Land ISSUES - Lawyers advise

[Ggg]

NWOhioChevyGuy

For what it is worth you have inspired me to do all of my own research on a piece of property I want to buy. I have discovered some interesting issues that might have put me in a pickle down the road. So thanks for posting your story and I wish you the best.
Gregg

 

[mrpowderkeg]

I get to see lots of contracts and deal with lots of farmers and ranchers but I mainly deal with mineral rights, one thing is sure they don't like to give. As you know your pretty much screwed, and in my opinion the farmer is being an ***... You're already on his **** list, so after trying to play nice, now is time to be an ***. Have that 2 acres surveyed and marked exactly. Then take every piece of equipment, or vehicles you own and park them exactly on your side of the leased land during harvest season as close as you can get to the crop. Make it as difficult as you can for the farmer. The farmer with complain but you have no legal obligation to move anything as it isn't on the leased land. Then any damage to your equipment, cars etc... you can sue, he'll want to get all his crop off the land, and you're not preventing him from doing so, he'll be taking a risk trying to get close to your cars and equipment. He may become more stubborn but you are not going to be getting anything at this time without a fight.
I cannot believe how calm you've been over this. If it were me, I'd slowly be salting the land over a long period of time that it gets gradually harder to grow a economically productive crop. I have other ideas but I'll keep them to myself.

 

[zj96sc]

Just read this whole thread, what a quagmire.

Any progress?

I'd put in a 15' fence and plant a few rows of trees about 5' onto your side of line of what the lease says he can use. Just to make a point, and then once the trees flesh out you at least won't have to stare at his tilled and planted fields and think about how you got the (imo) raw deal for the next 21 years...

Break ground on your new shop as soon as this gets wrapped up. It'll give you a positive mental distraction.

 

[ebasista]

Have you contacted the entity that regulates insurance in MI? It would seem that the insurance company is not acting in good faith. Title Insurance is a regulated industry in MI

Contact
http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-10555_12902---,00.html

Typically calling the state regulators makes insurance companies move quickly if they are in the wrong......and this case is really really in the wrong.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

No further movement to date, My bonus should come by the end of January so I will be filing suit against the Title Company when that is received.

Have to pay those lawyers fees you know, to get anything done.

 

[dstryr]

Just out of curiosity because I didn't read every last post of the 29 pages, if the farmer owned the WHOLE piece of land(6.666) acres, would it make his tillable land a nice square? Where I am going with this is that if there are few buildings on the land then my bet is that the farmer's long term interest is to be a PITA for so long that the land is bought cheap and he will clear it and till it.

Could part of your claim with the title compay include lost revenue for the duration of the lease? If he paid $76.67/acre to rent the land, what are you missing out on if locally land is renting for $200/acre?

Lots of people are worried about the farmer being unhappy, but the farmer sure isn't worried about the OP being unhappy. NW, I hope you get this resolved to what is fair for YOU.

With the value of corn in the $3.50+ range he is making WAY more $$ than what he paid. That is why he is not interested in letting you out. So, for the argument of your loss, why can it not be equal to his gain, per year, for the duration of the lease?

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

The settlement number we sent to the Title Company included;

Value of 2 Acres (Current Market value of farm acreage in the township)
Loss Revenue from Rental (Now though Feb 2029 / Calculated off of current rental rates in area)
Survey & Stake of Property (Including Leased Parcel)

Which the Title Company did not even respond to, since I hired a lawyer I have heard nothing from them.

The property I own is a perfect rectangle, it was parceled off of the farm this way due to the buildings that were on the site when it was split up. Main house (house we live in) 1 car garage & pool area (existing) 1 car garage from Tenant house A (existing but needs a match) Tenant house A (gone) Tenant house B (gone) Milking barn (gone) 2-3 smaller barns (gone) Since then the farm buildings and tenant houses were removed which allowed for these couple of acres to be tillable.

Long and short of it the farmer will NOT get these two acres, if anything I will get a settlement and have to wait 20 years to get control my land back, when the lease expires.

FWIW: This post has been good therapy for me during this ordeal.

 

[sirswank]

so, to sum up

Farmer: holding his (and your) ground, figuratively and literally.
Title co: keeping mum until the lawyers have it out. have their surveyors been around?
You: taking the high road and seeing how much you can get in compensation for their error

aside from rediculous suggestions of sabotage or asshattery, we still would like to see an aerial photo (google maps?) of your plot, the farmers land, and the leased area, even if it's a rough approximation. the way you describe it, the leased area isn't a straight chunk off the back and doesn't make the working of the land any easier.

i have to agree that the terms of the lease and the arrangement of the leased area does not add up to anything logical. either the previous owners were seriously hard up for cash (they were not the ones who were foreclosed on, if i read correctly) or there was a good ole boy deal made.

things i wonder about: actual laws on the books about leases of this nature (agricultural, ect.)
past sale dates and lease dates, and how they coincide.
relationships between farmer and previous owners
value of your land beyond the profit from the crop and local bar "land-wang" i.e. mine is bigger than yours.

***** to hear, but hopefully you get a large settlement.

 

[jay50]

Have you contacted the entity that regulates insurance in MI? It would seem that the insurance company is not acting in good faith. Title Insurance is a regulated industry in MI

Contact
http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-10555_12902---,00.html

Typically calling the state regulators makes insurance companies move quickly if they are in the wrong......and this case is really really in the wrong.

Yes, that would have been my first option and has been suggested to the OP. Wonder if it has been done?

 

[Brad54]

The settlement number we sent to the Title Company included;

Value of 2 Acres (Current Market value of farm acreage in the township)
Loss Revenue from Rental (Now though Feb 2029 / Calculated off of current rental rates in area)
Survey & Stake of Property (Including Leased Parcel)

Which the Title Company did not even respond to, since I hired a lawyer I have heard nothing from them.

The property I own is a perfect rectangle, it was parceled off of the farm this way due to the buildings that were on the site when it was split up. Main house (house we live in) 1 car garage & pool area (existing) 1 car garage from Tenant house A (existing but needs a match) Tenant house A (gone) Tenant house B (gone) Milking barn (gone) 2-3 smaller barns (gone) Since then the farm buildings and tenant houses were removed which allowed for these couple of acres to be tillable.

Long and short of it the farmer will NOT get these two acres, if anything I will get a settlement and have to wait 20 years to get control my land back, when the lease expires.

FWIW: This post has been good therapy for me during this ordeal.

Except your land IS NOT FARM LAND. Your land is residential. You need to get the value of two acres of residential land, NOT two acres of farm land rental.
Also, land value is going to increase for the next 20 years... that means your property taxes are going to increase for the next 20 years. That means you need to title company to put money in an escrow account to cover the increase in taxes for the next 20 years, based on then-current taxes, NOT what it's worth today.
Now that you've hired a lawyer, go after the title company for all you can get--it's justified. But more importantly, aim high, and let either a judge bring down the actual settlement, or take a lower offer.
My opinion is that what you've proposed is not enough to cover the amount you're going to be out. And more importantly the title company isn't going to give you what you're asking for, nor will the judge--they'll counter your proposal with a lower offer.
If you start low with a "fair offer," you're going to walk away with something far below fair and just compensation. If you ask for something much higher, their counter will be closer to fair.

I still don't understand why you don't just break the lease with the farmer. He'll sue you, but what can happen? I can't see a judge giving him more than fair compensation for the crops he'd take off the land. And even if he does, at this point, providing that compensation is the Title Company's problem, not yours.

As you said, he could spread manure on his property next to your bedroom window, but I doubt he would. And if he did, there are things that would ensure he wouldn't do it again.

-Brad

 

[Tom2]

Yea..I would just use the land. Make the farmer go after the title company. Shouldn't be anything you have to deal with.
I hope you have a decent lawyer, because I doubt the title company will just hand over money easily.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

It's not like it will be developed by me the farmer or anyone else for that matter. It IS farmland, not like I live in a Suburban heighborhood.

Granted I would like to come out of this with as large of a settlement as possible, and since it looks like it will be going to court the values will be escallated due to that fact.

Sketch of property and how it is layed out below.



Also an arial view from TerraServer circa 1998 prior to buildings and tenant houses being removed. you can see the 80' strip across the back and the 180 x 235 rectangle on the south end, interupted by the barn that is no longer there so the 80 is across the entire property.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

OK, I spent the last hour scanning in documentation to file a claim with the Michigan Office of Financial & Insurance Regulation.

I guess it can not hurt me.....ducking for the next blow!

I need a beer.

 

[Brad54]

That farmer won't take compensation for future crops, on a parcel of land like THAT?!

I keep saying it... but I'd put fence posts up and let him take me to court. What you're offering him is fair, and in no way would affect him. He'd get paid for doing nothing. He's just swinging his **** and pushing you around. Break the lease! Then let the title company deal with it.

I also think you would be within your perfectly legal rights to have permanent survey markers put at the corners of your property---ALL of your property; including slap in the middle of his field there. It's fair, and it be just enough to make him break his "stride" while he's running his equipment because he'll have to go around it.

-Brad

 

[sirswank]

thanks for the pics... it definately seems a case where this guy knows he got a score and isn't going to let it go for anything.

i'm curious to knowif your neighbors on the right have leased that little bump out above and to the right of your land, unless that is also the farmer's land. have you researched the agricultural programs that are acreage dependant? i know you said the previous owners were the ones who would qualify, but it may be the case that the farmer gets a certain benefit for having less than a certain amount of land OWNED and by arranging all these small leases, he can make a profit on a larger crop. by all accounts this guy has put his own interests first, and you should do the same. that means getting your land back, not taking a settlement.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

The farm on the right side of the picture does have an irregular fence line with the farm behind our house. if the picture was bigger you would see a second run to the South "left" about 200 yards back from the one you can see.

The farm that our house / property was split off of is now one large approximately 200 acre field. In perspective the rectangle is 6.6667 acres, all that is tilled behind the house and South "left" to the ditch and North "right" to the neighbors / grassy area (their farm is in a govm't CRP set aside program).


To be honest I'm looking forward to either end; Settlement (of proper size will pay for my new garage and new shop) or My Land (so I can build the shop behind the house where it belongs)

If I get a settlement the shop (30 x 48) will be on South "left" end of property close to where the one tennant house is in the arial shot. If I get my land back it wil go directly behind the house / pool area. The Garage (28 x 32) will be attached on the back side of the house.

 

[GarageDreamer]

Not the farmers fault that the previous owner, their broker, your broker, and the title company did not make you aware of the lease. What did the paper the farmer showed you say? Is there any cash tied to the lease (100% sure there should be).

-Wardster

follow the money .. who's getting the $$ for the lease.

 

[Mike of the North]

In my opinion it looks like the previous owner wanted to screw over the bank and try to make the land unsellable, all it did is screw you and give the farmer a great deal for the next twenty years. if you want to see if the farmer is reality your friend is ask him if he will move the 100'X235' piece to the east end of your property then you can build you garage behind your house, if he says no then he was most likely good friends with the previous owners and still wants to screw with you or the bank.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Garage Dreamer: Lease was paid 100% upfront back in 1999 to the owner at the time which was 3 owners ago if you count the bank that forclosed on the property.

Mike: The farmer is not interested in settling in any way at this point. My lawyer and his lawyer threw around CRAZY hypothetical numbers back when we were trying to buy out the lease up to 6 figures. Still would not say lets Both go after the title company for a settlement.

 

[tdkkart]

I still haven't figured out where the mortgage company is in this, I would think they would be on your side also as they have been shorted by the title insurance folks also??They are holding the mortgage on an "unwhole" piece of property that was apparently mis-represented by both the seller(foreclosure bank), and the title insurance company.
If you ultimately end up taking a settlement that turns over the land to the farmer, or if for some reason you go into foreclosure, the mortgage company has a mortgage on a piece of property that is worth some amount less than they negotiated for.

I'm sure the mortgage company has a "bigger" lawyer, and possibly more pull in the system than you do??

I would also make sure it was well known to the local banks that this title insurance company doesn't cover their bases very well.

 

[Nugent1021]

I'd have to agree with Brad54 or Tom2. You've done the nice thing, tried to go about it in a civil manner. Can't you just have a contractor put up a fence around your property in one day (so it'll be done without interference)? Barb wire it if you have to, so it can't be ran over by a tractor. It's your property. You both have paid for it, but you own it. If it was foreclosed, doesn't that negate any of his claims (like bankruptcy or something)?

 

[ddawg16]

Does it say anywhere in the lease about access? Ok...so he has rights to that 2.2 acres......but does it have to be easy access?

Any reason you can't put a fence along the long side....and give him about a 20' opening to get his stuff in and out on the end?

 

[Question]

Maybe put a lock on the gate and tell him to give you a call and you will open it for him....

 

[lh4x4]

Do not lose sight of the fact that the seller did not make "full disclosure" You can go after the owner with 100% certainty that you will win.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Nugent: the way it was explained to me since the lease was in place (and is legal and filed at the county) before my purchase of the property it superseeds my title on the property and is binding for the length of the lease.

Unlike some states Michigan does not wipe the slate clean with a foreclosure.

I tried the route with the Mortgage company and they didn't want to give me the time to even discuss it. I was passed around and maybe I just didn't talk to the right person but it did not pan out. Might give it another swing, what can it hurt. I asked my lawyer about it and he said they propably wouldn't care enough to do anything anyways.

The language in the lease is very general, no conditions, no outs, just who what and when. Keeps it in the Farmers side of things from my lawyers view. Maybe I need to have the "break the lease" talk with the lawyer again. It wasn't something that he concidered the first time around, don't recall exactly why.

Maybe the complaint I filed yesterday with the OFIR (Office of Financial and Insurance Regulation) will yield something.

 

[Brad54]

The farmer (thru his lawyer) turned down SIX FIGURES to settle?!?!

At that point, I believe I'd have a range war on my hands.

Shop around until you find a lawyer that eats raw meat for breakfast and orphaned children for dinner.

-Brad

 

[ebasista]

Try posting this in the www.expertlaw.com forum usually pretty good advice. I'm betting on the insurance regulator on in MI helping out, even though I seriously doubt his lease is still valid.....The sheriff's sale on the foreclosure was final.

Look at all the renters getting kicked out by the banks when they are foreclosed on.....no different here. The paper the farmer has is most likely not worth the ink on it.

Its your land, pour a foundation and see what happens, the farmer can't do anything.

 

[SteveV]

I'm just curious what's the worse that could happen if you did break the lease and force a showdown in court? The worse I could foresee happen to you is the judge would ask you to take down the barrier, and allow the farmer access back to his land, and reinstate the lease. Big deal. You really have nothing to lose, you could still pursue your other course of action if this fails.

The far more likely outcome, if the judge had any common sense, would be the judge sees what a ridiculous arrangement this is, and formally breaks the lease, and orders you to return the amount the farmer paid for the lease, minus the amount of time he's already used the land. Problem solved, and you could easily get the title company to pay that amount, in addition to your legal fees.

This seems a much simpler course of action, and you would probably get a resolution much faster. You really just want your land back, not a cash settlement. If you're going after a cash settlement from the Title company, you'll be litigating this for years, haggling over the amount. That might be why your attorney doesn't want to go the easier route.

Leases are broken all the time for a variety of reasons. This is as good a reason as any. This farmer is not your buddy, and never will be, so don't let that mentality make you pull any punches.

I can't believe this lease is legal and valid. What's to stop all these people who are getting their home foreclosed from "leasing" their home with an upfront payment from their neighbor as their walking out the door. The next owner then has to honor that lease? Michigan must have some strange laws.

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

I'm just curious what's the worse that could happen if you did break the lease and force a showdown in court? The worse I could foresee happen to you is the judge would ask you to take down the barrier, and allow the farmer access back to his land, and reinstate the lease.

Depends on his state and local rules. He could have to pay ALL attorney fee's and penalties for unlawfully blocking use of properly leased land.

I wonder if the state insurance overseer, could direct him to a good attorney for a second opinion, before choosing who to use.

 

[Titus]

I'm just curious what's the worse that could happen if you did break the lease and force a showdown in court? ...

I am not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that his attempt to negotiate a buyout price with the farmer could be considered a concession that the lease was valid. Breaking it at this point would seem to me to border on criminal.

 

[Question]

Buy a cow..............

 

[Nugent1021]

You can shoot someone for being on your property if you feel threatened and this is your property. I'm not saying shoot the guy, I'm just pointing out the ludacrousness of the situation.

The lock on the gate thing makes sense, so he has to ask to go on the property. Does the lease dictate full access to the land at all times? A few mean dogs would help, too. I guess I'm going overboard.

 

[blkhonda1991]

I am not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that his attempt to negotiate a buyout price with the farmer could be considered a concession that the lease was valid. Breaking it at this point would seem to me to border on criminal.

I doubt that would be the case...if the lease is not legally valid doesnt matter what if anything was offered in any kind of negotiating it will just be thrown out

You can shoot someone for being on your property if you feel threatened and this is your property. I'm not saying shoot the guy, I'm just pointing out the ludacrousness of the situation.

The lock on the gate thing makes sense, so he has to ask to go on the property. Does the lease dictate full access to the land at all times? A few mean dogs would help, too. I guess I'm going overboard.

at some point in this thread he posted the lease...such a simply worded lease without any real terms to it that was definitley not drawn up by a lawyer which makes me wonder how it is still valid after many times of the land changing hands.

the fact that the farmer was even willing to turn down a heafty settlement many times the original lease price leads me to believe there is something else going on here that warrants some digging. Like someone else said at this point he is not your buddy and he shouldnt have been your buddy ever since he never diclose the lease to you at an earlier time

 

[chadincolo]

Please keep in mind that as far as I have heard, the farmer has a valid lease. He may be is being difficult, mean, vindictive, whatever, he has the right to the land, which unless the lease says differently, means all rights.

HE controls the land, hunting rights, farming rights, he is the controller of the land. I can't believe some of the illegal, stupid suggestions here. Imagine having to pay to fix a tractor that hit something that wasn't supposed to be there, and rental for a tractor to get the work done while the first is getting fixed?

I can see why NWOhioChevyGuy is not happy. I can't believe the neighbor wouldn't settle, got to be more to the story on his side. BUT, it is what it is, NWOhioChevyGuy is taking the high road, the title insurance company is at fault. They need to be the one under fire, while the neighbor is probably being unreasonable, he is completely within his rights AND within the law. I wouldn't want him as a neighbor, but I REALLY wouldn't want some of the people suggesting illegal and immoral activities on this board a a neighbor!

 

[UnionWelder]

All these negitive things have been brought up before in the post... Most of you are similar to me and would take a different more hostile action towards the farmer and your land. But things are different in big cities and NWohio is trying to do the right thing its just that no one else is as nice as him including the title company...

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Yeah it ***** to be a "good" guy these days, if you think I'm a good guy you should meet my wife. She is about 100 times calmer about this situation than I am.

I will post something on the legal board mentioned above.

How long after I file a claim should I wait on the gov. agency to respond?

And I agree a settlement from the Title company will be a long time coming if that is what has to happen.

 

[Shocker]

Hey NWohio. Nothing ***** about being the good guy. It is a problem, but it will get resolved in time. I wish you the best of luck. From a Akron transplant in WA State.

 

[JB740i]

You can shoot someone for being on your property if you feel threatened and this is your property. I'm not saying shoot the guy, I'm just pointing out the ludacrousness of the situation.

The lock on the gate thing makes sense, so he has to ask to go on the property. Does the lease dictate full access to the land at all times? A few mean dogs would help, too. I guess I'm going overboard.

Um, Nuge, that's true in Florida now, and Texas for sure, but not in every case. You're pretty close to Georgia, I don't want you blasting away at someone in another state and think you'll get away with it.

 

[jwhcars]

Just a strange thought...What or who is buried on that land?

 

[Nugent1021]

I live outside of town, so protecting your land is important (from STRANGERS). I made the gun comment to emphasize a point of how ridiculous it is that you can own land, and someone else is basically allowed complete control of it. I figured someone would come along and extract just a portion of that comment and criticize it. That said, civilized culture dictates that this isn't a situation where things escalate to that point. You know your neighbor and this is a disagreement - and I empathize with you that it's a horrible situation. If the law told the farmer to stop then he probably would. I think you're going about this in the correct way - legally - and you're keeping your sanity and the sanity of your wife as the most important factors. You can sleep at night knowing you've done the right thing in this situation.

The silly suggestions on this board are really just what people wish they could do in this situation, Clint Eastwood style, and a sign of support. I think everyone really hopes you get this figured out. Good luck, man, and I hope this works out good for you in the end. I may run this by my wife who is a land use attorney and see what she says. Florida law is different, so I'm pretty sure she's going to say that.