Langmuir ArcFlat table disappointment - Review

[1980HD]

So I bought a Langmuir table (because I thought fixture tables would be a good idea) and have actually been pretty disappointed with it.



First off, the foot came bent…no big deal I can fix that myself.



But what really upset me was the twist in the table- their website says the table has a flatness of ±0.0075”, but I found mine to be at .054”...more than 7 times out of flatness. (I used feeler gauges down below)



I had put material on the table and it was uneven, so I bought a straight edge on Ebay and held it across the table, and from corner to corner on both sides. My old plate steel was flatter than this lol.



And yes, I leveled the table the best I could given how the foot was.


(these are the feeler gauges that fit in the gap of my straight edge against the table)

I can’t help but feel like this is my fault, like $700 was too good to be true? But then why is it advertised that way? Overall quite upset with my purchase, I want to be able to hold flat tolerances.

Hope this helps anybody else looking for fixture tables out there.

 

[manac]

Will they replace it?

 

[Steve_P]

That looks tiny and way too small to be that far out of flatness. What are the dimensions of the table top?

 

[PCustoms]

Link to the straight edge you bought?

 

[GeoBruin]

Your table is not within spec and should not have been sold, or else was somehow damaged in shipping. I have one that's well within the advertised spec and I find it to be a useful tool.

You should reach out to the manufacturer and discuss it with them. In fact, you should have done that before you created an account here just to post about it.

 

[neophyte]

So I bought a Langmuir table (because I thought fixture tables would be a good idea) and have actually been pretty disappointed with it.



First off, the foot came bent…no big deal I can fix that myself.



But what really upset me was the twist in the table- their website says the table has a flatness of ±0.0075”, but I found mine to be at .054”...more than 7 times out of flatness. (I used feeler gauges down below)



I had put material on the table and it was uneven, so I bought a straight edge on Ebay and held it across the table, and from corner to corner on both sides. My old plate steel was flatter than this lol.



And yes, I leveled the table the best I could given how the foot was.


(these are the feeler gauges that fit in the gap of my straight edge against the table)

I can’t help but feel like this is my fault, like $700 was too good to be true? But then why is it advertised that way? Overall quite upset with my purchase, I want to be able to hold flat tolerances.

Hope this helps anybody else looking for fixture tables out there.

“But what really upset me was the twist in the table- their website says the table has a flatness of ±0.0075”, but I found mine to be at .054”...more than 7 times out of flatness. (I used feeler gauges down below)”

Starrett straight edges have a specified Accuracy (in):± .0002" per foot.

While Starrett is an old established manufacturer,
with a eorld wide reputation,
and a high price to match,
I would find the flatness claims from Langmuir systems a bit doubtful, given how large the welding table is compared to a Starrett straight edge, especially given that the Langmuir tables are only a bit more than twice the cost of a Starrett 36” straight edge, and the tables are way larger.
A precision cast iron surface plate would for instance, have a higher guaranteed flatness, but would also cost more than 10x what Langmuir is charging.
Also, what were the specs on the straight edge you used to check the table ?

 

[Nortonscustom]

Those countersunk holes are where the legs bolt to the table. You can also see a threaded hole through one of the fixture holes. Perhaps try assembling the table correctly and rechecking. I'm also a bit suspect of the unknown white material in the upper left of the picture that's between the table and leg,

 

[paranoid56]

Those countersunk holes are where the legs bolt to the table. You can also see a threaded hole through one of the fixture holes. Perhaps try assembling the table correctly and rechecking. I'm also a bit suspect of the unknown white material in the upper left of the picture that's between the table and leg,

if you happened to look at his other pics you would see that he does have the legs installed correctly, in this pic doesn't seem to have the leg on. no idea on what white stuff, other then a light reflection.

this looks like the table was dropped.

 

[dr_clyde]

I’d be asking for a refund. That isn’t as advertised.

 

[gatewaysysop]

Ouch. For $700 I'd be pissed, to say the least. That thing needs to go back for a refund. Not sure I'd even take my chances on a replacement.

I don't get why people bag on the guy for signing up and sharing his experience. Would you rather not know that they ship out product like this? Only on GJ are you going to get backlash for providing a detailed review of a sub-par product. Way to welcome a new member to the fold I guess.

 

[PCustoms]

I don't get why people bag on the guy for signing up and sharing his experience.

1 post wonders with a negative review are also viewed with skepticism.

I asked what straight edge they used, as that looks like a pice of extrusion to me. Measuring something incorrectly with the wrong tools and then posting that it's **** is.....

 

[gatewaysysop]

1 post wonders with a negative review are also viewed with skepticism.

I asked what straight edge they used, as that looks like a pice of extrusion to me. Measuring something incorrectly with the wrong tools and then posting that it's **** is.....

Nothing wrong with skepticism. That said, we were all 1 post wonders at some point and I'm pretty sure the op never called anything "****", and even suggested it was maybe his own fault for expecting too much at this price. If he was bashing the entire brand and using that kind of language it would be another story.

 

[neophyte]

Ouch. For $700 I'd be pissed, to say the least. That thing needs to go back for a refund. Not sure I'd even take my chances on a replacement.

I don't get why people bag on the guy for signing up and sharing his experience. Would you rather not know that they ship out product like this? Only on GJ are you going to get backlash for providing a detailed review of a sub-par product. Way to welcome a new member to the fold I guess.

If that’s this table;

ArcFlat | Precision Machined Modular Cast Iron Weld Table

ArcFlat is a modular cast iron weld fixture table featuring 5 perpendicular machined flat surfaces and 336 fixture holes. Ship to your door. No assembly required.

www.langmuirsystems.com

It’s a 24”x36”x4” cast iron table.
The table tops supposedly weigh 145lbs.
This is supposed to keep metal “precisely flat” while you weld the metal pieces.

Have you ever looked up the dimensions and weight of a large bench vise?
Most are significantly smaller than this table, and weigh two to three times as much.

According to the OP, the table is out by .054”
The table is not out of flat by .5 of an inch, it’s out of flat by .054 of an inch, which is basically, 1/20 of an inch.
That is not much.
It should also be pointed out, that Langmuir sells a “precision leveling bolt kit” designed to keep the modular table tops “flat” in use, and legs with leveling feet.
Neither of these things should really be needed if the welding table tops are actually inherently going to remain flat.
I suspect Langmuir is way over promising as far as flatness precision gies at the price they are charging, which seems inexpensive for what you are supposedly getting.

 

[neophyte]

Here some specs from the Langmuir website.

 

[whateg01]

If that’s this table;

ArcFlat | Precision Machined Modular Cast Iron Weld Table

ArcFlat is a modular cast iron weld fixture table featuring 5 perpendicular machined flat surfaces and 336 fixture holes. Ship to your door. No assembly required.

www.langmuirsystems.com

It’s a 24”x36”x4” cast iron table.
The table tops supposedly weigh 145lbs.
This is supposed to keep metal “precisely flat” while you weld the metal pieces.

Have you ever looked up the dimensions and weight of a large bench vise?
Most are significantly smaller than this table, and weigh two to three times as much.

According to the OP, the table is out by .054”
The table is not out of flat by .5 of an inch, it’s out of flat by .054 of an inch, which is basically, 1/20 of an inch.
That is not much.
...

That depends on what you are using the table for. If you are assembling work that has to be in plane +/- less than 0.027", and it spans the table in that direction, it is a lot.

 

[neophyte]

That depends on what you are using the table for. If you are assembling work that has to be in plane +/- less than 0.027", and it spans the table in that direction, it is a lot.

If I were assembling work that needed to be that flat,
I would assemble the parts as close as possible,
And use shims and clamps to adjust the parts while measuring with a precise straight edge,
Then tack weld,
Check,
Adjust with a hammer or mallet.
Weld some more,
Check,
Adjust if necessary,
Etc.

I understand the need for accurate setups, but I wouldn’t rely on a 145lb table top to deliver no hassle precision for welding.

 

[PCustoms]

Here some specs from the Langmuir website.

Interesting, that pic claims each module should be flat to 0.015", other sections of the site claim half that.

I suspect a combination of "creative" specifications and measurement error by the OP.

 

[Steve_P]

We can speculate all we want, but if he doesn't update then it's pointless to post on this IMO...

If it's as bad as he says, then he needs a replacement. That's it.

 

[GeoBruin]

Video of some quick and dirty measurements of "flatness" on my ArcFlat table.

 

[tjansson]

It should also be pointed out, that Langmuir sells a “precision leveling bolt kit” designed to keep the modular table tops “flat” in use, and legs with leveling feet.
Neither of these things should really be needed if the welding table tops are actually inherently going to remain flat.
I suspect Langmuir is way over promising as far as flatness precision gies at the price they are charging, which seems inexpensive for what you are supposedly getting.

You are really misunderstanding the purpose of the bolts and legs feet. The bolt kit is to join 2 of the tops and make them coplanar. They are not for flattening one top. Adjustable feet are for leveling or stabilizing the table on an out of level or not flat floor.

Interesting, that pic claims each module should be flat to 0.015", other sections of the site claim half that.

I suspect a combination of "creative" specifications and measurement error by the OP.

0.015" is the total tolerance range. Their other specs say "+/- 0.0075", i.e. 0.015" total. +/- is not really the right way to spec flatness, but whatever, it works.

 

[LeeG]

OP really gets around. This same post is on the forums at Fireball Tools.

Lee

 

[PCustoms]

OP really gets around. This same post is on the forums at Fireball Tools.

Lee

Seems he's just spamming his review

 

[RTM]

OP really gets around. This same post is on the forums at Fireball Tools.

Lee

Seems he's just spamming his review

At least he came back Thursday after posting Wednesday. Maybe just to see how his trolling is going, catching any fish.

 

[PCustoms]

At least he came back Thursday after posting Wednesday. Maybe just to see how his trolling is going, catching any fish.

Almost be better if this thread just disappears....

 

[neophyte]

You are really misunderstanding the purpose of the bolts and legs feet. The bolt kit is to join 2 of the tops and make them coplanar. They are not for flattening one top. Adjustable feet are for leveling or stabilizing the table on an out of level or not flat floor.



0.015" is the total tolerance range. Their other specs say "+/- 0.0075", i.e. 0.015" total. +/- is not really the right way to spec flatness, but whatever, it works.

If you join multiple tops together, and the kegs do on’t all touch the floor, then the tops will likely bend either just from the weight of the tops, if not from whatever is placed on to the tops to be welded.

 

[GeoBruin]

If you join multiple tops together, and the kegs do on’t all touch the floor, then the tops will likely bend either just from the weight of the tops, if not from whatever is placed on to the tops to be welded.

Please read up on this before you keep speculating and perpetuating misinformation. Here is a link to the installation instructions for thr precision bolt kit. This is how these tables were designed and intended to be joined together to create larger tables. There are also lots of people on YouTube who have recorded the process of doing this and showing the results afterward.

Edit. Sorry, the link doesn't work, likely because it wants to auto download the PDF. So I've attached it.

 

[Hohn]

Your table is not within spec and should not have been sold, or else was somehow damaged in shipping. I have one that's well within the advertised spec and I find it to be a useful tool.

You should reach out to the manufacturer and discuss it with them. In fact, you should have done that before you created an account here just to post about it.

I doubt you can get cast iron (even ductile) to move that much in shipping.

Seems to me like residual stress in the casting coming out when it was milled.

Castings like these need to allowed to cool in the mold a lot longer. IF this was de-molded when still too hot, then the resulting residual stress is likely the source of the issue.
Regardless of cause, being THAT FAR out of spec should have been caught long before shipment.

OP, Know anyone with a good surface grinder that can clean it up for you?

 

[whateg01]

I doubt you can get cast iron (even ductile) to move that much in shipping.

Seems to me like residual stress in the casting coming out when it was milled.

Castings like these need to allowed to cool in the mold a lot longer. IF this was de-molded when still too hot, then the resulting residual stress is likely the source of the issue.
Regardless of cause, being THAT FAR out of spec should have been caught long before shipment.

OP, Know anyone with a good surface grinder that can clean it up for you?

I was thinking because of the size, finding a Blanchard grinder would be the best option aside from returning it and hoping for better.

Isn't that part of the reason that manufacturers let their castings age before machining them?

 

[neophyte]

Please read up on this before you keep speculating and perpetuating misinformation. Here is a link to the installation instructions for thr precision bolt kit. This is how these tables were designed and intended to be joined together to create larger tables. There are also lots of people on YouTube who have recorded the process of doing this and showing the results afterward.

Edit. Sorry, the link doesn't work, likely because it wants to auto download the PDF. So I've attached it.

I know how what the supposed purpose of the welding tables is.
I just find the optimism of the manufacturer as far as flatness and precision laughably optimistic.

The price is basically the same as a Festool MFT, but for a table cast from nodular cast iron,
with a spec’d flatness not much worse than a precision Starrett straight edge, but with dimensions far larger and wider.
In addition to the “guaranteed” flatness, the edges have to be fairly accurately machined, and all the holes accurately drilled (presumably).

Nodular cast iron may be a decent material for an item like this, but The cast iron would need to be cast fairly precisely,
Then the iron casting would need to be heat treated to relieve stresses and produce the proper structure within the material.
Then the precision machining and surface grinding would need to be carried out.

The total weight of these modular iron tops does not seem ultra heavy, at 145 lbs.
A similarly sized precision cast iron surface plate seems to spec out at around 525 lbs. or maybe 380 lbs.

Busch Precision Cast Iron Surface Plates

Offering a huge selection of industrial tool sales online. Find over 100,000 metalworking products, precision measuring tools, power tools & accessories.

www.penntoolco.com

Busch Ground Bench Plate 24" x 36" x 3" - 1552G

Offering a huge selection of industrial tool sales online. Find over 100,000 metalworking products, precision measuring tools, power tools & accessories.

www.penntoolco.com

The high precision model that weighs 500+lbs. is $8,000+
The less expensive, lighter weight “precision bench plate” is $3,480 and weighs 380lbs. and us basically made for similar purposes as the Langmuir top, but without the holes.
“Adaptable to numerous applications in layout,tooling/inspection work and wherever a convenient flat reference surface is required.”

Nodular Cast Iron is used because it is high strength, and lacks the brittleness of grey cast iron.
It can be bent and twisted, which is what nakes it useful.

I am not saying the Langmuir table top system is a bad idea, but I also doubt the flatness could be guaranteed Once you start clamping items to the tables, especially when joined together, and especially once you start adding heat, as well as expansion and contraction of parts from welding operations.

As far as the suggestions for surface grinding the top goes to “correct it”, that would screw up the supposed modular nature of the system if more tops were purchased.

As for why the top does not come out to spec, it could be warping of the casting due to improper heat treatment, either due to a foundry taking shortcuts, or Langmuir not understanding the nature of the cast iron.
It could be damage at some point in storage or shipping, although shipping damage would likely have been noticeable.
Or it could be a machining setup that is not really capable of the repeated accuracy needed for this size and type of item.

 

[tjansson]

The price is basically the same as a Festool MFT, but for a table cast from nodular cast iron,
with a spec’d flatness not much worse than a precision Starrett straight edge, but with dimensions far larger and wider.

Festool MFT is overpriced for a MDF table, don't you think?

Are you missing a decimal? The Starrett straight edge is +/- 0.0002" per ft. Over 3 ft that's +/- 0.0006". The Langmuir is +/- 0.0075 over 3 ft, i.e. 10x less flat than the Starrett straight edges.

 

[Steve_P]

The OP is gone, will probably never post again, but his thread will live on

 

[neophyte]

Festool MFT is overpriced for a MDF table, don't you think?

Are you missing a decimal? The Starrett straight edge is +/- 0.0002" per ft. Over 3 ft that's +/- 0.0006". The Langmuir is +/- 0.0075 over 3 ft, i.e. 10x less flat than the Starrett straight edges.

Yes, I think the MFT is overpriced.
It used to be $300-$400.
You would really need the 48” straight edge to check flatness on the Langmuir tables, so .0008” alleged maximum deviance for the Starrett. (Yes I dropped the decimal).
I still think the flatness claims Langmuir is making are exceptionally high for what they are charging.
For maximum accuracy, I really think a slightly flexible top, with up raising and lowering screws in a grid system would really be needed for the type of accuracy Langmuir is promising, and users seem to expect.

 

[1980HD]

This is the straight edge I bought & used.

Because I'm using this table to check my parts too, I can't use it when its this far out of flat- so I'm returning it. Won't risk getting another faulty table.

I posted this review around and some suggested the small fireball table so I'm investing a little more and hoping that will end up better.

Thanks for your help everyone!

 

[1980HD]

Following up...I returned the Langmuir just in time...saw this guy had a similar experience...

Dragon wagon here I come!

 

[FL Guy]

Video of some quick and dirty measurements of "flatness" on my ArcFlat table.

Is the bowl depth in the middle of the table still within spec?

 

[GeoBruin]

Is the bowl depth in the middle of the table still within spec?

It seems the specified flatness is + or - .0075". I interpret that to mean no more than seven and a half thousandths higher or lower than some imagined, perfectly flat plane, which could theoretically mean that no two points on the table should vary by more than 15 thousandths total.

The apparent "bowl" in the middle of my table is likely a result of a relative low spot in the middle, but also of being relatively high at the corners compared to that ideal plane. In any case, it appears the maximum variation I can find on my table is about 5 thousandths total, which seems to be well within spec.

 

[Reata210]

I have used the same table for couple years now. I find it to be an excellent table and great value for a cast iron table. Mine is dead flat on all sides and top. It is nice that it is modular and multiple tables can be tied together. Many shops use these in professional settings because of their accuracy, versatility and strength. One in particular is Lift Arc Studios. Reviews are excellent on this table and honestly this is the first bad review I have ever read. For a CNC machined cast iron table for 700 bucks it is hard to beat. Langmuir is a good company and I’m sure they would swap it out.