LED lighting plan improvement

[Wrigley]

I have received a lot of good information here. I have attempted to run my own layout with an older version of Dialux. I am going to post my results here and ask for feedback on how to improve it. This is my detached garage. It is 30'x34'x12'. I am planning to use this LED. https://www.lightup.com/2ft-led-lin...200w-equiv-dimmable-10400-lumens-lumegen.html.

I am a hobbyist doing things such as woodworking, my own auto repair and maintenance and some light welding. The west side of plan is where my bench will be and possibly a second bench on the north wall. The east bay has a boat parked in this area but hopefully will get that sold this spring so that will open up but will still be mainly used for parking.

I did not run this as a symmetrical plan. Basically to try to avoid the garage door rails and the stairs. I should also mention my stairs are not actually symmetrical either but could not find a way to alter their layout at least with the version of Dialux I have downloaded. The upper portion actually extends out a little further than the bottom. The two garage doors are 9 wide 10 tall. Ceilings are 12'.

I have run this with 4 lights per row by the results seem a little overkill. I am also questioning whether I have the east and west lights too close to the wall possibly causing glare. I am getting close to roughing in the electrical boxes soon so feedback would be appreciated. I am attaching the Dialux report. Let me know if you need additional information that I have forgot.

 

[Wrigley]

I could not get the pdf version of Dialux to import? It said the file size was too large. I someone has suggestion on how to do that let me know. Thanks.

Sorry the picture is really small as well. It looked fine when I posted it. Any help with getting the proper information to post, please..

Edit: Well, just updated with another but it is still pretty small...

 

[Platonic Solid]

We learned from climb.on's thread (link) that those fixtures shouldn't be any closer than 4ft from fixture center to wall. Looks to me that you're a little closer than that at 3'8". Not the end of the world if that's what works best for your situation. What I find more interesting is you have a 30 x 34 space and chose a 4x3 fixture arrangement rather than 3x4. Again, that can work if that's what you need to do to get things to fit. You'd get slightly more even light distribution with a 3x4 arrangement.

 

[Wrigley]

We learned from climb.on's thread (link) that those fixtures shouldn't be any closer than 4ft from fixture center to wall. Looks to me that you're a little closer than that at 3'8". Not the end of the world if that's what works best for your situation. What I find more interesting is you have a 30 x 34 space and chose a 4x3 fixture arrangement rather than 3x4. Again, that can work if that's what you need to do to get things to fit. You'd get slightly more even light distribution with a 3x4 arrangement.

OK thanks. I will plug that in when I get home. I think when I did that, "forgive me I am going off of memory" I was getting like 110 FC at workplane. Maybe that was the 4x4 arrangement. Sorry I will have to confirm this when I get home and can play around with the tool. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Wrigley]

We learned from climb.on's thread (link) that those fixtures shouldn't be any closer than 4ft from fixture center to wall. Looks to me that you're a little closer than that at 3'8". Not the end of the world if that's what works best for your situation. What I find more interesting is you have a 30 x 34 space and chose a 4x3 fixture arrangement rather than 3x4. Again, that can work if that's what you need to do to get things to fit. You'd get slightly more even light distribution with a 3x4 arrangement.

Here is an update with 3x4 as suggested. I should mention that I also manipulated the stairs to match the upper 1/2 of the stairs. I think for lighting this measurement is more important than the bottom? My bottom stairs measure 11.5' from the outside wall, the upper portion come out 14.5" to meet the celling. I am surprised the software does not have a feature to let a person manipulate this? I would like more light on the west wall and also going to try to get more on the North wall. Any suggestions let me know.
Also, should I be thinking about rotating these 90 or leave as is?
Thanks

 

[Platonic Solid]

It's been too long since I've used Dialux 4. Dialux Evo may have more community support for stock and user created online objects. I've downloaded so many I'm not sure what came stock with the program anymore.

Fixture rotation is fine as is.

 

[Wrigley]

Here is the latest. Any glaring mistakes? The stairs will be open btw.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Do you have a picture of the stairs area?

 

[Wrigley]

Here are a couple. Excuse the mess.

Edit: not sure why the pics are sideways and the other upside down?
Edit: they are there in right orientation now, one is thumbnail the other is down below.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Boy, that staircase really is an annoying obstruction. If your walls and ceiling are remaining unfinished wood, then change the surface reflectance in Dialux to 20% for both. Since unpainted wood walls have much lower reflectance, you can move fixtures a little closer than 4ft.

 

[Wrigley]

Boy, that staircase really is an annoying obstruction. If your walls and ceiling are remaining unfinished wood, then change the surface reflectance in Dialux to 20% for both. Since unpainted wood walls have much lower reflectance, you can move fixtures a little closer than 4ft.

The walls and ceiling will be drywalled and so will the bottom of the top section of the stair, all painted white. I was not planning to paint the stair treads but would probably look better painted. The 2x4 railing is just temporary until I get the other stuff finished. Actually the one picture shows my lone 80 watt fixture peaking through at the top of the pic, so that would actually be the fixture and I think it is roughly 5 ft from the stair in that pic and approximately 6 to 7’from the north wall. It is also the only light on in the space.

 

[cybrdyke]

I recommend going with the 10 fixture layout, not the 11. I would add a stairwell fixture to the ceiling above the landing in the stairwell. Sensor it if you want to (some come with sensor built in). Something between 3000 and 5000 lumens. You already have enough light elsewhere and the 11th fixture isn't accomplishing much.
Good luck,
CD

 

[Wrigley]

I recommend going with the 10 fixture layout, not the 11. I would add a stairwell fixture to the ceiling above the landing in the stairwell. Sensor it if you want to (some come with sensor built in). Something between 3000 and 5000 lumens. You already have enough light elsewhere and the 11th fixture isn't accomplishing much.
Good luck,
CD

Yes I need to do something in the stairwell but because I wanted to save as much floor space as possible I made a short run for the bottom section of stairs with a little more aggressive 7.5" rise in 11" run and at the landing I have a clearance from landing to ceiling of 6'4". Once I turn and go up the ceiling will be cathedral and have more space there but not alot. Its about 7'6" from first stair to ceiling and at top comes down to about 86" where there will be an insulated door. Not that it matters but the top section of stairs is 6.5" rise in 11" run. Honestly I was planning on just throwing a couple of incandescent fixtures there with a switch at the bottom since it will not be on very often. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Wrigley]

Any additional thoughts? I am planning to run wire and boxes this weekend. I appreciate the feedback. You guys have a ton of experience in this, I don't. I guess at looking at the ones I drew up looking at the ISO lines the better result looks like the first one with 11 fixtures versus the 2nd with the 10 fixtures. Since I am just learning is there more I need to be considering. From what I have been looking at in the lighting section, I thought that was what a person should try to be accomplishing but I could be completely off base. I appreciate what you guys do on here and picked up a lot. Just trying to get educated and make a good informed decision. Thanks

 

[Wrigley]

This is what I am going to go with. I thought about this for too long and just need to get it done. The stairway has been a pain in the **** and in previous posts I forgot to add in my big maxx heater. The heater will be dropped down so I don't think heat will be a problem. Let me know if you think otherwise. The heater will be down 2.5' from the lights but it will create another shadow. In the end this may be more light than I need but I will spend most of my time on the west and north wall at a couple of benches so I wanted to make sure to have as much light there as I could. These will be on 0-10 v dimmers so I can always lower the light output. I did not want to let the cost of one or two fixtures make the difference here.

 

[DaDuck]

I have found that no matter how much planning you do....nothing is better than (temporarily) hanging a couple fixtures and see how the lighting is in the work area.

I just picked up some 4 Ft, LED Shop Lights for 24.99 each.

4500Lumens!!!!!

Buy 2 and hang'em up in the middle of the shop and go from there.

Dave

 

[Wrigley]

Well shoot. I just put in an order for these and they are telling me they are now backordered until March. It made no mention of this on the site. I really do not want to wait that long. The alternative they suggested is a 110 Watt 14,300 lumen linear high bay. I know I will need to rerun this in Dialux. My main question will this be too much in terms of glare for my 12 foot ceiling finished in drywall shop? Thoughts? Any other suggestions for an alternate fixture? I am sure spacing will be different once I have a chance to run this tonight. Platonic Solid will the same ies file be suitable with this alternative by changing the wattage and lumen.

Thanks

 

[Platonic Solid]

The beam spread and fixture spacing criteria doesn't change. Only the illuminance changes, which will be f'n bright. Better plan on using the 0-10VDC dimming feature or just wait till March. Should be able to get away with 10 fixtures either way.

 

[Wrigley]

The beam spread and fixture spacing criteria doesn't change. Only the illuminance changes, which will be f'n bright. Better plan on using the 0-10VDC dimming feature or just wait till March. Should be able to get away with 10 fixtures either way.

Yes, I ordered 4 of their dimmers. I had about 5 minutes at lunch so I could not play around with it for very long but I did drop in the 14300 lumens and used 93 fc as the target and the recommended layout came out to a 3x3 pattern. This of course did not delete the one in the stair area.
So, when you say placement should not change I am confused? Maybe I have been going about this wrong. I have been placing the fixture then running the output to see the summary page which shows the fc spread on the workplane. After seeing that adjusting spacing to try to even it out. Am I wrong in my thinking. I appreciate your thoughts as I am learning as I go.

Thanks

 

[Platonic Solid]

You're not wrong, but keep spacing criteria in mind. Use 1.25 as the spacing criteria. Yeah, I know what you're thinking = (WTF does that mean?). Spacing criteria is maximum distance between fixtures to get even illumination. 1.25 is a multiplier based on mounting height minus workplane. Thus 12' mtg - 2.5' workplane = 9.5' x 1.25 spacing criteria = 11.9' max center to center fixture spacing.

Going from 10,400lm fixtures to 14,300lm fixtures does not change spacing criteria. If you've achieved even illumination with your current layout using 10,400lm fixtures, it will remain just as even with the same layout using 14,300lm fixtures. You just have a lot more light.

The misconception is that you can use fewer high lumen fixtures instead of more low lumen fixtures to save money - and you can, but risk uneven illumination, shadows and glare.

 

[Wrigley]

You're not wrong, but keep spacing criteria in mind. Use 1.25 as the spacing criteria. Yeah, I know what you're thinking = (WTF does that mean?). Spacing criteria is maximum distance between fixtures to get even illumination. 1.25 is a multiplier based on mounting height minus workplane. Thus 12' mtg - 2.5' workplane = 9.5' x 1.25 spacing criteria = 11.9' max center to center fixture spacing.

Going from 10,400lm fixtures to 14,300lm fixtures does not change spacing criteria. If you've achieved even illumination with your current layout using 10,400lm fixtures, it will remain just as even with the same layout using 14,300lm fixtures. You just have a lot more light.

The misconception is that you can use fewer high lumen fixtures instead of more low lumen fixtures to save money - and you can, but risk uneven illumination, shadows and glare.

For the most part yes that makes sense. Shadows I get, the more fixtures you have in more locations will produce less shadows.
Glare? In another post you wrote: "As far as glare on the walls from high output fixtures being too close to the walls, there is no universal consensus. I try to keep the fc on walls no higher than 3x mean workplane. " I thought I understood this statement but now that I am analyzing it I realize I do not. The part I don't understand is at what height of the wall are you referring to?
And finally the illumination part. When I analyze something I try to break it down into smaller easier to understand parts. I picture illumination in its simplest form as a single beam of light. It hits the floor bounces to the wall then maybe to the celling or wherever the geometry takes it. If the beam of light is stronger I would think it would travel and bounce around a lot more creating more illumination and thus letting you space things out more. Maybe that is exactly what you meant in your post above. Meaning you can space out more but this will have a negative effect on shadows. Is that a true statement?
So to sum up I get shadows am unclear on glare and think I just made your case on illumination in layman's terms? I appreciate your thoughts on this.
Thanks

 

[Platonic Solid]

Glare is subjective. Any light in your standard field of view, whether it be direct from the fixture or reflected off an object, that makes your eyes uncomfortable is glare. The bigger the contrast in your field of view, the more uncomfortable it is. The reason it’s subjective is that what we’re really talking about is pupil dilation and discomfort/pain threshold.

You want to keep the max/min illuminance ratio to no more than 3.0. (It’s only realistic to do this in an empty room). I apply the same logic to reflected glare.

Now for light intensity from similar fixtures – higher intensity light doesn’t travel farther, it generates more heat. That said, you will get more usable light on subsequent bounces.

100fc bouncing off a 70% reflectance ceiling = 70fc bouncing off a 50% wall = 35fc bouncing off a 20% floor = 7fc.

200fc bouncing off a 70% reflectance ceiling = 140fc bouncing off a 50% wall = 70fc bouncing off a 20% floor = 14fc.

 

[Wrigley]

Now considering the 2x4 edge lit panels at 9000 lumens from lightup; The14300 lumen high bay created 126 fc average so that is out I think. I need to call light up this morning. I really don’t want to wait u til March. I also tried dropping in the 1x4 edge lit fixture but could not find An ies file through lithonia site, anyone find a good ies file for that one? The dimension of the ies files say 1x4 but the dimension in files I’ve found are 2x2. These are really close to the north and south walls. Should I consider changing placement or will this type of fixture be fine that close?

Thanks

 

[Platonic Solid]

Like I've said in other posts, Lithonia's IES file are sketchy. See this post:

Usually the first time Dialux opens a new IES file that isn't complete (as most Lithonia files aren't), it comes up with a dialog box where you have the option of entering the fixture size and lens size (aka: luminous opening). There is a check box for round which obviously shouldn't be checked. Try renaming a copy of your chosen IES file and then open in Dialux to see if it gives you the "new file has issues" dialog box.

 

[Wrigley]

Like I've said in other posts, Lithonia's IES file are sketchy. See this post:

Thanks for the reply, I was editing my post when you responded. How does the 2x4 look to you? I am concerned it way be a little close to the North ans South wall.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Depends what it looks like on the walls. I don't have time to recreate your layout to see it. Should put some cars in there and look at that also. I would still try a 2x2 edge lit layout.

 

[Wrigley]

Well my project is on hold unless I can find another supplier at a comparable cost. Lightup is sold out of everything that I would be interested in. Tried 2x2 flat panel at 5000lm 2x4 flat panel at 9000lm and they are out of the 10400 lm high bays as well. Explanation was year end rush. I will keep looking. If you have suggestions let me know.

Thanks

 

[Platonic Solid]

Try all the distributors linked on post 1 of the best light fixture thread.