LED can-less wafer light code and detail questions

[billconner]

Installing t&g porch ceiling and plan on installing 9 canless wafer lights. I've ordered them from nuwatt. These have separate junction box with driver and cord and plug connected water.

Code wise is it perfectly acceptable for that box to be laying on ceiling? Is it required to be able to fish box out of hole cut for water? I presume we so as the means to service it. I ask because 2 lights are directly under a double 2x6 ceiling joist. I could preposition box and install water after ceiling but suspect that isn't code. I'll probably notch joists enough to get box in and out. Not too deep of cut since I have furring under joists. Thought I could set a pair of 2x4s on top and plate sides with plywood or sister a 2x4 on each side with timbertek screws through.

Stupid question but if I preposition the NM-B, should I leave an uncut loop or ok to cut and leave 2 ends at all but last fixture? I need to see one box but believe they are designed for two cables and probably have wago connectors for 3 wires.

 

[billconner]

Found this while looking for answer to loop or cut. A bit of a pedant but interesting.

 

[rlitman]

The boxes for wafer lights don't leave a lot of wiring room. You CAN work with 12AWG (yellow) NM-B, but you'll be much happier if you can do this with 14AWG (white) on a 15A circuit. The push in connectors they come with are fine, so long as you're only powering more of these lights on the pass-through (and you really shouldn't be powering an outlet through these boxes, even if code allows for it).

For service, it is imperative that you are able to pull the box out of the hole the wafer sits in. That means you need enough loose NM-B on both tails to reach the hole, come out and do your wiring. I installed 35 wafer lights in a big renovation in 2017, and had one fail a couple of years later where the failure was in the power supply in the box, so I had to get the box out. That really SUCKED, because the guy who put up the sheetrock ceiling thought he was doing me a favor by stapling up my loops of wire. Reaching through the hole in the ceiling to pull out the staples was so much "fun".

The boxes are pretty small, and it's likely you'll be able to pull them down through the hole, even if the wafer is straddling a joist, but not under a double. So, I'd suggest you either re-think that layout, or figure out a way to retain access to the box (because the wafer itself can still fit there). Is another light close enough that the hole from that could service the adjacent box? Alternatively, I found they make extension cords for the wire tail that goes to the wafer. So you could position your beam blocked box where it can be accessed by a nearby light's hole, and pre-install a conduit pass-through to get the tail to reach across to where you need it.

Extension Cord - Recessed Lighting Parts and Accessories - The Home Depot

Get free shipping on qualified Extension Cord Recessed Lighting Parts and Accessories products or Buy Online Pick Up in Store today in the Lighting Department.

www.homedepot.com

Yes, the boxes are designed to lay on the ceiling. I pre-wired all of mine though, since the wafers have a disconnect. To make that work, I put velcro strips on the box and stuck them to the joists. That was kind of ok, but some of them fell off and needed reattachment. If I do this again (a large renovation, because this isn't an issue when doing an old-work install), I'd probably attach the boxes to the joists with blue tape secured with T50 staples. Just strong enough to not fall in an earthquake, but easy enough to pull by the wafer tail. Same goes for the NM-B service loops.

 

[dave*99]

Is it required to be able to fish box out of hole cut for water?

I have had quite a few failures with the 4" Sylvania wafer lights in my house. The boxes were prewired before drywall was installed. I am able to knock the loosely stapled cables free and pull the boxes out the hole. The boxes were suspended by the cables.

The electrician used these rough in plates.

 

[PCustoms]

Came here to see what a 9 cables water light was

 

[billconner]

rlitman - special thanks - you confirmed what I thought was the case. I just left a loop at each fixture, which I'll push way up when I install more ceiling. Making sure it's out of the way of hole saw. Pretty sure enough Romex and slack to get boxes in and out. I think in this case I'll just set boxes on ceiling. Not a seismic activity area and not worried about any hum or vibration outdoors.

I sistered the 2x6 diagonal joists. I'm going to remove a piece of the 1x4 furring. If I can't squeeze box by as is, I can shave a little off one 2x4 with buzzer tool.

I don't know if you watched video but I did like the single 2 screw box connector. Will consider that.

Bought a box of 12. Hope that keeps me going.

 

[mm08822]

Found this while looking for answer to loop or cut. A bit of a pedant but interesting.

At least he was meticulous and not a hack! I'll give him a thumbs up. A bit overkill for me and life changes quickly when on a step ladder.

 

[mm08822]

The boxes for wafer lights don't leave a lot of wiring room. You CAN work with 12AWG (yellow) NM-B, but you'll be much happier if you can do this with 14AWG (white) on a 15A circuit. The push in connectors they come with are fine, so long as you're only powering more of these lights on the pass-through (and you really shouldn't be powering an outlet through these boxes, even if code allows for it).

For service, it is imperative that you are able to pull the box out of the hole the wafer sits in. That means you need enough loose NM-B on both tails to reach the hole, come out and do your wiring. I installed 35 wafer lights in a big renovation in 2017, and had one fail a couple of years later where the failure was in the power supply in the box, so I had to get the box out. That really SUCKED, because the guy who put up the sheetrock ceiling thought he was doing me a favor by stapling up my loops of wire. Reaching through the hole in the ceiling to pull out the staples was so much "fun".

The boxes are pretty small, and it's likely you'll be able to pull them down through the hole, even if the wafer is straddling a joist, but not under a double. So, I'd suggest you either re-think that layout, or figure out a way to retain access to the box (because the wafer itself can still fit there). Is another light close enough that the hole from that could service the adjacent box? Alternatively, I found they make extension cords for the wire tail that goes to the wafer. So you could position your beam blocked box where it can be accessed by a nearby light's hole, and pre-install a conduit pass-through to get the tail to reach across to where you need it.

Extension Cord - Recessed Lighting Parts and Accessories - The Home Depot

Get free shipping on qualified Extension Cord Recessed Lighting Parts and Accessories products or Buy Online Pick Up in Store today in the Lighting Department.

www.homedepot.com

Yes, the boxes are designed to lay on the ceiling. I pre-wired all of mine though, since the wafers have a disconnect. To make that work, I put velcro strips on the box and stuck them to the joists. That was kind of ok, but some of them fell off and needed reattachment. If I do this again (a large renovation, because this isn't an issue when doing an old-work install), I'd probably attach the boxes to the joists with blue tape secured with T50 staples. Just strong enough to not fall in an earthquake, but easy enough to pull by the wafer tail. Same goes for the NM-B service loops.

Awesome tip on the extension cable. Could be a lifesaver.

 

[mm08822]

rlitman - special thanks - you confirmed what I thought was the case. I just left a loop at each fixture, which I'll push way up when I install more ceiling. Making sure it's out of the way of hole saw. Pretty sure enough Romex and slack to get boxes in and out. I think in this case I'll just set boxes on ceiling. Not a seismic activity area and not worried about any hum or vibration outdoors.

I sistered the 2x6 diagonal joists. I'm going to remove a piece of the 1x4 furring. If I can't squeeze box by as is, I can shave a little off one 2x4 with buzzer tool.

I don't know if you watched video but I did like the single 2 screw box connector. Will consider that.

Bought a box of 12. Hope that keeps me going.

Stash some spares for sure. It ***** when you can't match the remaining fixtures after failure. I've had to move others so I could hide the slight mis-match.

 

[rlitman]

...I don't know if you watched video but I did like the single 2 screw box connector...

I did, and that's pretty much the only clamp I like to use with NM-B. However, you could save some time and headaches and get the two-screw NM clamp that snaps in without needing the nut. The thin walls of these boxes can make getting the nut tight difficult.



Do be careful not to overtighten the two screws. You can easily squeeze these hard enough to pinch through the insulation and short things. I'm also not a huge fan of wrapping cables in electrical tape inside these clamps. If you're not using Scotch 88 (or 33+ or 35), the adhesive turns into a slippery greasy goo that can act as a lubricant in the clamp.

Stash some spares for sure. It ***** when you can't match the remaining fixtures after failure. I've had to move others so I could hide the slight mis-match.

Absolutely, though I'm not sure how well a stashed spare will color match the rest of a room of well used pucks after a few years. LEDs can lose their CRI over time as the phosphors fade. I have a few spares stored (and was able to find one replacement on a clearance rack after a couple of years), and my plan is to piece in spares as I need, and eventually swap out a room at a time, saving the working ones from each room as spares for the next. But so far it hasn't come to that, and I've only had to replace two. One just failed (in the power supply box), and the other was a puck damaged by a leak (the box still works).

 

[billconner]

At least he was meticulous and not a hack! I'll give him a thumbs up. A bit overkill for me and life changes quickly when on a step ladder.

Ditto. Though if the ones I ordered have the knock out, I might use that with a 2 screw connector, but probably stick with the wagon, wanna-bes or authentic.

 

[billconner]

I did, and that's pretty much the only clamp I like to use with NM-B. However, you could save some time and headaches and get the two-screw NM clamp that snaps in without needing the nut. The thin walls of these boxes can make getting the nut tight difficult.



Do be careful not to overtighten the two screws. You can easily squeeze these hard enough to pinch through the insulation and short things. I'm also not a huge fan of wrapping cables in electrical tape inside these clamps. If you're not using Scotch 88 (or 33+ or 35), the adhesive turns into a slippery greasy goo that can act as a lubricant in the clamp.


Absolutely, though I'm not sure how well a stashed spare will color match the rest of a room of well used pucks after a few years. LEDs can lose their CRI over time as the phosphors fade. I have a few spares stored (and was able to find one replacement on a clearance rack after a couple of years), and my plan is to piece in spares as I need, and eventually swap out a room at a time, saving the working ones from each room as spares for the next. But so far it hasn't come to that, and I've only had to replace two. One just failed (in the power supply box), and the other was a puck damaged by a leak (the box still works).

I do think these are getting better and more reliable. I've had 8 (Halo) in kitchen 4 years and no problem. Still making sure I can replace if needed.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Awesome tip on the extension cable. Could be a lifesaver.

read the reviews....these are made backwards and don't fit Halo. Make sure they fit whatever brand of wafer you have

 

[rlitman]

read the reviews....these are made backwards and don't fit Halo. Make sure they fit whatever brand of wafer you have

Agreed. There's no standard connector I'm aware of for these. So either get one specifically listed in your wafer light manufacturer's catalog, and/or test it ahead of time.

 

[Codyboy]

Found this while looking for answer to loop or cut. A bit of a pedant but interesting.

Thats how I did mine, except for the pretwist on the romex neutrals and hots, but I do twist the grounds.
Ive never believed in the pretwisting . Even the manufacturer says its unnecessary.

 

[billconner]

It did seem to assure a good connection with the fixtures 16 AWG leads. But I'm using the supplied Wago wannabees.

 

[LOW1]

It did seem to assure a good connection with the fixtures 16 AWG leads. But I'm using the supplied Wago wannabees.

Or real Wago lever types.
I am no electrician but I don’t like the spring lock type.

 

[rlitman]

Or real Wago lever types.
I am no electrician but I don’t like the spring lock type.

For LED lighting, they'll be fine. Keep in mind, the only thing special about the lever is it releases the spring for you. Even real Wago lever types rely on the spring for holding, and you can wiggle a wire out of them (with the lever closed) just as easily as from a push-in type.

 

[billconner]

NuWatt brand fixtures. Definitely stab in. I'm sending the Wago is not too much better? These are on our porch and that means 90Fs (rarely if ever 100F in my memory) to -20Fs or maybe -30Fs. Got to strain that connection.

I pulled hard on the stranded 16 and couldn't get it to release. I suspect solid 14 might release easier.

Can't believe the box is big enough by code. Guessing it makes it by tiny fractions of a cubic inch.

 

[LOW1]

For LED lighting, they'll be fine. Keep in mind, the only thing special about the lever is it releases the spring for you. Even real Wago lever types rely on the spring for holding, and you can wiggle a wire out of them (with the lever closed) just as easily as from a push-in type.

Yes. My dislike for spring loaded wagos revolves around the difficulty in removing and reinserting the wires if that is necessary. As in the video it’s easier to cut them off and then use a new one. I suspect a real electrician does not need to do that as much as I do.

 

[rlitman]

...I pulled hard on the stranded 16 and couldn't get it to release. I suspect solid 14 might release easier.

Can't believe the box is big enough by code. Guessing it makes it by tiny fractions of a cubic inch.

I don't think you can non-destructively straight pull the wires out of any of these. With solid copper you need to twist it up and back to walk it out. I'm also assuming they tinned the ends of the stranded, because you can't push stranded into a lever-less connector (that's where Wago shines).

Yeah, there's not much space in there. It's no fun with a pair of 12 AWG yellow romex cables, but it does all work with enough room to close the lid.

 

[billconner]

Yes stranded in fixture is tinned. One was loose but when I pushed it back in, I couldn't get it out again. I'm working with 14 and am going to try both in one two screw connector, trimming carefully, so minimum in box.

Someone showed anchoring boxes with Velcro. Thought about trying that.

 

[billconner]

All 9 installed and working. Selected 2700k. I'll try to get a night time photo and will measure illuminance. Definitely too bright at night. Lutron Diva? Single switch, and want one that I can present level and just turn on and off. Nuwatt fixtures, listed as dimmable, trailing edge dimmers recommended.

 

[dave*99]

All 9 installed and working. Selected 2700k. I'll try to get a night time photo and will measure illuminance. Definitely too bright at night. Lutron Diva? Single switch, and want one that I can present level and just turn on and off. Nuwatt fixtures, listed as dimmable, trailing edge dimmers recommended.

I used Leviton Smart switches. Decora style with small slide bar for level.
I didn't need trailing edge, but here is one.

Leviton Decora Slide Dimmer Switch for Electronic Low Voltage and Dimmable LED Bulbs, DSE06-10Z, White - Amazon.com

Leviton Decora Slide Dimmer Switch for Electronic Low Voltage and Dimmable LED Bulbs, DSE06-10Z, White - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[PCustoms]

I used Leviton Smart switches. Decora style with small slide bar for level.
I didn't need trailing edge, but here is one.

Leviton Decora Slide Dimmer Switch for Electronic Low Voltage and Dimmable LED Bulbs, DSE06-10Z, White - Amazon.com

Leviton Decora Slide Dimmer Switch for Electronic Low Voltage and Dimmable LED Bulbs, DSE06-10Z, White - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

I found a non-decora with a small slider, had mine dimmed all summer. Now that's it's dark earlier and I'm not sitting out there, they're on full bore so I can see everything

 

[billconner]

Encouraged by NuWatt (fixture mfg) to try the Lutron Meastro. That was my research also. Tomorrow.

8 to 10 foot candles at the work plane. Way to bright. Half or less.

A couple of night time photos, one with other exterior lighting. Planning a post light by road and on the blue barn to left in last first photo there is a plaque or sign that I want to spot some how. Then a couple of lights on the patio - between house and barn - so it can be used like a stage for parties.

 

[markietas]

Encouraged by NuWatt (fixture mfg) to try the Lutron Meastro. That was my research also. Tomorrow.

8 to 10 foot candles at the work plane. Way to bright. Half or less.

A couple of night time photos, one with other exterior lighting. Planning a post light by road and on the blue barn to left in last first photo there is a plaque or sign that I want to spot some how. Then a couple of lights on the patio - between house and barn - so it can be used like a stage for parties.

Surely you dropped a zero there?

My recollection is that 30 to 40 foot candles is fairly standard for office work, more for precision tasks.

Edit: I see you are talking about porch lights, which you would probably want a lot dimmer. I got tripped up by "work plane".

 

[billconner]

This is a porch. Just need 1 or 2 FC to move around.