LED Lights

[67camaro02]

Anybody use or converted to the LED tube lights? They look to be VERY expensive, but wondering if they are worth it between energy savings and longevity of life.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Their price will eventually come down, but for now I'd say the payback is going to be pretty long. They're also still working on the color of the lighting, but they've made a lot of improvements in that area as well.

 

[kbs2244]

For stationary use the ROI just is not there.

They are popular on trucks and trailers because they are more rugged and run cooler.
That way they don't explode when some guys backs his boat trailer into the water with the breaks on.
(You are supposed to unhook the lights before you do that.)

 

[HighVoltage]

I wouldn't touch em for at least a few years. I've seen way too many LED replacements coming out of the far east that are being overdriven. They are trying to push more candles out of these LEDs than they should to keep up with the output from the existing light sources.

 

[rsanter]

we have some in out lighting display room (light lab)
they are cool but too expensive for now for the average usage

where they do make work well is in cold boxes and cold storage where the lights are on 24-7

for the average user the T8 HO lights are the best bang for the buck

bob

 

[rwhite692]

The ROI is not there and the failure rates are still way too high.

 

[ddawg16]

I saw an LED light buld in HD the other day...$28...but when you look close you notice that the stated life is 25,000 hours....far short of the 100K hours that most LED fans state....

At that price....you could buy about 10 CFL's which would give you at least 100K hours of service.

Yea...LED's are not there yet...

 

[bad daddy]

The main problem is not the led, but the reflector. LEDs are very brght to look at. Brake lights, turn signals, traffic signals, etc. The problem is that they don't throw the light very far without a proper reflector. I have yet to see an LED that is the eqivalent to a halogen bulb. In my line of work, marine yacht building, we can't wait for the LED to succeed. On one 141' yacht we have over 300 fixtures and the crew has to replace the halogen bulbs an aveage of 4 times a year! One of the latest builds is all LED fixtures, and the really good fixtures have huge heat sinks on them, they're dimmable, and can change colour. The colour is identical to that of a halogen, which is remarkable, as a few years ago the light was terrible.

OceanLED, i2 Systems, DR Smith, Cantaluupi, and Imtra are some of the top brands in the marine sector. The price has come down, but for now I would only consider it for task lighting.

The main reason it is popular in the marine sector and automotive is lower amp draw, which means less weight in terms of wire, and less load on the batteries and gensets.

 

[Torque1st]

The main problem is not the led, but the reflector. LEDs are very brght to look at. Brake lights, turn signals, traffic signals, etc. The problem is that they don't throw the light very far without a proper reflector.

A proper reflector is hard to build for a LED since they essentially shine in kind of a "cone" from the surface of an object instead of in all directions like a filament. To use a reflector with a LED the LED would face backwards and then the heatsink would be in the path of the beam.

Many LED units do have reflectors but they just catch some of the stray light and redirect it forward. Many high intensity LED light applications just throw more and more LED's at the problem and drive them harder which limits their life. That also requires more current and cooling.

 

[67camaro02]

thanks guys....I'm running 6- 4' sets of T12's in my garage (using the ~30 watt GE eco lights) but have kicked around the idea of swapping. Might just keep them in the back of my mind and see if in the future they make more sense.

Thanks for the reply's..being my first post and all. Most everything I just find using the search function, but didn't see much on LEDs.

 

[thdewey]

we have some in out lighting display room (light lab)
they are cool but too expensive for now for the average usage

where they do make work well is in cold boxes and cold storage where the lights are on 24-7
/QUOTE]

I just noticed that Walmart and Sam's started using them in their freezers. It makes sense to me. You save money on lighting and don't have to run the refrigeration compressor as much. I'm sure it adds up.

The main problem is not the led, but the reflector. LEDs are very brght to look at. Brake lights, turn signals, traffic signals, etc. The problem is that they don't throw the light very far without a proper reflector. I have yet to see an LED that is the eqivalent to a halogen bulb. In my line of work, marine yacht building, we can't wait for the LED to succeed. On one 141' yacht we have over 300 fixtures and the crew has to replace the halogen bulbs an aveage of 4 times a year! One of the latest builds is all LED fixtures, and the really good fixtures have huge heat sinks on them, they're dimmable, and can change colour. The colour is identical to that of a halogen, which is remarkable, as a few years ago the light was terrible.

OceanLED, i2 Systems, DR Smith, Cantaluupi, and Imtra are some of the top brands in the marine sector. The price has come down, but for now I would only consider it for task lighting.

The main reason it is popular in the marine sector and automotive is lower amp draw, which means less weight in terms of wire, and less load on the batteries and gensets.

Man that sounds cool! Thanks for posting. If you have a picture or link to a photo gallery, please post.

Tom

 

[Stuart in MN]

They have become pretty much standard issue for traffic signals. Another common application is for that flashing red aircraft clearance light you see on top of radio antennas or water towers. They also make LED streetlights, although not too many cities are using them yet because of the initial cost.

 

[HighVoltage]

They have become pretty much standard issue for traffic signals. Another common application is for that flashing red aircraft clearance light you see on top of radio antennas or water towers. They also make LED streetlights, although not too many cities are using them yet because of the initial cost.

I have to comment that the current breed of LED traffic lights are horrible. They are so much more directional that it is far too easy to get just out of the field of view of these things and not be able to see if its red or green.

 

[jake26]

LED tube lights are being marketed heavily in the signage industry because of their low power usage and lasting life. They still are cost prohibitive in most applications unless the cost supports the customer's needs.

We used a simular product in a sign cabinet in Miller Park (Milwaukee Brewer's stadium). Because the cabinet was 60' above the outfield fence, service was a problem so a long lasting, maintenance free product was necessary.

In home or normal business use, I see no reason to spend the money.

 

[Designer]

They have become pretty much standard issue for traffic signals. Another common application is for that flashing red aircraft clearance light you see on top of radio antennas or water towers. They also make LED streetlights, although not too many cities are using them yet because of the initial cost.

If you're in MN I'm sure you've heard of this too....
Here in STL they went crazy putting in the LED traffic lights. Then they discovered there has been an issue with the LED stoplights not generating enough heat to clear the snow/ice buildup on them. During snowstorms, the entire light would just be covered, whereas the old style would melt off the snow/ice. So, they added heating elements to the LEDs. Go figure. Then they quit swapping the conventionals out for LEDs.

 

[Stuart in MN]

If you're in MN I'm sure you've heard of this too....
Here in STL they went crazy putting in the LED traffic lights. Then they discovered there has been an issue with the LED stoplights not generating enough heat to clear the snow/ice buildup on them. During snowstorms, the entire light would just be covered, whereas the old style would melt off the snow/ice. So, they added heating elements to the LEDs. Go figure. Then they quit swapping the conventionals out for LEDs.

I don't think that's as big a problem here, due to the climate differences - we don't get as much of the wet sticky snow or ice storms as you may have in St Louis (I assume that's STL), or at least when we do it mostly falls straight down and not sideways so it doesn't cake over the lights. I have seen it happen, but not very often. When it's really blowing, it's also usually cold enough that the snow is very dry.

I haven't had any projects for a few years now but I used to design traffic signal installations, and I don't recall anyone mentioning they were having problems with the LED lights.

 

[Torque1st]

There is lots of LED info on:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/index.php?

 

[cowboyjosh]

If you're in MN I'm sure you've heard of this too....
Here in STL they went crazy putting in the LED traffic lights. Then they discovered there has been an issue with the LED stoplights not generating enough heat to clear the snow/ice buildup on them. During snowstorms, the entire light would just be covered, whereas the old style would melt off the snow/ice. So, they added heating elements to the LEDs. Go figure. Then they quit swapping the conventionals out for LEDs.

This is why at my house in Colorado I will NOT have LED landscape lighting, the snow covers the spot lights and occasionally in really heavy snow events will nearly cover the path lights and the snow didn't melt away like it does with the Halogens; thus in a heavy snowfall and on a back country road that my house is on there is zero light when the LED fixtures were covered. Its the law of unintended consequences, you solve 1 problem in this case saving marginal amounts of energy and going green, but create another.

Obviously some technologies work better in some climates then they do in others.

 

[Sigman]

If you want to help the environment, LEDs are the only way to go. I would not want the mercury from the CFLs to seep into the landfills and eventually our food supply. I believe there will always be a premium for LEDs since it can decimate the CFL/Incandescent bulb industry. I will *try* to convert to LEDs when I renovate my garage. I understand that cost is the driving factor for any purchase especially on out current economic climate. I think for *long* term, the cost benefit of LEDs from an electrical use standpoint should entice more people to convert. I think the cost of electricity will increase as demand increases.

 

[twostory]

They have become pretty much standard issue for traffic signals.

The LED traffic lights use 10 to 8 watts of power, versus 60 watts for the old style incandescent screw in bulbs. Also they last 10 years, not 1-2 years.

Many cities have changed to the new LED bulb for the 10 year life and the pay back time is only 1 year once you factor in the lower power usage.

 

[ddawg16]

If you want to help the environment, LEDs are the only way to go. I would not want the mercury from the CFLs to seep into the landfills and eventually our food supply. I believe there will always be a premium for LEDs since it can decimate the CFL/Incandescent bulb industry. I will *try* to convert to LEDs when I renovate my garage. I understand that cost is the driving factor for any purchase especially on out current economic climate. I think for *long* term, the cost benefit of LEDs from an electrical use standpoint should entice more people to convert. I think the cost of electricity will increase as demand increases.

Before you get too comfortable hugging that tree....you need to consider that LED's are not as clean as you think...while they may not put any mercury into a land fill, some nice elements are used to make them...such as gallium and arsenic.

As for Mercury....when you look at the average amount in a buld and what is emmited into the air burning coal to light the buld vs the amount of mercury released in the air burning coal to light an incandescent bulb....it works out to about to about 1.2 mg for the CFL (.6mg to land fill) and 5.8mg of mercury for an incandescent bulb.

Additionally, the life of all those fancy LED bulds is no where near what the greenies are bragging about. I would say that a large % of the LED traffic lights in my area that were swapped out 4 years ago already have a significant # of LED's non-functioning in the lamp....the 'advertised' life is about 100K hours....that would work out to 11.5 years of 24/7 operation....considering most lights operate about half that time (shared with the other direction of travel)...you would expect them to last over 20 years....it ain't happening....no doubt the real reason is the electronics needed to reduce the voltage....

So...until the life of LED's does reach even 50K hours....and the price to 1/4th of what it is now....they are not a good value yet....

 

[Sigman]

Before you get too comfortable hugging that tree....you need to consider that LED's are not as clean as you think...while they may not put any mercury into a land fill, some nice elements are used to make them...such as gallium and arsenic.

As for Mercury....when you look at the average amount in a buld and what is emmited into the air burning coal to light the buld vs the amount of mercury released in the air burning coal to light an incandescent bulb....it works out to about to about 1.2 mg for the CFL (.6mg to land fill) and 5.8mg of mercury for an incandescent bulb.

Additionally, the life of all those fancy LED bulds is no where near what the greenies are bragging about. I would say that a large % of the LED traffic lights in my area that were swapped out 4 years ago already have a significant # of LED's non-functioning in the lamp....the 'advertised' life is about 100K hours....that would work out to 11.5 years of 24/7 operation....considering most lights operate about half that time (shared with the other direction of travel)...you would expect them to last over 20 years....it ain't happening....no doubt the real reason is the electronics needed to reduce the voltage....

So...until the life of LED's does reach even 50K hours....and the price to 1/4th of what it is now....they are not a good value yet....

Agreed. The majority of the mercury emitted is from burning fossil fuels. Just because it is doesn't mean that people should ignore the *small* mercury level in the bulbs. The really high mercury content in our seafood really blows. I really believe that everyone should do their part to really make a difference. In this current environment, ignorance just doesn't cut it anymore... ans that includes me.

The LED bulb industry is still quite young... hence, the lack of competition and high cost of manufacturing are passed on to the customer. Early adopters pay this high price. However, the potential is definitely there. The failure rates will definitely decrease withe more testing and research. In the real world, the high cost LEDs don't make sense for the general public. But wait until the electric bill spikes and people will start jumping the bandwagon. This is similar to the Toyota Prius and the like. When the gas prices increased, those gas guzzling SUVs don't look too appealing anymore as it will cost them more $$ just to drive them.

Time will tell...

 

[bchee]

I didn't see any mention of LED delay. Not sure if it's a common phenomenon. I put some in my kitchen (from HD) and there is a 2 second delay before they turn on.

(it's summer here, so it's not a cold temp issue)

 

[ForceFed70]

I just wanted to point out that as far as efficiency goes, LED's are less efficient than florescent and HID lighting. If you are looking just to save power, you are better off with something else.

They are only now just comming out with LED's that rival CFL's for efficiency. However, these LED's arn't yet comercially available and will cost a mint when they do become availalble.

This is why you don't see any automotive manufacturers using LED's for headlights. HID is the better choice for that application.

LED lighting has it's place for many applications, but will never replace CFL for simple overhead lighting.