Lathe suggestions
- Thread starter Doc1976
- Start date
Yeah and I guess the reality is I'm looking for a tool that is 60 plus years old. I'm just hoping to find the guy who bought it thinking they would use it and didn't, and 40 years later just wants it out of the way. Patience has never been a strength of mine, but I will have to be. I've now got several brands that the guys in the know use so I will have a better idea of what to look for.
Aaron_W
Well-known member
I wouldn't overlook the Taiwan made lathes from the 80s and early 90s. Jet, Enco etc as well as many with Asian names like Shen Wai, these can be very good quality but often sell at a good price because "Chinese ****".
My shop is mostly filled with vintage USA so understand the desire for old US iron simply for being old US iron, but if you just want a good affordable lathe, some of the early imports were very competitive in quality and are often undervalued.
Emco (M not N) are Austrian made and very high quality, but parts are hard to find, and prices are usually quite high.
My shop is mostly filled with vintage USA so understand the desire for old US iron simply for being old US iron, but if you just want a good affordable lathe, some of the early imports were very competitive in quality and are often undervalued.
Emco (M not N) are Austrian made and very high quality, but parts are hard to find, and prices are usually quite high.
DocsMachine
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-The problem is that not everyone wants to spend several thousand dollars on what may well be little more than a toy.
I mean, I'm sure there's several here in this thread that make a living, one way or another, with machine tools, or have a serious enough hobby that having one is worthwhile. But on the other hand, I also know of plenty of people that have a small or cheap mill or lathe, which might only get used once or twice a year.
If somebody just wants to make a few bushings for their motorcycle or a custom gearshift knob or two, telling them they should buy a $2,500 lathe, to say nothing of a $5,000 one, might be just a bit silly.
It's a balance, with a lot of luck involved, to find a machine "worth the effort", but at less than the cost of a good used car.
-Generally speaking, they tend to have mediocre quality spindle bearings, a sloppy fit to the leadscrews, an iffy fit between the saddle and the ways, no way wipers, and a bunch of the accessories, including many of the gears, are die-cast pot-metal.
If you find a decent example (keeping in mind Atlases are more than fifty years old, and could have a LOT of miles on them) and take the time to "tune it up", including several of the tricks and tips detailed in various places online (some of which, ironically, require the use of a better lathe
) they can do some pretty good work.It all depends on what you want to do. The Atlas can do most of what you ask of it, it'll just take longer thanks to a slow spindle speed and low power which requires light cuts. You'll also have to be diligent in getting your dimensions right- the looser/sloppier the machine, the harder it is to make accurate parts.
-Not at all! Everyone here started at the bottom rung. My first lathe was a Grizzly 9x20. I bought it new because there simply weren't any to be had used, locally, for almost any price.
Like your driving example, however, you will of course still run into the "Tool Snob". The guy that either through luck or a thick wallet or both, has some top-flight machines, and "looks down" on anyone who has what he considers a lesser machine. We see that everywhere- cars, trucks, guns, shops, computers, ad nauseum.
Don't let them bug you. Every single one of them started out going "what's this handle do?" And every single one of them could, if you forced them, relate a story where they made some stupid blunder- grabbed the wrong lever, mismeasured something, forgot that this particular machine read direct instead of diameter, whatever- and ruined a part that they'd invested a great deal of time or money into.
Speaking personally, while I'm a machine enthusiast- I love working on and fixing the machines themselves- I'd rather see a guy use the hell out of an Atlas, than own a repainted-and-polished 10EE he never uses.
Doc.
tdkkart
Well-known member
Don't discount the clunker. I had a friend offer me what was only part of a 12" Atlas, I pieced it together with parts from here and there(pre-ebay), and ran the piss out of it for many years. I learned a lot, made some money with it, and actually have my current job because that lathe started my metalworking journey. I eventually found a deal on a 5914 Clausing and sold the Atlas to a fellow that was thrilled to have his first lathe.
So is it fair to say that although the atlas is not the same quality, accuracy and rigidity of a Clausen, hardinge or Sheldon that an atlas in good condition is still a noticeable improvement over the harbor freight? I'm only asking because I'm trying to get a realistic mental list in order of quality and performance so I can make the best decision for my needs and expectations.
tdkkart
Well-known member
Even an Atlas is better than no lathe at all.
I used my Atlas for blueprinting 2 cycle racing engines that won races all over the country, so it was capable of good work. Once you learn how to get good parts off an Atlas your first go on a Monarch will be incredible.
Harbor Freight? I don't know, never operated one, and not even sure they still sell the big ones. One of the 12 or 13" HF or Grizzly lathes would for sure be easier to make good parts simply due to the amount of iron in them. I could easily change the surface finish of parts running on my Atlas by leaning on the headstock or cross slide, can't do that on my 12" Clausing.
If you're intending to make mostly aluminum parts for home projects, a good running Atlas will suffice just fine while you search out one of the better ones.
Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
Instead of clarity, I'll add more confusion, sorry.
From a hard lesson on my mill, a fresh import is much better than a clapped out old iron. I call my mill the Drama Queen. It had been used as a production CNC. I will over time get her as good as new, but I might have to learn to scrap the ways. Scary
Not all Chinese lathes are the same quality. There is a huge difference between Precision Matthews and Harbor Fright. My son and I went together and bought a 250mmx550mm (10x22) . A local tool store had imported a few and then cleared them out at the end of their year. It was cheaper than any used South Bend I had seen on CL. After the purchase I researched it. I found out this model of lathe was a copy of 8" Austrian one, only much better quality . In China there were two companies making the clone, SEIG and XIMA . The SEIG ones are the ones Grizzly and others sell. Lathes are assembled then the parts are hand fitted . Thus the expense .The SEIG ones were only assembled. The XIMA that we bought was sold stripped down to make it a competitive price .
Avoid the soft iron ways of the old iron, they are too much bother trying to work around. Get a lathe with hardened ways.
You will want slow speed about 60 rpm for threading. That's what the back gears are for.
You want a gear box, not change gears for threading.
Small lathes , even my son's 10x22 and ones like the SB 9" use the threading lead screw for power, which means the engagement blocks will be worn. So look for two rods on the front. The third one is for on/off.
There is a saying, pity the poor shop with out a welder and a lathe.
From a hard lesson on my mill, a fresh import is much better than a clapped out old iron. I call my mill the Drama Queen. It had been used as a production CNC. I will over time get her as good as new, but I might have to learn to scrap the ways. Scary
Not all Chinese lathes are the same quality. There is a huge difference between Precision Matthews and Harbor Fright. My son and I went together and bought a 250mmx550mm (10x22) . A local tool store had imported a few and then cleared them out at the end of their year. It was cheaper than any used South Bend I had seen on CL. After the purchase I researched it. I found out this model of lathe was a copy of 8" Austrian one, only much better quality . In China there were two companies making the clone, SEIG and XIMA . The SEIG ones are the ones Grizzly and others sell. Lathes are assembled then the parts are hand fitted . Thus the expense .The SEIG ones were only assembled. The XIMA that we bought was sold stripped down to make it a competitive price .
Avoid the soft iron ways of the old iron, they are too much bother trying to work around. Get a lathe with hardened ways.
You will want slow speed about 60 rpm for threading. That's what the back gears are for.
You want a gear box, not change gears for threading.
Small lathes , even my son's 10x22 and ones like the SB 9" use the threading lead screw for power, which means the engagement blocks will be worn. So look for two rods on the front. The third one is for on/off.
There is a saying, pity the poor shop with out a welder and a lathe.
Good info here, thanks.
-The problem is that not everyone wants to spend several thousand dollars on what may well be little more than a toy.
I mean, I'm sure there's several here in this thread that make a living, one way or another, with machine tools, or have a serious enough hobby that having one is worthwhile. But on the other hand, I also know of plenty of people that have a small or cheap mill or lathe, which might only get used once or twice a year.
If somebody just wants to make a few bushings for their motorcycle or a custom gearshift knob or two, telling them they should buy a $2,500 lathe, to say nothing of a $5,000 one, might be just a bit silly.
It's a balance, with a lot of luck involved, to find a machine "worth the effort", but at less than the cost of a good used car.
-Generally speaking, they tend to have mediocre quality spindle bearings, a sloppy fit to the leadscrews, an iffy fit between the saddle and the ways, no way wipers, and a bunch of the accessories, including many of the gears, are die-cast pot-metal.
If you find a decent example (keeping in mind Atlases are more than fifty years old, and could have a LOT of miles on them) and take the time to "tune it up", including several of the tricks and tips detailed in various places online (some of which, ironically, require the use of a better lathe
It all depends on what you want to do. The Atlas can do most of what you ask of it, it'll just take longer thanks to a slow spindle speed and low power which requires light cuts. You'll also have to be diligent in getting your dimensions right- the looser/sloppier the machine, the harder it is to make accurate parts.
-Not at all! Everyone here started at the bottom rung. My first lathe was a Grizzly 9x20. I bought it new because there simply weren't any to be had used, locally, for almost any price.
Like your driving example, however, you will of course still run into the "Tool Snob". The guy that either through luck or a thick wallet or both, has some top-flight machines, and "looks down" on anyone who has what he considers a lesser machine. We see that everywhere- cars, trucks, guns, shops, computers, ad nauseum.
Don't let them bug you. Every single one of them started out going "what's this handle do?" And every single one of them could, if you forced them, relate a story where they made some stupid blunder- grabbed the wrong lever, mismeasured something, forgot that this particular machine read direct instead of diameter, whatever- and ruined a part that they'd invested a great deal of time or money into.
Speaking personally, while I'm a machine enthusiast- I love working on and fixing the machines themselves- I'd rather see a guy use the hell out of an Atlas, than own a repainted-and-polished 10EE he never uses.
Doc.
Problem I have is even with a $10,000 budget I'd be hard pressed to find any worth while used machine here
DocsMachine
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-"Here" being the operative word.
If you're willing to pay for it, and it can be done for a lot less than $10K, there's a ton of machinery dealers out there that can get you set up with something.
For example, I'd been wanting a Hardinge HSL, a small "second operation" lathe, to go with my turret lathes and CNC. Such things simply don't exist up here- I know of two Hardinge lathes, period, in the entire state.
Over on my own board, one of my regulars- may a curse be upon his name
- pointed me toward a dealer in Ohio called HGR. They had three of them, all for well under the typical eBay asking prices. After juggling a few numbers and making a few calls, I pulled the trigger.The lathe cost me about $900, shipping from Ohio to Washington was about the same, and from Washington to my doorstep was a bit over $300.
Not cheap, but the total cost was, as I said, still well less than the typical eBay asking price.
Currently, HGR has, for example, this 14" Southbend for under $1,400, and this Pratt & Whitney Model B for under $1,200.
Even if shipping costs you a grand, you could still have either one of those for under $2,500.
Doc.
-"Here" being the operative word.
If you're willing to pay for it, and it can be done for a lot less than $10K, there's a ton of machinery dealers out there that can get you set up with something.
For example, I'd been wanting a Hardinge HSL, a small "second operation" lathe, to go with my turret lathes and CNC. Such things simply don't exist up here- I know of two Hardinge lathes, period, in the entire state.
Over on my own board, one of my regulars- may a curse be upon his name
The lathe cost me about $900, shipping from Ohio to Washington was about the same, and from Washington to my doorstep was a bit over $300.
Not cheap, but the total cost was, as I said, still well less than the typical eBay asking price.
Currently, HGR has, for example, this 14" Southbend for under $1,400, and this Pratt & Whitney Model B for under $1,200.
Even if shipping costs you a grand, you could still have either one of those for under $2,500.
Doc.
Getting it over the border into Canada is the challenge...the market in this entire country is next to nothing. I can find big lathes but 10x22's or 12x36 or even 14x40's are few and far between and most are clapped out junk for twice the price the mint one in the states would go for.
DocsMachine
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-Certainly moreso than driving across town to pick it up, but not an insurmountable challenge.
Most of the machinery dealers will have a number of regularly-used trucking companies they deal with, and it's all but certain that some or all of them are used to hauling into Canada. There's a little extra paperwork, certainly, but it's actually better the machine comes from a dealer rather than a private sale- Customs prefers the "official" paperwork.
Not saying it's the best option, and definitely isn't the cheapest, but if, locally, an Atlas is going for $1,500, then being able to get a much better lathe for only about a thousand more is kind of a deal.
Doc.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
1500 for an Atlas is rich imo...
Those P&W's are sweet, but if there's anything wonky with the bearings, you are sol. With a machine that old what are the odds?
Those P&W's are sweet, but if there's anything wonky with the bearings, you are sol. With a machine that old what are the odds?
Go ahead and buy the Atlas. It will get you started and you will learn a lot, acquire the tooling to support a lathe. You will soon know its weaknesses and what you need to have in your next lathe. In the mean time you will start to find better and more capable lathes. As an amature I started with a 6" craftsman and soon learned a lot. Kept buying and selling lathes as I could and now I think that I have numbers six and seven in the shop and they have served me well for many years now.
You can bank on that Atlas being worth what you paid for it when you outgrow it. I've also bought machine tools just to get the tooling that comes with them and then sell off the machine tool minus the tooling, often getting the tooling for free. You can wheel and deal machine tools just as you do with scooters.
lg
no neat sig line
You can bank on that Atlas being worth what you paid for it when you outgrow it. I've also bought machine tools just to get the tooling that comes with them and then sell off the machine tool minus the tooling, often getting the tooling for free. You can wheel and deal machine tools just as you do with scooters.
lg
no neat sig line
I run a home built rotary phase converter for my Enco 14-40 and my Bridgeport - no the phases aren't balanced. No it doesn't have pony start motor its pull string. But it works and it was inexpensive.
Old Iron is great if you can get it - i think in AZ you are not going to find a lot of big old stuff - most of that stuff is located near old Industrial areas (think Chicago, Michigan, New England/ Mid Atlantic- I would also check on your local technical school public auctions. Two 13 inch lathes, made in brazil, but sold by Southbend? just sold for a few grand each. Looked practially new. Public Surplus Auction or something like that is what CT uses to sell its stuff.
my 1 cent.
Old Iron is great if you can get it - i think in AZ you are not going to find a lot of big old stuff - most of that stuff is located near old Industrial areas (think Chicago, Michigan, New England/ Mid Atlantic- I would also check on your local technical school public auctions. Two 13 inch lathes, made in brazil, but sold by Southbend? just sold for a few grand each. Looked practially new. Public Surplus Auction or something like that is what CT uses to sell its stuff.
my 1 cent.
Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
A great resource is UK Lathes website. That way when you hear of some unknown machine, you can research it. You may find gem like one of the earlier poster related. Lucky guy !!
Bearing shouldn't be a problem, the manufacturer bought them from a bearing supplier, so you can,too. Even the odd ball ones will be on some shelf some where. Good suppliers can access them.
Don't be fixated on names. When I was looking for a lathe after my son moved out with shared lathe, I found a Craftsman (Atlas) for 2000 USD and a no-name Taiwanese generic for 1900 Canadian. No only was the Taiwanese one 30% cheaper, it was also 3x the lathe. It was still more than I was willing to pay.
The Grizzly catalogue or on line will tell you the optional and the included equipment for the models. This will give you an idea of what should be with the lathe. They are also good for parts for the older Taiwanese lathes and the accessories which could fit your lathe. Before the border closed, I spent time in Grizzly's showroom with a tape in hand.
Tooling is an added expense. But tooling for a lathe is peanuts compared to a mill .You will need micrometers and a caliper. To set up you need a machinist's level as well.
Bearing shouldn't be a problem, the manufacturer bought them from a bearing supplier, so you can,too. Even the odd ball ones will be on some shelf some where. Good suppliers can access them.
Don't be fixated on names. When I was looking for a lathe after my son moved out with shared lathe, I found a Craftsman (Atlas) for 2000 USD and a no-name Taiwanese generic for 1900 Canadian. No only was the Taiwanese one 30% cheaper, it was also 3x the lathe. It was still more than I was willing to pay.
The Grizzly catalogue or on line will tell you the optional and the included equipment for the models. This will give you an idea of what should be with the lathe. They are also good for parts for the older Taiwanese lathes and the accessories which could fit your lathe. Before the border closed, I spent time in Grizzly's showroom with a tape in hand.
Tooling is an added expense. But tooling for a lathe is peanuts compared to a mill .You will need micrometers and a caliper. To set up you need a machinist's level as well.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
That bearing advice does not apply to P&W lathes of a certain vintage. Also of note, depending on the lathe, you very well could spend more on bearings than the machine.
I agree with this. Logan lathes used a special New Departure bearing that is NLA. A lot of old equipment used specialized bearings that New Departure supplied and no interchange is available.
Aaron_W
Well-known member
The Atlas and Atlas made Craftsman lathes are quite popular despite the detractors They were about 1/2 the price of a 10" Southbend or Logan so you get what you pay for but in decent shape they are more than adequate for many hobbyists. Downsides are Sears stopped selling the 12" lathe about 1980 so the newest one will be about 40 years old, and the oldest of the later improved version (late 1950s) are pushing 63, the oldest go back to the mid 1930s making them 80+. On the plus side many had a relatively soft life as a hobby lathe since that was their target market.
Like many things Sears there is a collector aspect which often see the Craftsman lathes priced similar to better quality vintage lathes.
If you can find a fair price for a decent quality Atlas / Craftsman lathe, I wouldn't turn my nose up at it if you are in a machinery desert.
As far as better than Harbor Freight? Which one the 7x10 or 7x12, yes but HF used to sell some bigger lathes at least up to 12x36 lathes which could be equal if not better. The Atlas / Craftsman lathes are a basic design that goes back to the 1930s, a Chinese lathe made in the 1980s will have some advantage simply because of the technology improvements over 50 years.
Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
I guess I was wrong about bearings in old lathes. New Departure, eh.
The larger lathes use expensive high precision bearings, but the smaller lathes like my 12x24 use common off the shelf bearings. When I changed the belt, I also changed the bearings, they were just Timkens . I didn't need to , but once apart, what the heck. It was a pain to change the belt. I would expect other post war engine lathes to use off the shelf bearings, too. I did use real Timkens, though.
Lathes can be roughly classified by weight and mounting. Mine is 1000# class bench top. It was marketed to the small repair shop. But like any bench top machine tool, it's also a hobbyist tool.
The 500# class is more of a home shop tool.
Current 12" lathes from Grizzly use gearheads, older ones like mine use belts and gears. Changing gears is more convenient than flipping a belt on pulleys. The belt drives can be smoother running.
The larger lathes use expensive high precision bearings, but the smaller lathes like my 12x24 use common off the shelf bearings. When I changed the belt, I also changed the bearings, they were just Timkens . I didn't need to , but once apart, what the heck. It was a pain to change the belt. I would expect other post war engine lathes to use off the shelf bearings, too. I did use real Timkens, though.
Lathes can be roughly classified by weight and mounting. Mine is 1000# class bench top. It was marketed to the small repair shop. But like any bench top machine tool, it's also a hobbyist tool.
The 500# class is more of a home shop tool.
Current 12" lathes from Grizzly use gearheads, older ones like mine use belts and gears. Changing gears is more convenient than flipping a belt on pulleys. The belt drives can be smoother running.
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I want to say thanks again for all the help suggestions and guidance. I now have a much better idea of what to look for and what to avoid. I'm not 100% on usa made but would prefer it, but an older import may do for the right price. I think that I will pack a little more $$ away as I shop. I do see logan quite often, so I'll keep working with what I've got and eventually as my fund for a new lathe grows so will my chances of finding one.