the outside board to the middle board. There's plenty of space there for a steel plate to be installed later. Once all the columns are plumbed, the joints could be secured with bolts all the way through the 3 members. Second, the gaps between the lower and upper members are not that bad, if all three members are secured as one unit.

When we built our posts, used treated at the bottom, SYP above ground level. We assembled them as we moved up in elevation. Piecing them together, with 4' staggered joints, getting all plumb and square, while attaching the sidewall purlins. I didn't use steel plates at the joints, but did fill the posts with 60p pole barn nails (ring shank) using an air nailer. Groups of 5 nails, shot in from both sides at 2' intervals.

The strength of a nail-laminated beam, is dependent upon securing all three members together, in a methodical pattern. Just attaching the outside members to the inside member, places all the stress on the inside member. The 60p pole barn nails we used, in some cases, extended all the way through built up posts, with the point sticking out the far member.

OP, keep an eye on the those columns. I don't believe they are in no way complete. But if the contractor wants to leave them that unsecured, I suggest having a discussion with him.
 
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TractorJeff

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In the posted photo's even the center leg has a gap. Are all the posts like this?
As indicated by the variation of acceptance/non-acceptance across the US. I too recommend a discussion between You and the Builder as its your money while keeping the thought of getting the local Building Inspector involved if necessary.
 

pmiranda

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Is it just an artifact of the picture, or are some of those columns not even straight and plumb?

I'm guessing the gaps are to keep the cheap SIP from wicking moisture up from the PT? Is there construction adhesive between the layers? If so, then the few nails you see are just to hold the layers together while it cures.
Still, it's basically the same as notching a column, which is not allowed as far as I know, since it can no longer carry the same load. You can notch a stud because it's part of a wall system where side/twisting loads are shared between the studs.
 

DieselPills

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I wouldn't go so far as to say the building will fall down but that is pretty poor quality work.

If the rest of the building is built to the same standards as those posts, it surely will.

What is pictured here is not acceptable even if unfinished! Those gaps between the boards will be there even if you put a metal plate and half inch bolts on top! NOT OK! The cuts don't even look straight...

If you try to use that post to support any weight, all the weight will be shearing against the nails or whatever else is holding it together. No end to end support. I don't care what kind of bolts you use, that is not ok.

Laminated posts are usually made in a factory, under great pressure, and engineered. If they are made on the job they have to be done right or not done at all.

I wonder if there is any glue in there what so ever?
 
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readhead

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I think you made the same point that I did. The rest of the build could be suspect if that is the
general quality of work.

As to falling down, not likely. A building is a redundant system. Ever watch the news and see a car drive through the living room wall? The house is usually still standing. Tornado damage may show one end of the house missing but the rest is still standing. If this level of work was causing buildings to fall down then I think it wouldn't be safe to walk down the street.

Do a little research on shear values and systems and start with the shear value of a 12d nail.

I think everybody so far agrees that the quality of the work is questionable and needs to be resolved before work continues. Comparing GLB's to site built laminated posts is not even an issue here. Site built posts are the norm for this kind of construction.
 

DieselPills

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As to falling down, not likely. A building is a redundant system. Ever watch the news and see a car drive through the living room wall? The house is usually still standing. Tornado damage may show one end of the house missing but the rest is still standing. If this level of work was causing buildings to fall down then I think it wouldn't be safe to walk down the street.

It is not uncommon during some sort of natural disaster for a poorly built building to simply fold over an literally squish everything inside. It mostly happens in 3rd world countries where building codes don't exist, but I suspect Arkansas isn't very strict on inspections either.

Yes, poorly built buildings really do fall down. I was being a bit facetious, but it could really happen.
 

readhead

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I think we have met in the middle on this one. I am anxious to hear from the OP later today for a progress report.
 

lakeroadster

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Some of the replies on this thread are as scary as the photo's that were posted. :eyecrazy:

FYI: The correct terminology is "Built Up Column", not "Laminated Post".

OP, I share your concerns. Section 15.3.3 of the NDS has specifications for nailing as well as end, edge and row spacing guidelines.

Is this a Lester, Cleary or Morton building? Any type of a structural warranty?
 
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jives

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If the rest of the building is built to the same standards as those posts, it surely will.

What is pictured here is not acceptable even if unfinished! Those gaps between the boards will be there even if you put a metal plate and half inch bolts on top! NOT OK! The cuts don't even look straight...

If you try to use that post to support any weight, all the weight will be shearing against the nails or whatever else is holding it together. No end to end support. I don't care what kind of bolts you use, that is not ok.

Laminated posts are usually made in a factory, under great pressure, and engineered. If they are made on the job they have to be done right or not done at all.

I wonder if there is any glue in there what so ever?

^^^This^^^^. Building is entirely unacceptable. Glued under high pressure, and preferably with finger joints. Mechanically fastened on top if it all.
 

myredracer

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Completely unacceptable and won't meet code. The columns need to carry the point loads of the structure sitting on them continuously from top to bottom. Need to be single pieces of lumber not left over pieces cobbled together. You can see one post of three 2X members that only has one continuous piece top to bottom. The only time non-continuous pieces of lumber can be used is for furring out a column.

Those aren't laminated (as in glued) posts, they're built up 3-ply posts/columns and are acceptable to code, providing done correctly. There will be a code min. nailing pattern, nail spec. (or screws) and method for connection to the floor/foundation & structure on top of the posts. It's done all the time, everywhere.

Is there a permit or engineered design? Do you know how many members there should be per column and the max. spacing between columns to meet code?

I'd be looking at getting rid of the guy pdq. Not a good sign of things to come if only beginning framing...
 
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tdkkart

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As usual, 3/4 of the people commenting on this thread don't have a clue what they are looking at.

That said, for those of us that do know what's happening here. No, the gaps are not acceptable, and it looks to me like they're using the joint as a crutch to make up for sloppy installation of the stub posts.
 

finn

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I've seen many well constructed buildings with that construction method, so I think the concept is ok.

Execution isn't very good though.
 

ThomasP

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Stop construction now. Call the Building Inspector ASAP. You did get a building permit, didn't you?
 

readhead

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As stated before, this type of built-up post is common practice for this type of construction. The focus is the execution of the build-up. The joints should be tight and the nails should be called out for use in PT material.
 

rburke65

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No expert here, but the laminated posts that have seen, none of them had a gap as pictured. The treated 2x butts against the untreated pine. And I have seen both finger jointed and non fingered jointed laminated posts.
 
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finn

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No expert here, but the laminated posts that have seen, none of them had a gap as pictured. The treated 2x **** against the untreated pine. And I have seen both finger jointed and non fingered jointed laminated posts.

I think you are confused by the "laminated" terminology.

In the simplest sense, those three 2'X8" (or whatever), nailed together are in fact "laminated construction".

They are obviously not commercially produced "lam beams", made in a factory and glued together under pressure.

I don't think there is any commercial trademark on what a laminated construction member is. Laminated is more a definition or description of an assembly of several members secured together to replace a solid structural member (post).

This construction method and terminology has been in use longer then the glue-lam beams have been available.

It's a common method of post -frame construction. Gaps aren't good and I think most field-assembled posts I've seen are bolted, glued, and nailed.
 

speed bump

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A couple of questions:
Are the lams glued?
Are they prebuilt or site built?
Can you show us a picture of the nailing pattern?

Assuming they at least half assed glued them together your pole barn will likely blow away before you start breaking poles. If they didn't glue them, I agree with everyone else and the contractor is too stupid to build a dog house.
 

tab2

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This thread is finally going in the right direction. They are "laminated" by gluing and nailing them together. You can can also get beams (typically not posts) that are factory glued "glue-lams" around here. Those are usually bigger headers.

If these were secured to each other correctly and glued, it would be fine, but not with those gaps.
 

lakeroadster

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Ya'll put way too much faith in Building Inspectors...

Not all inspectors are goofballs. You'll know right off the bat if they are.

Never said they all were.

The point is don't expect a city / county inspector to bail you out of poor quality and workmanship. In the case we are discussing if the inspector doesn't know the specifications within the NDS for built-up columns, he won't know what is acceptable and what isn't.

Some Interesting links:

http://www.stepbystep.com/Nailing-Together-a-Built-Up-Lumber-Column-122827/

http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/letters/generic/L-F-SDWBLTUP15.pdf
 
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slickgt1

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WOW.

I built quite a few like that, but no, not really.

I really hope there is at least glue in there. I am pretty sure, and this is judging by the level of carpentry here, that there is also no glue.

2 nails, at the edge, with nothing else as far as fastening in sight, that is also a big no.

You know what happens when lumber dries, it shrinks, and moves, and does all sorts of funny ****. Those gaps will grow, the nails will bend, and everything attached to it will also move. Having gaps that large, is just prime area where the wood will actually want to bend. I really hope there is at least glue in there, and if there was, it is still a ****, without proper clamping, you really cannot get a strong joint.

Also, notice the first picture. See how the middle board doesn't have nails going through it at the bottom edge (maybe from the other side, but I have a feeling they built them out right to left). So that right board is technically holding the middle board, and the left board above gaps.
 
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