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Land ISSUES - Lawyers advise

Brad54

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...as is the fact the land went thru a residential foreclosure.

That's a very interesting point. Is the property in question zoned Residential or Agricultural?

You might be able to get the land back on zoning grounds! I can't set up a manufacturing business in my neighborhood, because it isn't zone for it. And if a guy signs a lease with me to manufacture something on my property, I would think that what we agree upon together doesn't amount to a hill of beans if its against the zoning regulations.

Find out if your six acres is zone residential or AG.

Al Capone went away for tax evasion, not killing, bootlegging and pimping. It wasn't ****, but they made the law work for them. You might be able to do the same.
-Brad
 
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must8657

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i think when people suggest putting up a fence and a gate (but giving the farmer the key) they are not denying the farmer the right to the lease. the land is still the ops and he has a right to restrict and protect access to it. the farmer still has use of the land.
jason
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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Who's willing to pay for 1974 feet of fence fore me? That is what it would take to fence in the land in question.

It might come to breaking the lease, but it would get ugly, if it can be solved in another way it will be done that way.

Not like I have the $20K for my shop burning a whole in my pocket right now anyways.
 

bop_pa

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Do yourself a free favor and write your Attorney General of your state. They will most likely have a website to make it easy. If not, send them a certified letter outlining your issue and what expectations you have. They will send all parties involved a request for review. This does not guarantee a settlement however, the AG's office generally expects a thorough complete review in 2 weeks or so. If not they will also follow up on your behalf. This option costs you nothing (buy your taxes) and you should utilize them. Your title company is going to jack around only until you continue to push. They may eventually do the right thing, but it will be the least costly to them. I would not be so quick as to take other legal options off the table when speaking to them. However, I would think if the farmer bought an easment from the owner in 1999 then that easement would have been included (or should have been) in each sale since them. Others are right, the real estate agents,brokers, title company are all responsible for disclosing this info, whether then knew of it or not. This is real estate 101. So contact your AG's office and get the ball rolling. I understand you dont want to get a lawyer involved, but at least the AG can help push the review faster for you. They are not their to settle it, but only get a fair honest timely review. Take that answer then act on it. (if it is a negative resolution, contact a real estate attorney and get after them, the longer you wait the worse it looks.) And if you are asked about knowing he was farming the property, just say you didn't know. Why incriminate yourself. Just say you were unclear as to the exact bondaries of your property without looking at a survey which you did not have handy. Also, in some of your emails, I noticed you referred to it as "their" land. Be careful how you phrase stuff. I know you did not mean "their" as they own it, but you want to make a point to always indicate they were on YOUR property without your consent from the moment you found out about this. Protect yourself at all times. Lawyers are tricky. Get one.
 

Striker

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I think he meant get a better one. Seriously, this seems pretty cut and dry to me. The nice guy approach didn't work so it's time to take it to the next level. Hire a better attorney, write the AG's office, write the state agency that governs title companies, and force the issue.

I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on television. However, to me that lease agreement is on VERY shaky legal ground. I'd definitely pursue breaking it if the above options don't pan out. Just remember in the end the title company will most likely be forced to pay your attorney bills. Supposedly they have to cover your legal costs if they screw up on the title search. Check your title policy. A judge will make sure an order is issued for them to pay you.
 

chaingang

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Cattle/horse wire comes in 300 + ft rolls and isn't really that expensive. Steel posts are are relatively cheap too. Check out the local farm co-op. Heck, you might even run into your friendly neighbor the farmer while your there. Tell him you got some fencing to do maybe he'll offer to auger the corner holes with his tractor for ya. I said corner holes not corn holin' which is what he has been doing to you.
 

HacksawsGarage

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Laziness yes but malpractice, I would disagree.

i cant speak for the bar in your state, but here in Ct, laziness is malpractice.
timing and detail is everything in cases like this, thats why we have lawyers.
they are liscensed to represent you in terms of legal matters, diligently, and to the best of their abilities. laziness doesnt compute.
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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Well, I got a call from my lawyer this morning. The title company has handed the case off to a different lawyer and he is atleast giving us some action.

They are going forward with a propert property survey and moving forward from there.

I suspect that they will try to settle for some pittance, and we will probably still go to court but atleast we are moving forward now.

I would guess that my filing a claim with the state regulator got them moving again. Thanks for who ever suggested it.
 

mad57

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Plain and simple SALT THE LAND he will not want to plant where stuff does not grow . its rude and crude but oh well like you said the nice guy approach didnt work.
 

tdkkart

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Plain and simple SALT THE LAND he will not want to plant where stuff does not grow . its rude and crude but oh well like you said the nice guy approach didnt work.


Again, I don't believe that the main issue is the loss of use of the land, more-so the issue being that the title insurance company did not discover and reveal the fact that a portion of the land was under lease. The original poster did not get what he had expected to and is looking for compensation for lost use and POSSIBLY the use of the additional land.
 

Brad54

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No, you can't salt the land. I've softened my view on that a whole lot too.
However, when they survey the land, you have to make sure that when they make an offer, they offer to compensate you for RESIDENTIAL acreage, NOT agricultural. A 6 acre home lot is a lot more valuable than 6 acres of tilled dirt.

And I still believe you need a new lawyer--one that will really sink his teeth into this thing.

-Brad
 

mad57

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No, you can't salt the land. I've softened my view on that a whole lot too.
However, when they survey the land, you have to make sure that when they make an offer, they offer to compensate you for RESIDENTIAL acreage, NOT agricultural. A 6 acre home lot is a lot more valuable than 6 acres of tilled dirt.

And I still believe you need a new lawyer--one that will really sink his teeth into this thing.

-Brad

i agree that professional help is needed , my salt the land comment was just for the fact that if the farmer is being a bit brassy then make it not worth his effort to fight this any further definitaly a professional is needed to clear up this mans problem, but one thing ive learned lawyers dont mind charging you for every hour if they can prolong it they will because theres money to be made, every phone call, faxes, copys ect add up fast, granted thats there job god bless them, but if the farmer cant do anything with unfertile soil whats his motovation to be there, take the fight out of him.:)
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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As stated through out the thread, my fight is with the title company and there insurance, not directly with the farmer. While he could make this alot easier it is not something he has to do, he is with in his rights with the lease to keep farming the land for the duration of the agreement.

Time will tell where we end up with this.
 

mad57

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As stated through out the thread, my fight is with the title company and there insurance, not directly with the farmer. While he could make this alot easier it is not something he has to do, he is with in his rights with the lease to keep farming the land for the duration of the agreement.

Time will tell where we end up with this.
well good luck with this , dont get too stressed with this it will work out sounds like somebody messed up and will fix it. i had a big problem with my local town for my new garage i just posted here, i had to battle the town over something i had all rights to build, in the end i paid the lawyer i hired about $17000 half of the cost of my pole barn:( only to go to superior court and get bounced back to land use board and in 15 minutes deceided in my favor. it was a stressful year for me heart palpitations, money problems , looking back it ***** i wished i could have just realized it would have work out. good luck chin up later mike.
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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Well the survey crew was here today that the Title Company sent out.

Good news: there is atleast movement.

Bad news: If I can not get the lease killed in this process, the acreage it covers is more, yes I said more, than the existing farmer has worked and planted.


So I guess I won't push the issue if it sticks, that he has to farm the exact lease parcel, as I would give up a significant part of my side yard that the kids play in.

Post more when I know more.
 

bookman51

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While that could be bad news if the farmer pushes it, it might be good news regarding your suit against the title company. The long term lease covers more than you could be expected to imagine from a visual inspection of the property when you looked at it. That is what the title company is there for; to protect you and they did not.

Wish you the best and keep calm (which I think you are doing).

Bookman
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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Recieved a copy of the Title companies response to the State yesterday, and they had two FALSE statements in it. I filed a rebuttal to their letter with the State via certified letter this afternoon to point out these facts.

First they stated:
"Over the next few months the Company communicated with the Insured, and their attorney XXXX, in an attempt to reach an agreement with the ***'s to buy-out the 2 acre lease and give title to the Keiser's as insured on the Policy."

This is a load of ****: This is what the email from the lawyer stated about that back in July:
“YOU, of course, can make your own approach to your neighbor and find out if he is even interested in being “bought out” by you. You cannot however approach the neighbor and negotiate this matter claiming to represent this Company or to negotiate on our behalf; the neighbor must know that it is YOU who is approaching him over “buying him out” and you are not to even mention this Company when you approach the neighbor on your own behalf.”

Then they stated:
"Later in July 2008, the Company, while continuing to investigate the claim, retained KEM-TEC Professional Engineers and Surveyors to complete a survey on of the property in question, and specifically to identify what part of the Insured's 6.669 acres tract was encumbered by the 2 acre lease. This survey was erroneously completed with only the 2 acre tract itself being surveyed."

At no point was a surveyor on the property prior to 2/11/09, since this claim was filed and brought to the attention of Fidelity.


I think I'm dealing with a bunch of Shiesters, what ever you do don't use Fidelity National Title to do any of your title work!
 
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Brad54

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You know, this whole post is a record of the way things were being handled as it was happening.

I have a friend being sued by someone, and the guy went online and did hundreds of posts about it all. He was slanderous in his posts, and it's coming to bite him hard in the ***, but his posts are an integral part of the time line, etc. It'd be worth printing off all these and giving them to your lawyer as a record of what has happened and when. It may not have all the "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed, but it'll give you a good starting point and will put them on the defensive.
I remember reading specifically that you were told to approach the farmer, and to not mention the insurance company was involved. In fact, without looking back, I'm reasonably sure I replied that it wasn't your job to save the title company from getting raked over the coals by the farmer, which is why I thought they were sending you. Plus you were having to take time to do it.

-Brad
 

ddawg16

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Brad is abosolutly right.

This thread is for the most part a legal document in that it evolved over the duration of the problem. Because the server is handled by someone not connected to you, the content is not subject to change. Hence, it would prove a very credible source of events and times.

In a nut shell....the title company has already made a very big mistake by making false statements regarding timelines....for the most part their credibility is shot.....not only have they screwed up by taking so long....they have gotten caught in a couple of lies......

You never know....maybe you can make enough money to buy the farmers land......wouldn't that be a nice turn of events.

But most importantly for you is the fact that you took the high road and resisted following some of mis-guided (though good intentions) advice. You have maintained your credibility which means that is this goes to trial, you look a lot better than the title company.

One last thing to the other guys who offered 'options' for solving the problem....I'm not flaming you....most of those options occured to to me as well...and I suspect I might have 'tired' some of them if I were in Ohio's shoes....I think the recent turn of events inllustrates the advantage of taking the high road....
 
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AffableCurmudgeon

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Dear NWOhioChevyGuy,

First as a fellow Ohioan and a GJ forum member, I am sorry to read about your ordeal. No one should have to deal with things like this when one buys a new home.

Secondly, as an attorney, I am glad that you have retained counsel. I am sure that you have spoken to your attorney about his familiarity and expertise with matters like yours. I am not sure how many attorneys there are in your local area and what areas of law they practice, but if I were in your circumstance, I would interview a few other attorneys and find one who has handled disputes arising out of land leases, contracts, zoning and land title issues. In other words, I would not settle for an attorney who practices probate and estate to handle a leasehold matter.

I can’t give you legal advice since I am not familiar with your case but I can offer a few things to consider:

1. I applaud you for “taking the high road” and wanting to maintain a civil and cordial relationship with your neighbor. You are a patient man. However, at some point you need to determine how badly you want the use of your two acres that are under lease to your neighbor. If you must have the use of that land, you need to explore your options regarding early termination of the lease. In the absence of an “out clause” or any early termination provisions in the lease agreement itself, this would probably involve going to court, demonstrating extenuating circumstances and having the court, in accordance with case law and Michigan statutes, determine the value of the remainder of the term of the lease. This would mean that you and your neighbor will not be having a beer at the local tavern or getting together socially. If the use of the land is important to you, you need to be very comfortable with the idea that you and your neighbor will not have a cordial relationship. If you do decide to pursue the idea of terminating the lease agreement, do make an informed decision. Do talk to your attorney about the estimating the cost of such an endeavor. I am sure that you being an intelligent person will compare the legal costs with the monetary loss that you would suffer if you cut you losses and sold your property now and found more accomodating neighbors.

2. If you decide that you do not want the use of the two acres, give some careful and long thought what you would want by way of a settlement from the party at fault, presumably the title company. You have to consider the money you spent on six acres which were warranted to be unencumbered by a lease; The loss you would suffer if you were to sell the property today with the knowledge of the lease; The property taxes you would pay over the remainder of the lease; The property insurance you would pay over the remainder of the lease; Time it took you to pursue the matter; The expenses, legal or otherwise, that you would not have incurred but for the title company’s negligence; etc.
Don’t take the first offer. Don’t float any numbers. Wait for their offer; counter with something that would cover all, and I mean all, of your expenses.

3. With the help of your counsel, consider other alternatives to explore. For instance: Can the property be rezoned; If the farming activity is happening close to your dwelling, is the use of farming equipment prohibiting your family from being able to enjoy the use of your home; Are there any nuisance or safety claims that can be made due to the use of heavy farm equipment, chemicals, pesticides etc. in your backyard; etc.

Again, this is a terrible ordeal. I wish you well. I will keep looking in the forum for updates.
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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Thanks all, I am expecting the Title company to dig in their heals when they get the copy of my rebuttal to their letter to the State Insurance board.
I know taking the high road will look good in all eyes, including the Judge, neighbor & others involved. That will help immensly when this does go to court. Which I don't see many other options with the way things have been going.
 

CalGeo

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One thing is obvious, the title company and their lawyers know nothing about this thread! I know it has been said time and time again, you are taking the best approach and I could not have done it as well as you have! I hope the court sees it the same way! Good luck.
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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Well persuant to the insurance policy: "liability should be measured by diminution in the value of the property caused by the defect in title as of the date of the discovery of the defect, measured by the use to which the property is then being devoted"

An independant appraiser will be doing this evaluation in the next two weeks.

FWIW: Here is the new survey of the property.


I'm ready for this to be settled, atleast now I know where ALL the corners are.
 

Striker

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Wow, that's a good chunk of land he has leased out. I still say you should at least see about getting the lease either voided or thrown out by a judge. I highly doubt it would stand up in court.
 

Jaguar Fan

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Well, worst case, you could grow a topiary to show your neighbor how you REALLY feel.

Neighbor.jpg


:)
 

GCalo

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You need to do a few things:

a) look at your purchase and sale contract to see if any easement or additional land use is mentioned.
b) you need to look at your deed to see if there any easements stated therein.
c) you need to know how long this has been going on (prior to your ownership)
d) you have to determine what the adverse possession statutes are in your state.

If I read your original statement the above is critical and you are going to need local legal counsel.

If in fact there is a valid lease you have options available to cover this.

Get local counsel.
 

wantedabiggergarage

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You need to do a few things:

a) look at your purchase and sale contract to see if any easement or additional land use is mentioned.
b) you need to look at your deed to see if there any easements stated therein.
c) you need to know how long this has been going on (prior to your ownership)
d) you have to determine what the adverse possession statutes are in your state.

If I read your original statement the above is critical and you are going to need local legal counsel.

If in fact there is a valid lease you have options available to cover this.

Get local counsel.


You should read the WHOLE thread!
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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GCalo:

Done did all that;
A) unfortunately yes there is a Valid Lease that was not disclosed at closing on the property.
B) Bought out of Forclosure and Fannie Mae has limited their liability on the sale through issuing a "Special Warranty Deed" however no lease &/or easements mentioned!
C) Lease was signed and issued February 1999 and is paid upfront for a 30 year term.
 

Titus

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GCalo:

Done did all that;
A) unfortunately yes there is a Valid Lease that was not disclosed at closing on the property.
B) Bought out of Forclosure and Fannie Mae has limited their liability on the sale through issuing a "Special Warranty Deed" however no lease &/or easements mentioned!
C) Lease was signed and issued February 1999 and is paid upfront for a 30 year term.

On the bright side, you have already lived out 1 of the 21 years remaining on this lease when the thread was started. :wtf:
 

Question

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Just a quick question.. did you have a lawyer representing you at the closing? What does he have to say about the mess he let you get into?
 

billspit

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That has been covered in the thread at an earlier date, and the answer is no.

I do have a lawyer now, who is guiding me through this mess.

I've been reading this from the start, but don't recall something.

What is your lawyer's opinion about lease not having an exit clause? I thought all leases should have it spelled out.
 

bigfredtn

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rinny_tin_tin

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One thing is obvious, the title company and their lawyers know nothing about this thread! I know it has been said time and time again, you are taking the best approach and I could not have done it as well as you have! I hope the court sees it the same way! Good luck.

I hope NWOhio....does not believe assertions re opposing side ignorance of this thread - and that he is taking proper precautions to guard against the dissemination of strategy, conflicting opinions, etc - as theoretically, all this is indeed discovorable. You should only your information/ with your lawyer and your wife.
 

bigfredtn

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How do you "re-use" seeds?

Coach

Coach,

You just simply save some of the seeds from the plants that you harvest. Saving seed is a common practice among farmers.

My Dad is still using some seeds that were given to him 50 years ago in his garden. Every year after he gathers his beans and peas, he makes sure to put enough back for next years gardens.
 

kbs2244

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On the "re-use" of seeds:
Virtually all hybrid corn and soybeans planted nowadays produce sterile grain.
It will not grow if saved and planted the next year.

But just to be sure, the seed co.s have you sign a contract when you buy the seed that says you will not try and do it.

They also have regional seed for different areas of the country.
Same kind of contract.
You face big legal bills if you buy Wisconsin seed and plant it in Iowa.

The seed co.s spend a lot of time and money to get everything balanced just right for a crop in an area.
They consider saving grain and planting it as seed the next year as theft.
After all, they are in the seed businesses.

Gardening seed is to small a market compared farm seed, so the sellers just depend on people being to lazy to save seed.
 
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Defender Chassis

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I also understand there also also issues with the different strains of seed getting mixed with more typical varieties that may be planted in close proximity and making it tough to determine whether seed was stolen or mother nature was just doing her thing.
 
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NWOhioChevyGuy

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Well, the farmer is a distributor for a seed company so that probably would not fly anyways. And yes all "engineered" seeds are pretty much sterile now a days, while you will find some that get left in the field will grow. Reusing modern seed is not something that will save the farmer money, as he will get a small amount of seeds that will germinate. And even if they do germinate, they will not produce good crops as the parent seed did.

I'm not looking to make enemies here, just looking for some justice and a "fair" deal.

The appraser was onsite last Thursday, so one more step towards some type of settlement.
 
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