LED Conversion Question

[L5wolvesf]

Today I picked up several florescent fixtures to convert to LED (my remaining fixtures are not convertible). The guy who had them told me he had LEDs put up in his shop and I said I’m doing ballast delete LED conversions. His reply is why I posting this.

He said “you can’t” and suggested that they were fire prone, and insurance companies won’t pay if I have a fire. He then also said that our county does not allow that type of conversion to be done. He didn’t seem crazy but didn’t seem like Albert Einstein either. I have 3 fixtures that I have converted and have not had any issues with them.

I’ve done a cursorily online search and didn’t find much except a particular brand that was outside UL specs. I found nothing related to the brand bulbs I’m using (Toggled) or to ballast delete conversions.

So, just to cover another base has anyone here heard of anything like what this guy was saying?

Thank you

 

[Norcal]

If the fixtures have Leviton brand tombstones (lamp holders) then you can’t do it in a code compliant manner because they have instructions saying not to apply line voltage directly to them but I have not found anything from other manufacturers so if they were removed & replaced with another manufacturer, doubtful there would be a problem. Installed a pair of ballast delete LED’s from HD in a pinch & they supplied new tombstones.

 

[cybrdyke]

The guy is misinformed and spreading bad information. They're not "fire prone", that's just a stupid comment. Most are UL listed and that's something that insurance companies look for, and so should you.
I cant speak about your county, but I doubt that his comment is accurate. While it's true that some inspectors like to flex their ego muscles if they have a problem with a particular product, they dont really have a leg to stand on if the product is UL listed and properly installed.
Good luck!
CD

 

[Innovate1]

Your remaining fixtures may be convertible as well. I had some shop lights that have plastic housings that snap together and clearly weren't made to be disassembled. I was able to get to the releases and take the housing apart to bypass the ballast.

 

[CJ7VFR]

Your remaining fixtures may be convertible as well. I had some shop lights that have plastic housings that snap together and clearly weren't made to be disassembled. I was able to get to the releases and take the housing apart to bypass the ballast.

Yes! I had the same type of old shop lights, with the same type of snap in parts on the ends that covered the lamp connectors instead of having the normal tombstone type connectors.

There were small release tabs that I had pry up a bit in order to get the end caps off so that the rest of the light fixture could be taken apart so that the ballasts could be removed.

I actually like those older style of light fixtures because they don't have normal tombstones that are exposed and easily smacked into.

Jim

 

[L5wolvesf]

If the fixtures have Leviton brand tombstones (lamp holders) then you can’t do it in a code compliant manner because they have instructions saying not to apply line voltage directly to them but I have not found anything from other manufacturers so if they were removed & replaced with another manufacturer, doubtful there would be a problem. Installed a pair of ballast delete LED’s from HD in a pinch & they supplied new tombstones.

I checked to see which tombstones I may have; the ones I could see had no name so presumably made by the made of the fixtures. I did not use the new tombstones supplied with the LED bulbs. I also looked at what came with the bulbs – they are Leviton brand.

 

[L5wolvesf]

Your remaining fixtures may be convertible as well. I had some shop lights that have plastic housings that snap together and clearly weren't made to be disassembled. I was able to get to the releases and take the housing apart to bypass the ballast.

It was already determined they are not -

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395182&highlight=Lights+america

 

[L5wolvesf]

The guy is misinformed and spreading bad information. They're not "fire prone", that's just a stupid comment. Most are UL listed and that's something that insurance companies look for, and so should you.
I cant speak about your county, but I doubt that his comment is accurate. While it's true that some inspectors like to flex their ego muscles if they have a problem with a particular product, they dont really have a leg to stand on if the product is UL listed and properly installed.
Good luck!
CD

Just a thought. Could this guy have been told something about shunted vs un-shunted tombstones as part of a sales pitch to get him to buy all new lights?

 

[cybrdyke]

Just a thought. Could this guy have been told something about shunted vs un-shunted tombstones as part of a sales pitch to get him to buy all new lights?

Could be. If you're not a lighting nerd like me, then all of this jargon can get pretty confusing. An unscrupulous sales person would be able to manipulate some folks that way.
CD

 

[13mo]

Just a thought. Could this guy have been told something about shunted vs un-shunted tombstones as part of a sales pitch to get him to buy all new lights?

I wonder if this was said as there is a new NEC section (410.7) which bans "reconditioned" luminaires and lampholders. However, retrofitting luminaires and lampholders using NRTL-listed parts according to their installation instructions is permitted. I am curious if that section was put in there because people were retrofitting fluorescent fixtures with noname Chinese LED tubes without an NRTL listing and having (the to be expected) trouble with them.

 

[Milton Shaw]

If the original tombstones were wired to be in the 120 volt circuit then they should be ok to be wired in ballast bypass use. All of the 2 pin fixtures in my house were circuit interrupters so I used the ballast bypass bulbs and have had no problems since I did mine a year or so ago. I bypassed the ballast and left them in the fixture as none of the trash disposal sites or recycling places will take ballasts. I also did my 8 foot single pin garage lights too.

 

[Firebrick43]

If the fixtures have Leviton brand tombstones (lamp holders) then you can’t do it in a code compliant manner because they have instructions saying not to apply line voltage directly to them but I have not found anything from other manufacturers so if they were removed & replaced with another manufacturer, doubtful there would be a problem. Installed a pair of ballast delete LED’s from HD in a pinch & they supplied new tombstones.

can you provide a source?

These say 600v 660 W

https://ilighting.com/products/levi...rescent-medium-bi-pin-non-shunted-socket.html

 

[cybrdyke]

can you provide a source?

From Leviton's installation guide (See 2nd bullet point):
https://www.leviton.com/en/docs/PK-93480-10-02-0J-W.pdf
CD

 

[L5wolvesf]

These say 600v 660 W

https://ilighting.com/products/levi...rescent-medium-bi-pin-non-shunted-socket.html

Those are what came with the LED bulbs I bought, but I used the tombstones that were already wired in the fixtures.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Basically MODIFYING or ALTERING any UL Listed product is a code violation...... Always has been. The product was tested and approved using the materials that the manufacturer presented to the testing agency.
EXAMPLE! You cut the end off an extension cord and replace it with a new cord cap....... That cord is no longer an UL approved cord because it has now been "modified" from the way it was approved.

BTW! Yeah, I agree that this is a "BS thing" but remember that insurance companies are NOT your friend after you have a fire or accident....... Let’s not forget about the Lawyers who make a living screwing people.

 

[getawheel]

The retrofit lamps are very likely listed, and installed become the fixture basically. They may come with a label to place on the housing to indicate a refit has been completed. Retrofits are legitimately done every day with this type lamp.

 

[CJ7VFR]

...They may come with a label to place on the housing to indicate a refit has been completed. Retrofits are legitimately done every day with this type lamp.

The Halco LED ballast bypass tubes I purchased at Home Depot came with the labels that you are supposed to put over the old labels on the light fixture indicating that the fixture can no longer use fluorescent tubes. The tubes are also UL listed and DLC listed.

I like the Halco tubes because they are double ended and the pins on one end of the tubes are marked with an "L" for the load/line side, and pins on the other end are marked "N" for the neutral side. The two pins on each end are connected together internally, so these tubes can be put into fixtures that have shunted or non-shunted tombstones. And I had both types in my garage so I wanted a single LED tube that would fit each type of fixture and be easy to wire up.

The directions show you how to remove the ballasts and re-wire the tombstones so that there is just one load wire and one neutral wire coming from each tombstone in a one lamp fixture, or both tombstones on each side of the fixture for two lamps.

Here is the instruction sheet that came with the Halco LED bypass tubes showing how it gets wired.

Jim

 

[getawheel]

The Halco LED ballast bypass tubes I purchased at Home Depot came with the labels that you are supposed to put over the old labels on the light fixture indicating that the fixture can no longer use fluorescent tubes. The tubes are also UL listed and DLC listed.

I like the Halco tubes because they are double ended and the pins on one end of the tubes are marked with an "L" for the load/line side, and pins on the other end are marked "N" for the neutral side. The two pins on each end are connected together internally, so these tubes can be put into fixtures that have shunted or non-shunted tombstones. And I had both types in my garage so I wanted a single LED tube that would fit each type of fixture and be easy to wire up.

The directions show you how to remove the ballasts and re-wire the tombstones so that there is just one load wire and one neutral wire coming from each tombstone in a one lamp fixture, or both tombstones on each side of the fixture for two lamps.

Here is the instruction sheet that came with the Halco LED bypass tubes showing how it gets wired.

Jim

Afterwards you still have a 'Listed' fixture. Those tubes are a listed retrofit. Good to go.

 

[CJ7VFR]

Afterwards you still have a 'Listed' fixture. Those tubes are a listed retrofit. Good to go.

Yeah, I didn't really take notice until your post about retro fitting a fixture. That is when I went and looked at the Halco tubes and commented about them.

I like these tubes. They put out much more light than the fluorescents they replaced, they have frosted lenses so they don't cause harsh shadows, they are instant on, even in my unheated garage, and best of all they use less than half the electricity of the fluorescent tubes.

And right now they are only $6.20 a tube, or $62.00 for a box of 10 of them at Home Depot.

Jim

 

[walrus]

The fixture was listed with the original tubes I dont see how its still listed with the led tubes in it. You have to use different tombstones in any rapid start fixture or I suppose remove the shunt.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[cybrdyke]

The fixture was listed with the original tubes I dont see how its still listed with the led tubes in it. You have to use different tombstones in any rapid start fixture or I suppose remove the shunt.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

You're half right and they're half right.
Your half: When you modify a fixture, it's no longer UL. You are correct.
Their half: The product is UL Listed 1598C, which is technically not a "lamp", but a "retrofit kit". The retrofit kit, when properly installed, carries the UL listing.

So the fixture isn't UL, but the retrofit kit is. So, as getawheel said, it's all good.
CD

 

[L5wolvesf]

The fixture was listed with the original tubes I dont see how its still listed with the led tubes in it. You have to use different tombstones in any rapid start fixture or I suppose remove the shunt.

I did not use the different tombstones I used the ones in the fixtures that were already there. I did not change them in any way.

 

[L5wolvesf]

The LED tubes I used have UL marking on the box. BUT, it doesn't say "Approved".

 

[65ranchero]

Try this:


https://www.c3controls.com/white-paper/difference-between-ul-recognized-ul-listed/

 

[a_whale]

<deleted>

 

[CJ7VFR]

The fixture was listed with the original tubes I dont see how its still listed with the led tubes in it. You have to use different tombstones in any rapid start fixture or I suppose remove the shunt.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

If you buy double ended LED tubes, then you can use shunted or non-shunted tomb stones, whichever came in the original fluorescent fixture. There is no need to remove the shunt.

Jim

 

[walrus]

If you buy double ended LED tubes, then you can use shunted or non-shunted tomb stones, whichever came in the original fluorescent fixture. There is no need to remove the shunt.

Jim

Which means you keep original ballast in fixture, if ballast goes bad, tube won't light.

 

[cybrdyke]

Which means you keep original ballast in fixture, if ballast goes bad, tube won't light.

No, he's talking about bypassing the ballast with double-end powered tubes. Cut out the ballast, apply hot to sockets on one end, neutral to the sockets on the other end. This way, it doesn't matter if the sockets are shunted or not.
Throw the ballast away.
CD

 

[walrus]

No, he's talking about bypassing the ballast with double-end powered tubes. Cut out the ballast, apply hot to sockets on one end, neutral to the sockets on the other end. This way, it doesn't matter if the sockets are shunted or not.
Throw the ballast away.
CD

Oh haven't seen those yet, thanks for the qualification.

 

[CJ7VFR]

Oh haven't seen those yet, thanks for the qualification.

No, he's talking about bypassing the ballast with double-end powered tubes. Cut out the ballast, apply hot to sockets on one end, neutral to the sockets on the other end. This way, it doesn't matter if the sockets are shunted or not.
Throw the ballast away.
CD

Yes, I am referring to the ballast bypass type. There are many out there to choose from.

I bought a 10 pack of Halco brand from Home Depot, which are the ones I posted the instruction sheet for. They are double ended 5000K LED direct wire 4 foot tubes.

Here is the link for them. They are currently about $63.00 for a ten pack. That makes them just over 6 bucks per tube. And they can be installed in shunted or non-shunted tomb stones.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Halco-L...ck-T8FR14-850-BYP3-DE-LED10PK-89003/308101924

The great part about the double ended tubes is that if your old fluorescent fixtures are in good shape, and you like them, you can keep them and you don't have to buy new ones. Just do as cybrdyke said. Zip zip and they are done.

Jim