LED light bulbs?

[dfiler2]

I'm putting some lighting in the cold storage area of my shop. The fixtures are like the one pictured except there are 3 bulb sockets instead of 2. There are 7 of those and they are about 15’ up. The building is a Quonset style and the area where the lights are, is 40’ at the bottom x 56’ long with an 18’ ceiling. I don’t work in that area very often, the lighting is mainly so I can see to put things away or grab something to bring into the heated area in the winter. In the summer the 12 x 12 front door is always open and there is no need for lights. I would like to use LED bulbs but after looking for some I am confused by the huge price variance. What I’ve seen is 22-25 watt LED bulbs, PAR 38, and prices range anywhere from $8 to $39 each. I like the idea of a LED's for longevity and efficiency.
Just wondering if anyone else has had any experience with LED spotlights or should I just look at large incandescent spot light bulbs?.

 

[MagicMarker]

I've never seen a Par 38 for $8... The lowest I've seen are in the mid $20 range. I wanted them for my light at the garage/ driveway approach.

I couldn't justify to myself spending $50 on bulbs that I rarely use. So I just bought incandescents.

 

[aar0s]

We have some max light led floods at work that are subsidized buy the local electric utility and are around 10 bucks. I've used some in our shed and they work fine. See if any place in your area is working with the local utility on a program like this. As far as experience with led bulbs, I haven't had to change one in nearly three years and most are in fixtures that are constant on places.

 

[cybrdyke]

LED PAR38 lamps do come in a large variety of configurations and they come from cheap junk to quality stuff. The price differences you see are a result of how they are built and what components are being used.
The no-name junk manufacturers will use cheaper low quality diodes and drivers. The good manufacturers will use high quality stuff. The difference that YOU can see is the quality of the light, flicker, dimmability, and how much it maintains it's lumen output over time.
You can spot the older technology by the metal body with heat fins, and multiple LED dots on the front of the lens. The newer technology will have a smooth white body with one source of LEDs in the center of the lens.
You can get the new technology at a good price if you look around. Home Depot usually has the most current stuff. Just get a brand name and you'll be safe. If you never heard of the manufacturer before...keep away.
Good luck
CD

 

[dfiler2]

I've never seen a Par 38 for $8... The lowest I've seen are in the mid $20 range. I wanted them for my light at the garage/ driveway approach.

I couldn't justify to myself spending $50 on bulbs that I rarely use. So I just bought incandescents.

You could be right, the $8 bulbs could have been BR. I'm still not sure I understand the difference between PAR (parabolic anodized reflector) and BR (bulged reflector) and what that means to the light I would get from them. I am considering halogens but am worried about the heat they produce.

 

[dfiler2]

We have some max light led floods at work that are subsidized buy the local electric utility and are around 10 bucks. I've used some in our shed and they work fine. See if any place in your area is working with the local utility on a program like this. As far as experience with led bulbs, I haven't had to change one in nearly three years and most are in fixtures that are constant on places.

Good idea, I sent a note to my poco last night, I didn't see any obvious rebates on their website but they did say they have many rebates that might not be listed. I checked out the bulbs you mentioned and it seems they are a good price, I may go that route.

 

[dfiler2]

LED PAR38 lamps do come in a large variety of configurations and they come from cheap junk to quality stuff. The price differences you see are a result of how they are built and what components are being used.
The no-name junk manufacturers will use cheaper low quality diodes and drivers. The good manufacturers will use high quality stuff. The difference that YOU can see is the quality of the light, flicker, dimmability, and how much it maintains it's lumen output over time.
You can spot the older technology by the metal body with heat fins, and multiple LED dots on the front of the lens. The newer technology will have a smooth white body with one source of LEDs in the center of the lens.
You can get the new technology at a good price if you look around. Home Depot usually has the most current stuff. Just get a brand name and you'll be safe. If you never heard of the manufacturer before...keep away.
Good luck
CD

Thanks, that's some good info. I did notice the difference in the looks and you're right, the cheapest ones have those cooling fins. That is my biggest concern in choosing LEDs, that I would end up with something that didn't work well or last very long. I think i need to sit down and figure out the cost of operation of each and then estimate the amount of time they would be on and see if it makes sense. Thanks again

 

[bwringer]

LEDs produce very little heat, and LED bulbs are far stronger than incandescent bulbs.

Even if they're not used very often, these advantages can tip the scale towards LEDs -- they create less of a hazard and won't smoke and stink if they get dusty, and they're a lot less likely to get damaged or burn out in an awkward location.

 

[Platonic Solid]

LEDs produce very little heat, and LED bulbs are far stronger than incandescent bulbs.

Even if they're not used very often, these advantages can tip the scale towards LEDs -- they create less of a hazard and won't smoke and stink if they get dusty, and they're a lot less likely to get damaged or burn out in an awkward location.

It’s more accurate to state that LEDs are more efficient, providing more lumens per watt than incandescent. Total heat generated (BTU) is proportional to Wattage used.

A 60W incandescent A19 provides 800 lumens = 13 L/W
Total heat generated by a 60W bulb = 205 BTU/hr (60W x 3.412)

An 8.5W LED A19 that produces 800 lumens = 94 L/W
Total heat generated by an 8.5W bulb = 29 BTU/hr (8.5W x 3.412)

How hot the surface temperature gets varies by design. High output LEDs can get extremely hot.

As ambient temperature increases, LED efficiency and life span decreases. This does not necessarily mean you get less lumen output at higher ambient temperatures. You may actually get more lumen output as the driver components heat up. This can cause higher Wattage consumption, reducing LED and driver life.

 

[Trey T]

In my area, eletricity is very cheap, almost as cheap as NG. I've done energy consumption and cost recovery analysis on CFL and LED for outdoor; I concluded that if you use it frequent enough (from dawn to dusk), you'll recover your money w/in 6-12 months.

12months isn't a long time at all, and from that point on, I only buy LED bulbs, regardless of use. Based on my analysis, incandenscent is an expensive investment for my area.

 

[My Old Tools]

Costco has the Feit LED bulbs in PAR 38 and PAR 30, and BR LEDs. They are all in the $15-20 range. As halogens die around our house they all get replaced with LED bulbs. Less heat, more light, and less overall electricity used. We may never make up the difference, but I won't be forever changing bulbs in a 12 foot ceiling either. I also used the Costco LED 4' shop lights when I lit my shop.

 

[dfiler2]

Thanks for the input guys. After doing the research and using a couple of different LED Bulb Savings Calculators it is really a no brainer. Even if I only have the lights on 3 hours a day the break even point comes in about in about 19 months. I need 16 bulbs so the cost in energy alone saves me about $220 a year I used several different calculators and they were all close, one even told me it was a 360% ROI, I figure if I buy enough LED bulbs I can retire early.

 

[jeopardy98]

So I want to piggy back onto this. I'm currently building and looking to put led in just about every fixture I use in the house. My workshop lights will be t8 florescent but everything else should be led. I'm having a hard time picking my outdoor motion activated flood lights. I see that I can use up to a 120w incandescent but I see a lot of 90w led par38 equivalents. Will 90w equivalent led's be enough or should I go with the brightest I can get? Also can anyone suggest a good place to buy them? I will need 4 bulbs. Thanks in advance.

 

[cybrdyke]

So I want to piggy back onto this. I'm currently building and looking to put led in just about every fixture I use in the house. My workshop lights will be t8 florescent but everything else should be led. I'm having a hard time picking my outdoor motion activated flood lights. I see that I can use up to a 120w incandescent but I see a lot of 90w led par38 equivalents. Will 90w equivalent led's be enough or should I go with the brightest I can get? Also can anyone suggest a good place to buy them? I will need 4 bulbs. Thanks in advance.

there are lots of LED PAR38's out there, but very few of them are OUTDOOR rated. Home Depot carries the latest Philips version...white body, 15 watts, rated to be outdoors in the weather.
CD

 

[jeopardy98]

Any input on 90w vs 120w?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart...ight-Bulb-ECS-38-120WE-CW-FL-120-TP/204632231

Does that one look good? I want 5000K par38 outdoor rated leds and this seems to be all I can find at all that meets those specs. Are there other options? I didn't see any Philips.

 

[ddawg16]

It’s more accurate to state that LEDs are more efficient, providing more lumens per watt than incandescent. Total heat generated (BTU) is proportional to Wattage used.

A 60W incandescent A19 provides 800 lumens = 13 L/W
Total heat generated by a 60W bulb = 205 BTU/hr (60W x 3.412)

An 8.5W LED A19 that produces 800 lumens = 94 L/W
Total heat generated by an 8.5W bulb = 29 BTU/hr (8.5W x 3.412)

How hot the surface temperature gets varies by design. High output LEDs can get extremely hot.

As ambient temperature increases, LED efficiency and life span decreases. This does not necessarily mean you get less lumen output at higher ambient temperatures. You may actually get more lumen output as the driver components heat up. This can cause higher Wattage consumption, reducing LED and driver life.

Thank God, a post void of emotion and opinion. Just plain facts...true facts.

Now...for the 'except'.

CFL's are so cheap now which makes them a viable option...in the meantime, LED technology improves.

Except....I think we are approaching the tilt point....that is the point where the current batch of LED's have the payback that is better than CFL's. But this depends on 'specials'...

My problem? I have a **** load of CFL's in my house and garage.....and they just keep on going and going. I've tossed all incandescent bulbs. It's been a long time since I've replaced a CFL. In the 15 years I've been in my house and using CFL's, I've replace maybe 4 or 5. 2 of which I broke.

 

[finn]

Thank God, a post void of emotion and opinion. Just plain facts...true facts.

Now...for the 'except'.

CFL's are so cheap now which makes them a viable option...in the meantime, LED technology improves.

Except....I think we are approaching the tilt point....that is the point where the current batch of LED's have the payback that is better than CFL's. But this depends on 'specials'...

My problem? I have a **** load of CFL's in my house and garage.....and they just keep on going and going. I've tossed all incandescent bulbs. It's been a long time since I've replaced a CFL. In the 15 years I've been in my house and using CFL's, I've replace maybe 4 or 5. 2 of which I broke.

I wonder where all the cfl haters / incandescent bulb hoarders who were ranting on this site in years past two have gone?

 

[ddawg16]

I wonder where all the cfl haters / incandescent bulb hoarders who were ranting on this site in years past two have gone?

All the incandescent bulbs in their house burned out, they can't buy any more so now it's too dark to find the computer.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

North Western Minnesota, where it gets to -30F .. I am sticking with low cost incandescent bulbs in my 24X30 tractor shed.. I have four double fixtures, like you have pictured, mounted about 15' high in the roof peak.. So I am using eight 100watt bulbs..
One fixture is wired into a motion detector-combination switch, so when I open the 16' slider door and walk in, I don't have to look for a lite switch.. The other three fixtures have their own switch.. I am on the Wild Rice Electric system based in Mahnomen, Mn.
The kilowatt charge is about 11cents with the add on charges... So if I go out in the tractor shed and turn all the lights on for an hour; it will cost me 8.8cents... If I spent 100 hours per year out there; my light bill would amount to $8.80.. My usual visits out there are 15 minutes or less, and I seldom turn all 800watts of lighting on..

This is one application where the goode olde fashioned incandescent bulbs have proven to be the winner for me.... I stocked up on a lifetime supply of my favorite 100 watters while they were on the closeout prices.. The cfl bulbs, in addition to being slow to no-glow in cold weather, cost more... I like the led bulbs, but this is one application where I could never cost justify them.....

I will bet a box of sharp pencils that your figures will be similar.

 

[jeopardy98]

Anyone have any comparisons on 90w vs 120w? The 120 are really hard to find and MUCH more expensive. Outdoor par38 specifically.

 

[dfiler2]

North Western Minnesota, where it gets to -30F .. I am sticking with low cost incandescent bulbs in my 24X30 tractor shed.. I have four double fixtures, like you have pictured, mounted about 15' high in the roof peak.. So I am using eight 100watt bulbs..
One fixture is wired into a motion detector-combination switch, so when I open the 16' slider door and walk in, I don't have to look for a lite switch.. The other three fixtures have their own switch.. I am on the Wild Rice Electric system based in Mahnomen, Mn.
The kilowatt charge is about 11cents with the add on charges... So if I go out in the tractor shed and turn all the lights on for an hour; it will cost me 8.8cents... If I spent 100 hours per year out there; my light bill would amount to $8.80.. My usual visits out there are 15 minutes or less, and I seldom turn all 800watts of lighting on..

This is one application where the goode olde fashioned incandescent bulbs have proven to be the winner for me.... I stocked up on a lifetime supply of my favorite 100 watters while they were on the closeout prices.. The cfl bulbs, in addition to being slow to no-glow in cold weather, cost more... I like the led bulbs, but this is one application where I could never cost justify them.....

I will bet a box of sharp pencils that your figures will be similar.

I have been rethinking this, when I did the numbers on the LED cost/savings calculator I put in 3 hrs per day, which will probably be close in the winter. I need to redo those numbers and see how it works out. I'm on Ottertail and I think our power is a little less than that. Although even if I made the bet settling up wouldn't be a big deal as I do come through Erskine every once in a while and if you fish you probably drive through Greenbush every now and then.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

I have been rethinking this, when I did the numbers on the LED cost/savings calculator I put in 3 hrs per day, which will probably be close in the winter. I need to redo those numbers and see how it works out. I'm on Ottertail and I think our power is a little less than that. Although even if I made the bet settling up wouldn't be a big deal as I do come through Erskine every once in a while and if you fish you probably drive through Greenbush every now and then.

Greenbush is canola country, so I have hauled many truckloads from that area.. Peaceful country with friendly residents..

 

[dfiler2]

Anyone have any comparisons on 90w vs 120w? The 120 are really hard to find and MUCH more expensive. Outdoor par38 specifically.

That's one of the things I would like to know also, I'm assuming you are wanting to compare LED 90W equivalent to LED 120w equivalent.

 

[BruceMc]

Anyone have any comparisons on 90w vs 120w? The 120 are really hard to find and MUCH more expensive. Outdoor par38 specifically.

Lowes has them in both 3000k & 5000k -

http://www.lowes.com/pd_592650-3-79088___?productId=50225189&pl=1&Ntt=sylvania+led+flood

I was in there yesterday, vacillating between buying the 90 and 120. Ultimately bought 3 of the 90s simply for the price difference.

 

[jeopardy98]

That's one of the things I would like to know also, I'm assuming you are wanting to compare LED 90W equivalent to LED 120w equivalent.

Yes of course.

 

[dfiler2]

These look interesting,

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RMK05Y2/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[jeopardy98]

For that price I might consider them. I'd rather have 90w 5000k honestly though.

 

[cybrdyke]

I didn't see any Philips.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-100W-Equivalent-Daylight-5000K-PAR38-Dimmable-LED-Flood-Light-Bulb-435016/205213868

 

[cybrdyke]

That's one of the things I would like to know also, I'm assuming you are wanting to compare LED 90W equivalent to LED 120w equivalent.

"Equivalent" might not mean what you think it does. To do comparisons with LED lamps, you should compare lumens. Since there are so many different varieties of incandescent PAR38 lamps, the lumens can vary...even between lamps of the same wattage.
120w incandescent PAR lamps range from 1700 to 2000 lumens.
90w incandescent PAR lamps range from 900 to 1300 lumens.

Dont necessarily take the word of the marketing department of the lamp manufacturer when they say "100 watt equivalent". They might be using other criteria like center beam candle power, or candela, to create the appearance of equivalency. None of these things are important for your outdoor use. For your application, just compare lumens.
Good luck,
CD

 

[Fishplate]

This is one application where the goode olde fashioned incandescent bulbs have proven to be the winner for me.... I like the led bulbs, but this is one application where I could never cost justify them.....

Well thought out... The only additional consideration for me would be is how often I have to drag out the 14' stepladder to change incandescents vs. the lifespan of an LED lamp.

I'd rather pay a bit more to avoid relamping in difficult places.

 

[CJ7VFR]

I have a **** load of CFL's in my house and garage.....and they just keep on going and going. I've tossed all incandescent bulbs. It's been a long time since I've replaced a CFL. In the 15 years I've been in my house and using CFL's, I've replace maybe 4 or 5. 2 of which I broke.

Same with me. I moved into my house 5 years ago, and I replaced all the lights with CFL's.

5 years ago, there weren't many LED bulbs around, and even if you could find them, they were VERY expensive! Something like 30 bucks a bulb or more. The technology was just coming online, and the price showed that.

So I went with the CFL's. I bought name brand ones in packs at Sam's Club so they worked out to just a few dollars apiece.

There are dimmable ones I have in my kitchen spot lights. There are 40, 60 and 100 watt equivalents in all my lamps and other light fixtures in the house. And my garage and basement has all T8 four footers.

In the 5 years since I have lived here, I have not had to replace a single bulb except for a few of the T8's in the garage. None of the bulbs in the house have gone out yet, and if they do, I have a box of replacement CFL's to put up in their place.

One place the CFL's don't work good is in the outdoor motion sensor lights I have. They take too long to warm up and don't produce enough light by the time they shut back off. Especially in the winter.

In this case, I have incandescent flood lights in them. But when those go, I will put new LED flood lights in them because LED's are instant on like the old incandescent versions, and they provide plenty of light right away.

Jim

 

[Squankum]

Well thought out... The only additional consideration for me would be is how often I have to drag out the 14' stepladder to change incandescents vs. the lifespan of an LED lamp.

I'd rather pay a bit more to avoid relamping in difficult places.

This is GJ, so I would be remiss if I did not point that there's a special tool for that.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bayco-11...r-Kit-with-Attachments-CE-600SDLB12/100354521



.

 

[dfiler2]

Not sure why but my experience with CFL's has been terrible, for longevity and the quality of light and don't even think of putting one outside here. Maybe it was the quality or maybe it's the power system here. I have had good luck with LEDs, however, I think I put the first one in the house here about a year ago. I would be open to trying some 100-120w CFLs if they are available in a spotlight style.

 

[BMack37]

Same with me. I moved into my house 5 years ago, and I replaced all the lights with CFL's.

5 years ago, there weren't many LED bulbs around, and even if you could find them, they were VERY expensive! Something like 30 bucks a bulb or more. The technology was just coming online, and the price showed that.

So I went with the CFL's. I bought name brand ones in packs at Sam's Club so they worked out to just a few dollars apiece.

There are dimmable ones I have in my kitchen spot lights. There are 40, 60 and 100 watt equivalents in all my lamps and other light fixtures in the house. And my garage and basement has all T8 four footers.

In the 5 years since I have lived here, I have not had to replace a single bulb except for a few of the T8's in the garage. None of the bulbs in the house have gone out yet, and if they do, I have a box of replacement CFL's to put up in their place.

One place the CFL's don't work good is in the outdoor motion sensor lights I have. They take too long to warm up and don't produce enough light by the time they shut back off. Especially in the winter.

In this case, I have incandescent flood lights in them. But when those go, I will put new LED flood lights in them because LED's are instant on like the old incandescent versions, and they provide plenty of light right away.

Jim

Same as both of you guys, they just keep going. I recently picked up some LED bulbs because my Walmart only had warm tinted CFLs and the only "daylight" bulbs they had were LEDs...I've been pretty happy with them, I went with the Great Value instead of the GE because it appears that GE is the OEM for the Great Value LEDs. I expected the LEDs to be hotter but they are cool to the touch on the bulb, they're hot as hell on the metal base.

 

[miner]

Not sure why but my experience with CFL's has been terrible, for longevity and the quality of light and don't even think of putting one outside here. Maybe it was the quality or maybe it's the power system here. I have had good luck with LEDs, however, I think I put the first one in the house here about a year ago. I would be open to trying some 100-120w CFLs if they are available in a spotlight style.

Same here. I seem to have to replace CFLs every 2 years or so. Maybe I am buying the knock-off el-chepo brands that don't last?

 

[rick carpenter]

We found that CFLs were negatively affected by poor quality electric service where we live. We replaced incans with CFLs throughout the house to be green when they first came out, but they burned out faster than the incans ever did. We've started to go to LEDs, outside first, then inside. No problems with LEDs coping with poor electric, just get the right temperature.

 

[Norcal]

To the OP, if those lights are only going to be used for short periods there will be not much if any savings if CFL's, or LED's are used, PAR halogen floods would be just fine, but if they are going to be used a lot or for long periods, then CFL's may be the biggest bang for the buck, LED's are getting better and cheaper, just wait for some deals to appear & swap out to LED.

 

[dfiler2]

Thanks Norcal, I think you and BDT have me convinced to wait on the LEDs. My decision was down to these two choices:

Halogen

LED

I ran those numbers through this calculator using a 1 hour per day average. I had used 3 hrs at first but after re-thinking that and realizing I don't need any lighting for most of the summer I decide to use 1 hr/day. The comparison shows a 5 year 5 month break even point and by that time I'm guessing the cost and quality of LEDs will have improved.

My only concern now is the heat generated by Halogen bulbs. Here is a poor picture of where the lights are located taken last spring. I ran 3/4 EMT about 2' down from where you see the white flat ceiling start and put 5 3 bulb fixtures in spread evenly along the 56'. As you can see the building is a quonset style, it was originally built as a theater and is steel framed with 1x4 wood purlins on the inside and 16" x 48" buffalo board panels attached to those. The bulbs would be about 18" away from the buffalo board material. Any opinions on whether I should be concerned about the heat being generated?