Lathe tooling?

[bad_idea]

I recently had a Grizzly 12x37 lathe follow me home. The price was right, free! It came with a 3 jaw chuck, a 4 jaw chuck, faceplate, rocker tool post, a follow rest, steady rest, Dorian quick change tool post (SD30BXA), and tail stock. It also appears to have an attachment on the backside of the carriage that I think is for cutting tapers?

I would like to make a pair of alignment pins for lining up flanges. They need to be around 5/8" diameter, approx 3" long, a head on one end and a decent taper on the other end. I have some scrap material I can use for turning. I just don't know what tooling I need to accomplish this task. I am under the assumption this is a simple task, a good beginner job for me to 'cut my teeth' on. Am I missing something? I am not sure what tooling I need though. Cost is a definite factor at this point in time. This is strictly for home use, so top dollar equipment isn't necessary.

I think I need a set of cutting bits, I saw this set on ebay, will they work for me? Is there a better set I should be looking at for a reasonable price? I don't think I need a center to support the end of the workpiece because the part I am machining is only 3" long, do I need a center for that? What else do I need for this? I would eventually like to use the Dorian quick change holder, but it doesn't have the bit holders, only the tool post. It looks like the only benefit of the quick change post over the rocker post is speed and perhaps adjust-ability. Am I missing something there? Will the rocker post accomplish this task and later the same bits work with the quick change post? I have a set of calipers, a dial indicator, and a 0-1 micrometer. I occasionally do alignments at work lining up pumps and motors, so I have a bit of experience/knowledge/tooling for that.

I am sorry to ask so many questions. Machining is very foreign to me. Thanks for the help everybody.

 

[383 240z]

I can't click on your eBay link, I'm guessing its a 5pc carbide cutting set??? Learn to walk before you run. Buy some cheap HSS lathe bits from Enco or similar, learn to grind them, Some great videos on YouTube (search MrPete222) he teaches things in a plain simple manner, he is a retired shop teacher, He is not Gods gift to machinists nor is he perfect, but he will show you the basics in a easy to follow manner, and he has several very good tool grinding videos.

Have fun!!! A lathe in the shop will open up WORLDS of new things you can do, next thing you know you will be dragging home a mill, then it gets REAL fun!!!! Keith

 

[bad_idea]

It's a 6 piece carbide set for $20. Why do you say to go w/ HSS over carbide? The material I have for these alignment pins are two shafts I pulled out of the scrap bin. I do not know what the shafts came out of, but I assume they are hardened and thought the carbide would be better. I also noticed the cutting bits come in different sizes. I assume this is to fit different holders? Larger bits for removing more material in a pass on a larger lathe?

BTW... What kind of times does the 240z run w/ a 383 in it? A large engine in a small car is on my bucket list, the 240z's look like a fun platform to play with.

 

[Camtwo69]

I have better luck with the HSS getting a better finish . I bought the carbide bits from enco like the ones from E-bay . To me they don't cut well for me .

 

[A_Pmech]

Agreed, begin by learning how to sharpen HSS. Buy a few blank toolbits and a 38A60 I, J or K VBE wheel to fit your bench grinder along with a silicon carbide dressing stick of about 24 grit or so and a bench stone.

The Mr. Pete videos are a good introduction, along with Moltrecht's two-volume set "Modern Machine Shop Practice" which includes a section on offhand HSS grinding showing the angles to use when sharpening your tools. Don't forget speeds and feeds!

Why start with HSS? Because there are still many times on a manual machine where HSS is the way to do the job. In addition, your lathe is really too small and light to take advantage of carbide tools. Finally, brazed carbide is obsolete, difficult to sharpen and just as difficult to learn how to use.

Regarding your questions:

Generally speaking, you want to use the tailstock for stock sticking out of the chuck more than 4-5 diameters, depending on it's modulus of elasticity.

The rocker toolpost will do fine as long as you can set the tool at or slightly below center.

 

[bad_idea]

You guys are killing me! Now I have to buy a bench grinder. Or perhaps use the one at work. Do you have to sharpen the bits periodically during use? How often do they need sharpening? I am thinking I could sharpen the bits one afternoon at work and then make my alignment pins at home if they will stay sharp throughout the machining of the pins. I am not oppose to buying a bench grinder, but the funds just aren't there right now. I really want to try the lathe out!

 

[383 240z]

Once your good at it you can grind a bit in a few mins, a few seconds to dress them. If you don't over run them they will stay sharp for a long time. Unless I screw up I will go several jobs between sharpening. You can use any cheap grinder really, you wont be pushing very hard, as you dont want to take the temper out of the HSS. I just figured you had a grinder, most guys have that WAY before they get a lathe. BTW awesome score!!!

As to the times mine in not a 1/4 mile car. On my local track a hot CBR600RR will turn 1.03.42 a Pro Formula Mazda 0.51.77 My car with a **** driver (me) will run an average 1.08.00 My buddy with a similar car (1977 280z with a real hot 350) runs 10.365 @ 134.280MPH with a 1.520 60' times.

 

[GRX]

Great advice. Learning to grind your own cutters properly is Machinist 101. Carbide bits break easily and require special stones for sharpening. Next topic for discussion ... coolants.

 

[justanengineer]

The fellas make some good suggestions above. As to a bench grinder, not sure where you are but around these parts a small cheap asian 6" grinder runs $10-20 on CList and will get you started. Regarding HSS, it makes for a very good general purpose cutter bc its very resilient whereas carbide is very brittle. Break a $0.10 HSS bit on an interrupted cut and you wont get pissy bc its easily reground. Break a $5 carbide insert thats a PITA to regrind and you might get a little upset w/yourself. I always start with HSS and only find about 1% of the time do I need carbide, but then again Im not a production shop. Also, some jobs like single point threading are often easier when done run slower. Carbide requires the revs.

If youre ever at the fleas or a garage sale keep your eyes open for buckets of HSS bits...they can be pricey comparatively when bought new.

 

[larry_g]

You guys are killing me! Now I have to buy a bench grinder. Or perhaps use the one at work. Do you have to sharpen the bits periodically during use? How often do they need sharpening? I am thinking I could sharpen the bits one afternoon at work and then make my alignment pins at home if they will stay sharp throughout the machining of the pins. I am not oppose to buying a bench grinder, but the funds just aren't there right now. I really want to try the lathe out!

I don't know how many times it has been said that the cost of a machine tool is only 1/2 the bill. Now you need a grinder to dress the bits, a saw to cut the material, metrology to check your work, and lubes, cutting fluids, tooling for the quick change and rocker post, and tooling for the tail stock. Now a machinery's handbook to tell you all the good stuff about speeds feeds and 10,000 other things.

Carbide is not magic. It has its place in the field just as well as HSS and other cutting tool materials. Your saying you don't know the material your going to cut. Take a file and file a bit off the end. If it files ok then you can cut it with HSS. If the file balks or skips altogether then your in to deep to start messing with it, find another material. A couple of reasons to start with HSS, one you have to learn about grinding all the angles and what they do. Second it is more forgiving than carbide and cheaper. Hss will dull and you can sharpen it easily. Carbide breaks more and with out proper sharpening stones/wheels you cannot redress it. In regards to the cutting tools you linked to a lot of newbies, me included, have tried to start with those and failed miserably. I tore up most of the set without getting anything done. Finally paid attention and learned to grind HSS, understand why the angles were there, and go slow to learn.

In addition to the Moltrec books above I have found a few old highschool and machine shop textbooks to be of help. Find them at the used book stores. Also find books of the '60s and '70s vintage as they teach the basics that still work today. New books are more biased to modern tools and technology. If you were close I would be glad to lend a hand, but you seem unwilling to give up location.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[bad_idea]

I am a bit paranoid on willy-nilly passing out my location on the internet Larry. I appreciate the offer though. I am quite far from you though. Thank you.

Thank you all for taking the time to explain the reason for using HSS vs. carbide. What size bits do I need though? I don't understand what the size of cutting bits references. Is bigger better? I searched the manual for the lathe and it didn't specify what size bits to use.

I have a copy of South Bend's "How to run a screw cutting lathe" on the way from Amazon. Just hoping to order some tooling to arrive shortly after I get the book. I will be going out of town for travel soon and would like to play with my new toy before I leave.

 

[2oolhound]

I'm a newbie too but the bit size will depend on your tool holder size. You can get different tool holders to fit in the rocker post, You need a left, right and centre and they will hold 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 size bits etc.

 

[larry_g]

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=164&PMCTLG=00

The tool bits you want are the M2 bits in the link above probably in 1/4 or 3/8" square. They are cheap and I would suggest that you get a few of the size you need. If you have no tool holders then look on the previous page of the tool bits and and you will find holders for the rocker tool post at the bottom of the page. You will need a size that will fit the width of the slot in the tool post.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=461&PMCTLG=00

The above holders should fit the Dorian tool post if you can determine what series it is, axa or bxa

lg
no neat sig line

 

[kazlx]

A 5/8" pin 3" long should only take you an hour even if you've never used a lathe before. Once you figure it out, should be a 5 minute job. I agree with the HSS, but if you want to buy a cheap carbide set to start with, do it. It's an easy way to get started. I think most guys assumed you had a grinder. Although the stock wheels that come on them don't grind HSS all that well. I bought a cheap carbide set to try mainly just to compare and they work fine for hobby work. I used it for this....made some feet to replace the plastic ones on a dresser.

 

[IndyGarage]

Those $20 carbide sets are for folks who bought the cheapo 6x23 mini lathe from China.

Your lathe sounds more substantial. Personally I like Carbide cutting tools. I generally try to use at least a 1/2 inch square tool bars on the lathe - sometimes you need something smaller - like for boring, and those small tool sets are handy

 

[A_Pmech]

You guys are killing me! Now I have to buy a bench grinder. Or perhaps use the one at work. Do you have to sharpen the bits periodically during use? How often do they need sharpening? I am thinking I could sharpen the bits one afternoon at work and then make my alignment pins at home if they will stay sharp throughout the machining of the pins. I am not oppose to buying a bench grinder, but the funds just aren't there right now. I really want to try the lathe out!

Yes, they require sharpening during use. How often depends on how much you abuse the tool. However, the same applies to brazed carbide tools! The difference being brazed carbide tools are harder to sharpen and many times more likely to chip.

When sharpening HSS it is important to use the proper grinding wheel. A standard bench grinding wheel is far too hard. Consequently, it won't cut like it should and will produce lots of heat instead. Your first project should be making an arbor to mount a 3/4" wide 38A surface grinding wheel to your new bench grinder. A 38A60 I, J or K VBE wheel is about right for grinding HSS freehand. They usually come with a 1-1/4" arbor size which needs to be bushed down to 1/2" or so for the bench grinder.

 

[383 240z]

Check out www.cdcotools.com You said you had a BXA QCTP You can pick up the tool holders there pretty cheap. The BXA size uses any where from 1/4"-5/8" bits depending on what your turning. You'll pay about $10 each for them part number is 15001

 

[bad_idea]

Wow, you guys are awesome! I read through your posts and will now have to absorb and digest the complicated information you all have thrown at me. My version of machinist work involves a 2 lb ball peen hammer. This sh!t is complicated. Thanks.

 

[bad_idea]

383 240, what is the difference between the $9 holder you posted and the $40 (chinese) holder larry_g posted? I am assuming the quality is better on the $40 piece. Have you used the $9 holder? Is it any good?

Thank you for posting the links to the tool bits larry. If the holder will hold 1/4"-5/8" bits, what size bit should I use for turning a 5/8" diameter pin with a taper on the end?

Thank you for the information on the grinding stone A_PMech. How difficult is it to make the adapter bushing you speak of? I am thinking it would be turn the outside diameter for the 1 1/4" arbor, then thread the outside, then drill the center hole, then tap the center hole. That about sum it up (maybe out of order)? Would I chuck that in the 3 jaw chuck or would that involve a faceplate or some other tool to attach it to the headstock? I want to re-iterate that at this point I am trying to plan ahead on what tooling I need to get me started. I am waiting on the Southbend book, "How to run a screw cutting lathe" and am only trying to get an idea right now. I do not expect a detailed explanation outlining step by step instructions, just trying to get a game plan together at this point.

I think I will scour CL for a cheap bench grinder and take my chances with whatever grinding wheel comes on it until I can make an adapter to fit the surface grinder wheel you recommend on the bench grinder. I am assuming I will be able to make a workable tool bit with a standard grinding wheel. I understand it isn't the most desirable grinding wheel to use, but it will get the job done (less efficiently) right? Thanks again.

Nice looking dresser legs kazlx. That is the kind of project I need to show the wife to justify dumping a bunch of money in to my new toy. I always try to use new tools to make her something. She doesn't complain about the money/ time in the garage as much then.

 

[larry_g]

383 240, what is the difference between the $9 holder you posted and the $40 (chinese) holder larry_g posted? I am assuming the quality is better on the $40 piece. Have you used the $9 holder? Is it any good?

I think you'll probably not find $30 difference in the two. Typically the $9 holders have perty soft screws and they may not have the tightest tolerances but a lot use them. I just grabbed the Enco site because I knew they would have the tool I wanted to point out to you.

Thank you for posting the links to the tool bits larry. If the holder will hold 1/4"-5/8" bits, what size bit should I use for turning a 5/8" diameter pin with a taper on the end?

For most uses a 3/8" bit will do but for a buck apiece just get 8-10 bits of various sizes. You will use them.

My answers in Red above. For bits look at ebay and find lots like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-NICE-LOT-...495?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416e256c0f

You get a bunch of bits ground, so you can see what they maybe should look like, and a few new ones. This is how I started and if you score a few lots of good ones then your set for years. Search for lathe bits

lg
no neat sig line

 

[OccupantRJ]

For the adapter bushing for the grinder wheel, you just need a simple bushing to adapt the wheel to the grinder shaft, along with a washer big enough to clamp the wheel properly. A lot of wheels come with plastic adapter bushings to allow adaptation, but the wheels AP referenced normally have an 1-1/4" mounting hole, normally no bushing, so you would need one to be able to adapt it to your grinder. That being said,we have used a standard bench grinder wheel in our production shop for 50 years, so it obviously will get the job done. The higher skilled guys grind toolbits using the type of wheels AP suggested, as it seems easier to dress a sharper corner on them when needed.

 

[383 240z]

The $9 ones work just fine, I did replace the screws with higher quality ones. I keep a fair amount of bits around in all sizes from 1/4"-5/8" I'm not sure what your turning, however I use the largest (most rigid) tool that will do the job.

Yes you can grind bits on the standard grinding wheel, I was doing it for years before I even knew there was a wheel just for that.

I would call Enco and grab their big catalog, that will give you a good idea of what tooling is out there, CDCO is pretty cheap, but not a large selection, Enco has 2 quality levels on most stuff. Import and name brand. I've been able to keep decent tolerances with the import stuff, I just take longer,as I'm doing it for me and not for a profit.

Look for a magazine called "The Home Shop Machinist" it's kinda spendy at $6.25 an issue but it has a lot of decent info. Also check out http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/forums/3-General Place like here but just machine tools and techniques. Good group of helpful guys.

You been checking out those Mrpete222 videos? Keith

 

[bad_idea]

Thanks for the not-so-subtle reminder to check out the Mrpete222 videos Keith. There is so much information in this thread that I missed the suggestion the first time you told me. They are good videos. I especially found the videos on how to sharpen tool bits useful. He used a piece of 2x2 wood to show how to sharpen them. Very well explained.

I think I am about ready to order tooling now for my alignment pin project. Looks like a couple tool bits, I hope to find a nice lot on ebay as Larry suggested. The tool holder you referenced Keith. A cheapie bench grinder from CL. Do I need a holder to hold the tool bit in the quick change tool holder? Or does the quick change holder hold the tool bit? Am I missing anything to accomplish this very basic project? I know there are many more widgets to buy for the lathe, but I plan to buy the bare bones at this point to "get my feet wet". Thanks again.

Ben

 

[5mall5nail5]

Can anyone recommend some tooling to machine circlip/snap ring grooves in a pin? I am thinking quite thin. My small bench top lathe takes 5/16" tooling.

 

[kazlx]

What does your lathe look like now? You probably don't need anything besides a turning tool. If you are interested, I just bought a ridiculous amount of HSS tooling and could send you some that are already ground to get you started.

 

[kazlx]

Can anyone recommend some tooling to machine circlip/snap ring grooves in a pin? I am thinking quite thin. My small bench top lathe takes 5/16" tooling.

How wide and deep of a groove? You can probably either grind one to the shape you need or use a parting tool.

 

[5mall5nail5]

How wide and deep of a groove? You can probably either grind one to the shape you need or use a parting tool.

About 0.043" and maybe 0.065" deep or so.

 

[kazlx]

Unless you need the .003 extra, I would just buy a .040 parting tool and plunge cut to the depth you need.

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1930&category=

 

[5mall5nail5]

Thanks only prob is, I can't hold a 1/2" tool, I have a Grizzly 7x12, how can I get that tool to work?

 

[kazlx]

What kind of tool holders you have?

 

[5mall5nail5]

None kind lol

I just have the stock tool post that holds the tool in with screws.

 

[kazlx]

Lantern style?

 

[5mall5nail5]

No, like this:


Grizzly Lathe by Jon Kensy, on Flickr

 

[kazlx]

You grind your own bits before? I would just grind one that fits. If it doesn't need to be super precision, you can grind one to the width you need and do it in one pass.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Being able to grind your own tool bits is the FIRST thing one should learn in operating the machine, beyond safety aspects for machining. I can do a high percentage of what I do professionally and at home with four or five tool bits. Beyond that, I keep a small sectioned box with my handground specials in it. Why run out and buy a bit for every job? Make it do what YOU want it to do by obtaining the knowledge to grind it properly for your intended use. A small amount of time spent learning how will yield big rewards.