LED - Color Temperature and Dimming Question

[The J]

Hi everyone,
this is kitchen specific, but still all around lighting related...

I'm outfitting my 225 sq. ft. kitchen with new LED downlights. We're using Nicor's DLR56 line. There are three versions to choose from: 2700K (703 lumens), 3000K (730 lumens), and 4000K (873 lumens). They're all CRI rated to 90.

Right now, we have the 4000k bulbs in and they are too bright for the kitchen. Great for a workspace, but it's like retail space or surgery room in there. I wish my garage were this well lit! So the light output is fantastic, but we'd like warmer light. It's too stark white in there.

I have read that dimming an LED will not change its color temperature. So dimming the 4000K bulbs will not produce a warmer light, just less light output in the same spectrum. Is this correct?

Should we exchange these for the 2700k lights?

We have undercabinet lighting at the sink and underhood lighting at the stove, so 'task' lighting is covered. And I might put a dimmer in for either scenario just to have the ability to dim if needed.

Thanks for your input.

 

[ForceFed70]

Yeah - don't get color and intensity mixed up. Dimming a lamp should not effect it's color.

Sounds like the warmer colors have less intensity (output) so would be a good 1st step to switch if you'd prefer a warmer color anyway. Then if it's still too bright you'll have to consider investing in a dimmer. 2700k is pretty yellow tho. Might end up going from 1 extreme to another.

 

[bdamico]

Hi everyone,
this is kitchen specific, but still all around lighting related...

I'm outfitting my 225 sq. ft. kitchen with new LED downlights. We're using Nicor's DLR56 line. There are three versions to choose from: 2700K (703 lumens), 3000K (730 lumens), and 4000K (873 lumens). They're all CRI rated to 90.

Right now, we have the 4000k bulbs in and they are too bright for the kitchen. Great for a workspace, but it's like retail space or surgery room in there. I wish my garage were this well lit! So the light output is fantastic, but we'd like warmer light. It's too stark white in there.

I have read that dimming an LED will not change its color temperature. So dimming the 4000K bulbs will not produce a warmer light, just less light output in the same spectrum. Is this correct?

Should we exchange these for the 2700k lights?

We have undercabinet lighting at the sink and underhood lighting at the stove, so 'task' lighting is covered. And I might put a dimmer in for either scenario just to have the ability to dim if needed.

Thanks for your input.

There are new leds that go warmer as they are dimmed to emulate regular bulbs but may not be in the size you're looking at. Going to 2700 will be better than what you have but will probably still be a little cold for you. But trust me, you'll get used to it. Also, do not confuse intensity with color.

 

[Bjm364]

Those lamps that get warmer as they dim are from sylvania and are called sundown series. When LED's first came out, the manufacturers would brag about how the lamps do not change color temperature when dimmed. Now they make you pay extra for it. Laughable.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Hi everyone,
this is kitchen specific, but still all around lighting related...

I'm outfitting my 225 sq. ft. kitchen with new LED downlights. We're using Nicor's DLR56 line. There are three versions to choose from: 2700K (703 lumens), 3000K (730 lumens), and 4000K (873 lumens). They're all CRI rated to 90.

Right now, we have the 4000k bulbs in and they are too bright for the kitchen. Great for a workspace, but it's like retail space or surgery room in there. I wish my garage were this well lit! So the light output is fantastic, but we'd like warmer light. It's too stark white in there.

Hold the 'phone!

You are conflating two entirely different things: Color temperature and brightness.

While it is true that (to some extent anyway) purer "whiter" light tends to be perceived as "brighter" than yellowish off-white, that mostly due to years/decades/lifetimes of being "conditioned" by old-school incandescent lights for which that correlation did somewhat hold. So now, we see the "white" light, and THINK "bright", even if it really isn't all that bright.

So the key question becomes, is it REALLY "too bright" in there? Or are you just not yet accustomed to the cleaner, "whiter" white?

I have read that dimming an LED will not change its color temperature. So dimming the 4000K bulbs will not produce a warmer light, just less light output in the same spectrum. Is this correct?

Well, that depends somewhat on the specific light fixture/LED; but usually, yes.

Should we exchange these for the 2700k lights?

Well, I certainly wouldn't. But then, I happen to like truly white light (or as close to it as I can get).

Besides, per http://nicorlighting.com/catalog/item/DLR56-4000K, your existing lights ARE dimmable. And it would certainly be cheaper to install a decent-quality dimmer control than to replace all those cans. So start there, and see if that "tames" things enough for you to "warm up to" the whiter light (so to speak).

Yeah - don't get color and intensity mixed up. Dimming a lamp should not effect it's color.

Sounds like the warmer colors have less intensity (output) so would be a good 1st step to switch if you'd prefer a warmer color anyway.

I strongly disagree. Not only would that be a MUCH more expensive proposition, the differences in output levels he quoted are not large enough to make a significant difference in the overall perceived brightness level. So that "investment" would surely be at least mostly wasted.

 

[JakeKohl]

I agree that the 4000k lights are too white. I put in 24 LED can lights in my office above my garage and I experimented considerably. The 4000k bulbs just hurt my eyes. I think you'll find that the 2700k's are too yellow. I put in 3000K and am happy with them.

 

[chops101]

I have been installing 3" cans in my just-purchased home, with 7w dimmable LED's, 360lm @3000 kelvin. These are all GU-10 base.

Very impressed with the overall range. Have installed 16 so far in 3 rooms and about to tackle the kitchen next. The kitchen will be a little more work as I will be purging/patching 6" holes left by nine in-ceiling 'heaters'.

 

[The J]

Thanks everyone. I realize I'm lacking some terminology in lighting, sorry for any confusion.

I think both color temperature and brightness are in question with these 4000K units.
It's a light I would be very happy with in my garage, but it's actually exhausting in the kitchen. I was working on cabinets last night and my eyes wanted a 'less intense' light.

I know I've been conditioned by incandescent light output, but a little 'less white' would be nice from these LEDs, and 'less intense' too. So if a 3000K or 2700K will do that right out of the box, it's what I'd prefer.

I guess I will try the dimmer first to see. But if a dimmer set at 75% at all times is the same as the lower 'K' bulb at 100% level, I'd rather just use the lower 'K' bulbs. I could have them on a dimmer too if there's ever a reason to set the mood so to speak.


Jake... maybe the 3000K is a happy medium.

I'm hoping to get some more feedback of 2700K vs. 3000K vs. 4000K.


Thanks again everyone for the great responses.

 

[The J]

To touch upon costs, these were provided by my electrician as part of a larger electrical scope including service upgrade and so on. So any changes won't affect what I've already paid. He suggested a dimmer to reduce brightness.

The dimmer is certainly faster, and therefore cheaper for him than to swap out those LEDs. But I want to be happy with it in the end considering I'm paying someone else for a service, and want this group's consensus before requesting any changes.

 

[ishiboo]

I have the 2700K EcoSmart trims all over the house (4" and 6"), at full brightness they are perfect, dimmed I wish they were actually a bit warmer for mood lighting, but of course as you know they retain the same temperature throughout. If you like the warm look of halogens, you'll like the 2700K lamps.

 

[ishiboo]

Also, the warmer ones are only slightly darker. Brightness depends a lot on your layout - it'll likely still be too bright for you, but that depends on whether your feeling is because the 4000K's are "too harsh" which people sometimes confuse with being much brighter.

I have Insteon dimmers at all switch locations, and on many I have the "on level" set to something other than 100%... so when you hit the switch, they may turn on only to 85% or something similar. Without that they are just too bright. You could get by with one Insteon dimmer and a USB modem to set the on level, and then expand the system as you go... or install a quality LED dimmer and don't turn it up all the way.

At night, my "mood lighting" begins and all the LEDs are set to 10-15%... looks very nice and uses very little energy.

 

[ishiboo]

To touch upon costs, these were provided by my electrician as part of a larger electrical scope including service upgrade and so on. So any changes won't affect what I've already paid. He suggested a dimmer to reduce brightness.

The dimmer is certainly faster, and therefore cheaper for him than to swap out those LEDs. But I want to be happy with it in the end considering I'm paying someone else for a service, and want this group's consensus before requesting any changes.

You'll want a dimmer either way, IMO. Once you have the dimmer, you'll be able to figure out if you want to keep the 4000K's or go with a warmer lamp.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Thanks everyone. I realize I'm lacking some terminology in lighting, sorry for any confusion.

I think both color temperature and brightness are in question with these 4000K units.
It's a light I would be very happy with in my garage, but it's actually exhausting in the kitchen. I was working on cabinets last night and my eyes wanted a 'less intense' light.

This really sounds more like a brightness issue (or just MAYBE an "inappropriate placement" issue) than a color-temperature issue.

I know I've been conditioned by incandescent light output, but a little 'less white' would be nice from these LEDs, and 'less intense' too. So if a 3000K or 2700K will do that right out of the box, it's what I'd prefer.

It MAY be. But you won't know that until you get the brightness itself under control.

I guess I will try the dimmer first to see.

Smart move.

But if a dimmer set at 75% at all times is the same as the lower 'K' bulb at 100% level, I'd rather just use the lower 'K' bulbs.

No. It just doesn't work that way. This is what I was trying to get across when I said you were conflating two different (and in fact, mostly unrelated) issues.

I could have them on a dimmer too if there's ever a reason to set the mood so to speak.

Just because you control some lights with a dimmer control does NOT mean that "Dimmed" necessarily means very low output levels. It is as valid to run that dimmer at 85-95% as it is to run it at 15-25%. It all depends on your needs of the moment.

Jake... maybe the 3000K is a happy medium.

Again , MAYBE. But I would caution you to not rush into this part of it, at least not until you've given the 4000K lamps a fair tryout (WITH their output levels set appropriately). The thing is, regardless of marketing mumbo-jumbo, 4000K is already a fairly "warm" white, in the overall scheme of things. Pure unadulterated daylight, on a bright sunny day with no shadows, tends to be around 5000-5500K. Throw a few clouds into the mix, and you're well above 6000K; step unto the shade of that mighty old oak tree, and we're now closer to 8000K.

You'll want a dimmer either way, IMO. Once you have the dimmer, you'll be able to figure out if you want to keep the 4000K's or go with a warmer lamp.

BINGO!

 

[Bjm364]

If you want "less" light you need to buy lamps that put out less LUMENS/ft.
Now you have color temperature, watts, lumens, dimmers, etc. Good luck.
BTW, use a good quality dimmer or the LED's will dance at low light levels.