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Lathe tooling without breaking the bank?

Strouty

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I just got my lathe going yesterday and I need to get some tooling for it. I am a total newbie to this, so you may have to describe things with pictures and diagrams....... ;)

I have an Aloris BXA post, but no tool holders.

I have a live center, MT3.

I have a 3 jaw chuck, but no key. :mad:

I have a bunch of things that I don't know what they are, but I am sure they will be useful.

I am seeing sets of tool holders that are knock offs, are they any good? I see there are brazed carbides and then indexable ones that can be replaced, is one preferred over the other, or is it job dependent?

I will be making my own pieces and parts out of everything from plastic to stainless, but I am going to start with the plastic as a way to learn a few things about the machine.
 
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The Cobbler

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I found some stuff on ebay relatively inexpensive. the knock off tool holders are fine for amateur use IMO . probably even fine for production work .
I ave a 4 jaw tat didn't come with a key , I will make one someday, but for now I use an allen key.
post pics of what you ave, I'm sure folks on here can identify it
 

scooternut

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Hobbyist myself, just a bit further along the learning curve than you.

Knock off tool holders are fine. Do not buy brazed carbide unless you have a way to hone them.

Buy high speed steel tool bits, learn how to do the basic 3 grind tool. Then just practice.

Tons of old usa hss available on cl and at flea markets


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Craptain

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Dare I say it, but I use about 50% Chinese tooling. Toolpost and toolholders came from Shars. Pretty good for import. For actual cutting tools, get hss, as mentioned above, for most of your needs. Carbide inserts and/or brazed carbide tools are more or less only for harder materials that you haven't yet graduated to.
You can make a chuck key as quickly as trying to buy one. It doesn't have to be as nice looking as store bought.

YouTube is your new best friend. ThatLazyMachinist is great for beginners and you will learn good habits. Tubalcain is also pretty good. Plenty of others, so find someone that suits your temperament.

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pepi

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Aloris BXA is No knock off it's one of the best, Op you do not need to buy the Aloris BXA tool blocks. You can get tool blocks that will fit the BXA many places, like
https://littlemachineshop.com/
just an example,

Nothing wrong with brazed carbide, they get dull toss em out they are cheap and good to get your feet wet.

These are turning tools: they hold the carbide inserts, you can see they are 3/8, 1/2 the 1/2 being stouter and therefore flex less
littlemachineshop.com/products/product_category.php?category=1208242246

Buying turning tools and carbide inserts you want to stay with the most common insert profile ......example CCMT inserts

4 tool blocks, 3 turning tools, facing, profiling (threads), chamfer, boring bar.

1 special tool block for a parting tool.

That will get you started, the tool blocks will mount, both brazed carbide and carbide insert turning tools.

Having the Aloris BXA I would think you could have some of the items mentioned above.

more sources
https://www.shars.com

lighttoolsupply.com/catalog/Product/Aloris-Tool-Post-Sets?productID=343488

^^^ ^see what you have in the way of a QCTP ^^^^^ have the AXA myself

http://www.americancarbidetool.com/brazed-tools/


Greg
Enjoy the lathe... a great addition to a garage
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QUOTE=scooternut;7171516]Hobbyist myself, just a bit further along the learning curve than you.

Knock off tool holders are fine. Do not buy brazed carbide unless you have a way to hone them.

Buy high speed steel tool bits, learn how to do the basic 3 grind tool. Then just practice.

Tons of old usa hss available on cl and at flea markets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
 

ez-duzit

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Avoid the knockoff Asian toolholders. Here is a cockeyed one from Phase II I was unfortunate enough to purchase. The rest of mine are from Aloris and Dorian. Some were purchased new and some used.

 

Nelson58

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Ebay has used Aloris toolholders you may want to try. +1 on Shars holders- many people have had success with them.

Tubal Cain (Lyle Peterson) has a lathe series of his videos you can get for around $125. Wife got it for me for Christmas. He goes slow, so they are pretty helpful.

At the risk of shameless promotion, our site (see below) has some helpful people, and we have a buy/sell forum where people sell their spare tooling.
 

bugnut

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It is important to know what speeds your lathe is capable and also what shape the ways are in. As a general rule, Carbide disposable inserts do not like shock or low speed, also require a special wheel to regrind. HSS is softer, runs slower, and doesn't mind to much shock or vibration, can be reground on you home double pedestal grinder. Aloris is the top line of tool posts all others are copies of Aloris. Buy good drills and tooling one time, learn to resharpen them as others have said. Watch you hands and feet be very careful getting started. Lots of youtube. Enjoy safely
 

royesses

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If you can spend a little extra the Arthur Warner Co.
http://www.arwarnerco.com/
has HSS indexable tooling in many sizes that are very well made and sharp. The inserts are easily sharpened with a sharpening stone. These will get you going quickly and you can still purchase HSS blanks to learn how to grind your own.

The hobby-machinist forum is a wonderful resource for learning from hobbyists and pro's and has thousands of downloads. Never allows flaming and everyone is eager to help.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/

Nelson58 is the founder and a really great person.

Roy
 
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Strouty

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South Bend Model Fourteen

The ways are in good condition and were flame hardened.

High range speed 300 - 1800

Low range speed 50 - 300

Thanks for the input, I will be watching some videos today. I will also get some more pictures loaded up. I need to go through my pieces and parts to see what I can find.
 
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Strouty

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I have a mill, not experienced with that either. Just got both of them running the other day after a few years of sitting and waiting.
 

VocaTexas

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For a beginner, such as myself, I'd recommend these videos:


The guy that does those videos isn't exactly high energy, but there's good info there.

I also watch Mr. Pete, Abom 79, Keith Rucker, Keith Fenner, and Oxtool.

I just ordered some more tooling from Little Machine Shop; they've got some decent prices. I also try to make auctions and estate sales and pick up tooling when I can get a decent deal on it.
 
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Strouty

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I think at this point, I need to understand what the tooling is and what it does. I wouldn't know a useful piece from a useless piece of tooling right now.
 

Maui

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You can often buy tooling relatively inexpensively by looking at Craigslist, estate sales, and attending auctions. Two things to keep in mind when running your Lathe or your mill: always wear eye protection and NEVER wear gloves.

Maui
 
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Strouty

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I think for me, eye protection, no gloves, no watch/jewelry, and short sleeves only. I have seen some pretty nasty images and I don't want to end up in one of those threads as a cautionary tale.
 
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Strouty

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I bought my first SB Fourteen for $250 after the owner's rigging guy dumped it on its face. The one I have now I bought knowing reverse was an issue, but I knew it had to be the switch and it was. Now I have lots of spare parts.
 

BuffettFan

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First off- As Maui said, and seems you agree, is the no gloves, long sleeves or jewelry and always wear safety glasses. I tell all of my students that the lathe is the most dangerous machine in the shop.
For inexpensive tooling that seems good for hobby / beginner use, take a look at Grizzly. If you have a project were you don't want to keep stopping to sharpen HSS or brazed carbide, indexable tooling is a huge time saver. A CNMG 43x (The third number denotes the corner radius. 1,2 or 3 with the higher the number, the larger the rad. IIRC, .015", .020" and .030") style insert will do facing and turning equally well. I would recommend that for your first purchase.
If you don't crash it, the inserts will last a long time and you get 4 cutting edges per insert. You can also buy a tool holder that uses the other 4 "off" corners that can be used for some applications, but are not nearly as flexable in their use due to the insert geometry.
As several have mentioned, used is a good way to go with the holders, just be sure of what you are buying. The basic lathe tooling is typically takes ISO inserts that you can find anywhere. Stay away from any holders that take proprietary inserts. The inserts will be much more expensive and the manufacturers tend to obsolete their proprietary stuff regularly so you have to buy a new holder when they stop selling the insert for your old holder.
Sorry for rambling on, good luck with the lathe!
 

zkling

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You may want a insert holder or two, saves from the sharpening. However, that machine was designed to run HSS tooling, if you do go for indexable tools make sure you go with positive rake as that machine does not have the power, speed or rigidity to properly the majority of negative rake insert tooling.

Check ebay for used tooling, just watch out for things that are destroyed. Lots of auction resellers peddling worn out tool holders and certain insert holders are very easily damaged in the insert pocket.

A cheap DRO be it mag mounted indicators, caliper or full scale would make your life much easier.
 
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Strouty

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I thought I saw indexable HSS tooling, should I just get that? What is the difference between my lathe and one designed to use something other than HSS?
 

dr_clyde

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Ok Strouty, welcome to the turning world! The lathe is one of the most useful tools in the shop.

You can do a lot of lathe work with a few simple tools. You can spend a lot of money without trying too hard either.

You have only a few basic lathe operations. Facing, turning, boring and parting/grooving. IMO, you want 1 toolholder for each one of those operations. Usually, the facing and turning tool are the same, so I keep the 4th toolholder setup for a 45° chamfer tool. Go on ebay or Practical Machinist classifieds and buy the Aloris or Dorian toolholders. I've had the cheap ones, they ****. If you'd rather buy new, McMaster-Carr sells the tool blocks individually for a reasonable price.

As Zkling said, a south bend is optimized for HSS tooling. You can do all the lathe operations you need with hand ground HSS toolbits for only a few dollars. "How To Run A Lathe" by South Bend is a good beginner primer on what tools do what for lathes. It will take some practice to get the shapes and geometry correct for the proper rake, nose radius, chipbreakers, and tool clearances. I'm a fan of MoMax toolbits, cheap and available, very good steel.

Inserted carbide is SO much more convenient for lathe work that I have a hard time using HSS unless I have to. You should be able to run some basic inserted carbide without too much trouble. You're not going to be running it optimally, but you will be able to take advantage of the convenience of simply changing/rotating an insert instead of sharpening.

The insert shapes for lathe tools are fairly universal, and aren't brand specific. A few common shapes are all you need. The letter designations in the insert name tell you all about it. The first letter is the shape, the second letter is the relief angle, third is the manufacuriing tolerance of the insert, and the last letter tells you the chipbreaker configuration and how the insert is held in the holder. There are numbers after the letters telling you the insert size, thickness and nose radius.

My 2 most common inserts are WNMG and TNMG, for turning and boring. The trigon shape of the WNMG gives me 6 points per insert for good economy, and the triangle insert is great for fine finishes with a boring bar or OD turning tool. My lathe can run a negative geometry, but yours may not be able to. Again, like Zkling was saying, these insert shapes can be had with a positive tool geometry, reducing the HP and SFM needed to make them cut well.

Tool holders can be a bit of a pain to find with a BXA post. Most inserted carbide is designed to be run on CNC equipment, and they typically take 3/4" and 1" shank tools. I've had to mill down the holders to fit a BXA holder, as they can handle 5/8"? I think? Anyway, I like Hertel for inexpensive but good quality toolholders. Iscar, Kennemetal, and Seco all make really nice carbide tooling.

For parting off, you can go a long time with a nice HSS blade. 1/8" thick is good for general work. The smaller the shaft diameter, the thinner your parting blade needs to be to reduce tool pressure.Remember, SFM goes down at a given RPM as diameter decreases. You can get into trouble trying to part off from 3" all the way to a nub with the same RPM and feed. You may need to stop and speed up your RPM half way through the cut. Keep it sharp, and use it with oil or coolant. Keep it on center.

For tailstock work, you're gonna want a live center, which you said you have, a drill chuck, and if you get into tube work a lot, a bull nose center. A jacobs ball bearing super chuck is my favorite chuck. As far a centers go, I have a couple no name ones that keep on chugging, but Royal makes my favorite. Spendy though. A steady rest is really handy if you do long shaft work. Required, really.

As far as headstock chucks are concerned, you said you have a 3 jaw. Chuck keys are easily made, but you can buy them from MSC. What kind of chuck is it? An adjust-true chuck is desirable. It allows you to dial in the work on a 3 jaw as though it were on a 4 jaw. You can easily tell by how many pinions the chuck has, and whether it has the adjust true screws. A regular plain scroll chuck has 3 pinions. An adjust-true has only 1 scroll pinion, and 4 adjust true set screws.

Reversible face jaws are preferable to a second set of solid jaws, but both work. Make sure you can flip your jaws one way or another.

A 4 jaw is really handy to have, but you can go a long time without one. But when you need one, not much else will do. I like my 4 jaw to be one size bigger than my 3 or 6 jaw chuck.

Shoot me a message if you have any questions.
 
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Strouty

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Dr Clyde, so when you said:

"Tool holders can be a bit of a pain to find with a BXA post. Most inserted carbide is designed to be run on CNC equipment, and they typically take 3/4" and 1" shank tools. I've had to mill down the holders to fit a BXA holder, as they can handle 5/8"? I think? Anyway, I like Hertel for inexpensive but good quality toolholders. Iscar, Kennemetal, and Seco all make really nice carbide tooling."

Are we talking about tool holders as in what holds a carbide indexable cutter or the BXA tool holders themselves or a combination of them? I am a bit confused.

I have plenty of jacobs chucks, I would like to get a bull nose center as I plan on using tube/pipe for things, and I will have to investigate what the chuck I have is.
 

dr_clyde

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I mean the insert holders. They aren't usually made with shanks small enough to fit a BXA tool block.

Although the BXA post is one of the most popular, and finding used tool blocks can be a bit difficult due to that.
 
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Strouty

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That is what I thought, but I wanted to make sure. I am going to be taking things slow as I don't have a lot of extra money to dedicate to this particular project right now. I did not get into the shop much yesterday as it was nice outside and I had another project to do. Will try and post some pictures of what I have tonight.
 

matt_i

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I've had good luck with Shars tooling, its a good balance between quality and value.

I wouldnt run negative rake tooling with a lathe powered by less than a 5hp motor.

I like CCMT inserts with which one can turn and face without switching. The downside is only 2 corners per insert.

If you are new to carbide the .52 insert has a larger corner radius which is more forgiving. The .51 insert has a tiny corner radius and the $10 insert can explode fairly fast.

Along those lines don't ever stop the lathe mid-cut with the tool point engaged in the work. Its pretty much guaranteed to chip the insert.

All of this said, a $5 HSS toolbit of 5/16" or 3/8" square will outlast $100 worth of inserts. The tradeoff is many trips to the grinding wheel and india stone to keep it touched up.
 

metlmunchr

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You first have to decide whether you want to make some parts when you need them, or if you want to spend 3/4 of your time fiddling around with grinding HSS tools and watching the machine as it makes painfully slow cuts with those tools.

If the answer is "make parts", then you want to use inserted carbide tools to the greatest extent possible. With a top speed of 1800 rpm, you have plenty of speed to run carbide efficiently even on relatively small diameter work. OTOH, if you consider your time to be worth nothing, then HSS is always going to be the cheapest alternative.

Matt posted some really good information up above. Negative rake tooling (cnmg, tnmg, dnmg, etc) is tempting to purchase based on the number of cutting edges per insert, but the neutral rake tools (ccmt, tcmt, etc) like Matt mentioned will work far better, particularly for a beginner.

I'd avoid plastics as a learning material. Their tendency to create a string that winds around the material rather than a chip that will break makes plastics some of the most frustrating materials you'll ever turn. Its good to learn using materials that build confidence rather than ones that are a constant PITA that makes you want to push the lathe back to the corner and forget it.

1117 and 1144 are both free cutting steels that are nice to work with. Chips break freely and both materials produce a nice surface finish.

Some aluminum alloys are great too, but the ones that cut good in the dry condition are expensive. 6061-T6 is probably the most widely used and cheapest aluminum, but if you cut it dry its also bad to make a string that winds up around the stock. Flood it with coolant and it'll break a chip, but the heat of dry cutting anneals the material at the point of the cut and it makes strings.

This site https://latheinserts.com/5-8-SHANK-LATHE-TOOLING_c164.htm has a good selection of 5/8 shank turning tools and inserts at reasonable prices. The owner is a former Kennametal engineer with a deep knowledge of both turning and milling tools. His kit with toolholder, 4 steel cutting inserts, and 2 aluminum cutting inserts for about $62 would be a good first purchase as the 80* diamond shape inserts will do probably 90% of the turning and facing work you'll normally encounter.

Shars is a good source too. I recently purchased an ER-40 collet chuck and full set of ER collets for holding small endmills in my horizontal boring mill, for less than half the cost of any of the major brands. The test of good collet tooling is how true the tools run in the spindle. The Shars tools consistently checked at .001" runout and I know there's .001 runout in the HBM spindle itself, so the Shars tooling was about as perfect as I could ask for, regardless of price.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about searching for Aloris tool blocks. Half the used stuff you'll find has been abused in one way or another, yet the Aloris name brings a premium price. Used is fine if you can lay eyes on it, but not so great when you have to judge condition based on some selective angle pics on Ebay.

I've been running Phase 2 toolposts and blocks on 4 lathes from a 11" Harrison to a 22" Monarch for 20 years, and I've never scrapped a part that I could blame on the posts or blocks. IMO, the stuff from Shars is better quality than Phase 2, and if I needed a new QC toolpost set tomorrow, that's where I'd get it. Shars has the individual tool blocks as well as sets with the post.

On a 14" lathe, I'd look first to see if I could fit a CXA toolpost. You need to check the height between the top surface of the compound and the centerline of the chuck and compare that to the minimum height of the cutting edge when mounted in a tool block and installed on the toolpost, but most 14" lathes will definitely handle a CXA. The CXA would give you the ability to hold shanks up to 3/4" square, which gives you a lot more options in available toolholders. A set with post and toolblocks from Shars costs not much more than a single new block from Aloris, and your current BXA would likely bring enough in the used market to pay for most of the cost of the CXA set.
 

Provincial

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On lighter lathes a positive rake chipbreaker insert can work well. I have both 10" and 12" Atlas lathes (the 12" is almost the last one made, and is much heavier built than the 10") and I use the inexpensive 3/8" square holders with TCMT inserts on an imported AXA piston tool block.

I get smooth finishes, short chips (not stringy), and can keep the surface speed up with only a 3/4 hp motor on the 10" and a 1 hp motor on the 12". If I only ran the 12", I would have opted for 1/2" square holders.

I only have three cutting edges per insert with the TCMT, but the built-in chipbreaker and positive rake make it work well with the limited horsepower. Manageable chips are important to me, and that is another benefit.

Recently, I turned a 9" diameter 6061T6 piece, I started with HSS, but got long, stringy chips and a marginal surface finish. I tried the TCMT carbide, and got ideal chips and an excellent surface finish.

I use Caterpillar bolts (I get used ones from repair shops) for round stock and they machine like butter with beautiful surface finish with the TCMT inserts.
 
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Strouty

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I have officially run my lathe and made my first part with it. I ended up borrowing some tooling from my dad, it got the job done, but wasn't ideal. I need to decide what I am going to do for a tool post, it currently has the aloris BXA, but I think I can use a CXA or maybe even a CA tool post. I eventually want to buy a larger gap bed lathe and having all the same tool holders would be nice as I probably won't get rid of this lathe. Anyways, I am going to try and post a few pictures. I also got the mill going, but that is for another thread. [emoji4]

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dr_clyde

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I have an Aloris CA post on my 19" lathe. I wouldn't want smaller, but it may be a bit big for a 14" lathe. CXA is probably your best bet.
 

Milton Shaw

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Agree on no loose clothing. Shirts, rings, chains, even a shop coat can get caught in a lathe easily. If it doesn't have one install a big off switch very easy to get to. Lathes can make a lot of job easier, for instance I use mine to refill weed eater spools when I have more than one to do. Get a good set of files and fine grit sanding strips to help finish off the work and some good calipers or micrometers to help measure. Most recommend not using air to clean off chips as that drives them into the bearings and ways. Brush or vacuum is the recommended way. A good set of thread repair square tread chasers is very handy for repairing thread at a slow speed on a lathe. Get some tapered arbors for turning pulleys and other things between centers for the most accuracy. Get some good books on lathe and milling machine work and learn as much as you can. Great to be able to repair and make things from scratch instead of having to buy them.
 
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Strouty

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After a lot of thought, I am sticking with a BXA, my father has the same setup, as well as another guy I know, so it makes sense. I saw a CA at an industrial pawn shop and it certainly is large. The BXA has oversized holders that allow for 3/4” if I remember and I think that will be fine for now. If and when I add another larger lathe, I can look at the going to the larger tool post.
 
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