deltaphisig
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- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
- Messages
- 93
PM sent. I am really enjoying the build, and maybe I will have space for a similar tank at some point. I love fixing broken stuff, and this would be even better than a parts washer 
Lets build an industrial grade deruster
- Thread starter trbomax
- Start date
For anyone looking for used server power supplies for this type of project, ebay has 2 for $20 shipped. These are 32 amp 12v, 400 watt total. I just ordered one set. Link to ebay listing
I should have known what was going to happen,Ive been deluged with requests for the recipie.Since there is no way I can reply to this many pm's,here it is.You will have to find your own source for these chemicals since I get mine from my friend that has the stripping/derusting bussiness, and I have no clue where he gets it,nor do I care.
1# caustic soda/gal water
1# sodium gluconate/ 4 gal water
1 tsp (as a starting point) cyanide/5 galwater.
This solution is not to be taken lightly.It will inflict severe burns if it comes in contact with flesh.For that reason I cannot stress too much that when working with it you wear long sleeves,rubber chemical handleing gloves and a full face shield.
We want to keep the ph no lower than 15.Lower than that will reduce the efficency of the unit,and should be checked periodically.The cyanide is not a required ingrediant.Without it your parts will have some residual free carbon on them when pulled that can be removed with a good pressure washer or with a brush.Do not "over cyanide" the tank.At some point an exsess of cyanide will start to "kill" the solution,so it should be added in small amounts,and then the results monitered. I have always kept a book of what I put in when and what happened.Looseing control of the solution will mean starting over in many cases. Start with a little,and add it gradually untill you get clean parts.Machined surfaces should look like they were just machined when its right. This solution is temperature sensitive in as much that at 60 degf it will began to degrade. At 50 degf it will start to precipitate and then will become very slow. It will still work,just not well. If it gets cold and that happens,simply warm it up and CAREFULLY remix it with a drywall mud mixer.I a comercial application,a gas burner under the tank is used to keep it between 70 -75 deg f. I am thinking that in our application,a caged stock tank heater would do the same,but I dont know for sure. An even better way would be with a water tank heater imersion element and thermometer.The ony glitch I can see is what (if any) effect the highly caustic solution and or the electrolysis that is going on might have on the heater element.I am getting ahead of myself by putting all this up now,but everyone wanted it so here it is.
I must state a disclaimer for anything that may happen as a result of doing any of this.I will not be responsible for anything that may result from persons useing the above information as it is just that,information.It is not to be considered as instructions in any way and what anyone does with the information is soley thier responsibility.
1# caustic soda/gal water
1# sodium gluconate/ 4 gal water
1 tsp (as a starting point) cyanide/5 galwater.
This solution is not to be taken lightly.It will inflict severe burns if it comes in contact with flesh.For that reason I cannot stress too much that when working with it you wear long sleeves,rubber chemical handleing gloves and a full face shield.
We want to keep the ph no lower than 15.Lower than that will reduce the efficency of the unit,and should be checked periodically.The cyanide is not a required ingrediant.Without it your parts will have some residual free carbon on them when pulled that can be removed with a good pressure washer or with a brush.Do not "over cyanide" the tank.At some point an exsess of cyanide will start to "kill" the solution,so it should be added in small amounts,and then the results monitered. I have always kept a book of what I put in when and what happened.Looseing control of the solution will mean starting over in many cases. Start with a little,and add it gradually untill you get clean parts.Machined surfaces should look like they were just machined when its right. This solution is temperature sensitive in as much that at 60 degf it will began to degrade. At 50 degf it will start to precipitate and then will become very slow. It will still work,just not well. If it gets cold and that happens,simply warm it up and CAREFULLY remix it with a drywall mud mixer.I a comercial application,a gas burner under the tank is used to keep it between 70 -75 deg f. I am thinking that in our application,a caged stock tank heater would do the same,but I dont know for sure. An even better way would be with a water tank heater imersion element and thermometer.The ony glitch I can see is what (if any) effect the highly caustic solution and or the electrolysis that is going on might have on the heater element.I am getting ahead of myself by putting all this up now,but everyone wanted it so here it is.
I must state a disclaimer for anything that may happen as a result of doing any of this.I will not be responsible for anything that may result from persons useing the above information as it is just that,information.It is not to be considered as instructions in any way and what anyone does with the information is soley thier responsibility.
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Following this with interest, trbo.
Something wrong with that 15 number, tough. Common pH scale goes from 0-14. A strongish caustic soda solution would be close to 14.
Xicaque
Well-known member
sub'd
You are correct about that. I got that # from my son who was reading my old notes to me from 300 miles away. I havent done any derusting for about 15 yrs so I have to either rely on the old notebook (which is pretty crusty) or call my pro friend and have him refresh me! I'll call him tomorrow.
edit) the mix numbers are right though,he wrote that on the bags of chemicals that the kid brought up last winter.
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IONH
Well-known member
metalmagpie
Well-known member
I have a different question. My understanding is that this process bubbles off hydrogen. I have seen it trapped in thick foam at the top of large tanks. My friend experienced a hydrogen conflagration which fortunately didn't hurt anyone but which made a very large bang and probably caused him to need to launder his underwear if you get my drift. What is your plan to deal with the released hydrogen, which of course wants very badly to combine with oxygen from the air to form water vapor, a chemical process which is highly exothermic?
metalmagpie
metalmagpie
I dont think its as much of a problem as people think. You know,one little incident gets passed around and every time it gets bigger and worse.Yes there is free hydrogen released. My friends tanks are 24' x 10'x10'. He's running an average of 1500 -2000 amps thru it 24/7. There has never been any explosions there since the early 70's when he started.People tend to worry,sensationalize and overthink things on the internet.I'm sure that if you put a tightly fitting hood over the tank and purposely collected the hydrogen,then mixed it with the correct ratio of oxygen and introduced a flame,you could make it pop,but I can do that lighting a fart too and there are a lot of methane produceing cows in barns all winter and they are just pumping it out. Ever hear of a cow *** explosion?Anyway,as far as my setup is concerned,its a no issue.Anyone else can do what they wish.
edit) I am a whole lot more worried that the solution will splash on someone and cause chemical burns. For that reason,no one will be allowed in my shop when I am loading or unloading the tank.Another thing to consider is that ,just like my setup, his anode bar crosses over the tank and will spark when connecting or disconnecting (removeing parts). I have watched his anode bar throw a blue spark2 inches long when they pull bundles of steel pipe out with the oh crane.Ive done a lot of maintenance welding over the years right next to the tank while it was running and nevr was blown up.
edit) I am a whole lot more worried that the solution will splash on someone and cause chemical burns. For that reason,no one will be allowed in my shop when I am loading or unloading the tank.Another thing to consider is that ,just like my setup, his anode bar crosses over the tank and will spark when connecting or disconnecting (removeing parts). I have watched his anode bar throw a blue spark2 inches long when they pull bundles of steel pipe out with the oh crane.Ive done a lot of maintenance welding over the years right next to the tank while it was running and nevr was blown up.
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I just got off the phone with my "advisor" so here is what he said.
Free alkanility (sp?) and total alkanility are 2 different things. My son was reading the TOTAL alkalinity which is the sum of what you have added to the tank. For our purposes it is only a theoretical number. It can be measured thru titration,but doesnt really matter anyway. Free alkanility is what the solution actually is at any given point. Free alkanility should be kept as close to 15 as possible,so in other words,off the litmus paper scale. 14 is about as good as we will get.The caustic will be "consumed" and fall out of solution with any free rust (iron oxide) that sluffs off the parts.This is what causes the mud on the bottom of the tank and lowers the free alkanility.About every other load, check the alkalinity with litmus and adjust as required.We need to keep the free and total #'s as close as possible.
He has had the tank "woosh" when its been running hard and long and his guys lift a part w/o shutting the rectifyer down (which is sop). It may happen once or twice a year in the summer when the furnace blowers are not running and is just a gentle blue flame that rolls across the foam on the top of the tank.
A hot water tank heating element will work just fine for solution temp control. A 1500 will be more than enough for my 70 gal solution. Bolt it thru the tank wall with a steel backer plate on the inside. Be sure it cannot touch either the parts or the anode because it will blow the power supply when it grounds out.If the power supplys are fused at 90% capacity (which I am doing) it would just blow the fuse.Across the tank from the heater put the hw tank thermostat,mounted in the same way. I will detail this when I get that far on the build.As I stated elsewhere,he has BIG open flame gas burners under his tanks, with a 2" gas line feeding them.I know this because I built the frames that hold them!
The gluconate acts as a "washing agent" and prevents any build up on the anodes. The acid solution and lack of glutconate that some of you are useing is what is killing your anodes. He used to pull his anodes once a year and wash them off,but there is never anything on them so he quit doing it 10 yrs or so ago.
So there it is,from the guy that knows.I need to go work on my mower deck that spun a quill bearing now!
Free alkanility (sp?) and total alkanility are 2 different things. My son was reading the TOTAL alkalinity which is the sum of what you have added to the tank. For our purposes it is only a theoretical number. It can be measured thru titration,but doesnt really matter anyway. Free alkanility is what the solution actually is at any given point. Free alkanility should be kept as close to 15 as possible,so in other words,off the litmus paper scale. 14 is about as good as we will get.The caustic will be "consumed" and fall out of solution with any free rust (iron oxide) that sluffs off the parts.This is what causes the mud on the bottom of the tank and lowers the free alkanility.About every other load, check the alkalinity with litmus and adjust as required.We need to keep the free and total #'s as close as possible.
He has had the tank "woosh" when its been running hard and long and his guys lift a part w/o shutting the rectifyer down (which is sop). It may happen once or twice a year in the summer when the furnace blowers are not running and is just a gentle blue flame that rolls across the foam on the top of the tank.
A hot water tank heating element will work just fine for solution temp control. A 1500 will be more than enough for my 70 gal solution. Bolt it thru the tank wall with a steel backer plate on the inside. Be sure it cannot touch either the parts or the anode because it will blow the power supply when it grounds out.If the power supplys are fused at 90% capacity (which I am doing) it would just blow the fuse.Across the tank from the heater put the hw tank thermostat,mounted in the same way. I will detail this when I get that far on the build.As I stated elsewhere,he has BIG open flame gas burners under his tanks, with a 2" gas line feeding them.I know this because I built the frames that hold them!
The gluconate acts as a "washing agent" and prevents any build up on the anodes. The acid solution and lack of glutconate that some of you are useing is what is killing your anodes. He used to pull his anodes once a year and wash them off,but there is never anything on them so he quit doing it 10 yrs or so ago.
So there it is,from the guy that knows.I need to go work on my mower deck that spun a quill bearing now!
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BADSIX
Well-known member
well i'm going to have a lot of questions. I run a small restoration shop a my home, mostly old cars, hot rods ,motorcycles anything old. kind of like the guy on tv. I have a day job but will be retiring soon an running the shop a little more, anyway this process would help me out a lot.
so my first question, I'm assuming caustic soda is the same as lye ?
#2 where can you get sodium gluconate or should it be glucomate ?
thanks Jay D
so my first question, I'm assuming caustic soda is the same as lye ?
#2 where can you get sodium gluconate or should it be glucomate ?
thanks Jay D
deltaphisig
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
- Messages
- 93
Caustic soda = lye = sodium hydroxide. It is readily available at home supply stores and elsewhere.
Sodium gluconate is a chelating agent used for food preservation and cleaning. It is legal to obtain, but I cna't think of any place to get in bulk easily. You can always order form a scientific or chemical supply.
Potassium or Sodium Cyanide is highly toxic and on all the naughty lists. Again, probably difficult to find for most people outside of academic or industrial labs.
If anyone knows of common sources for these things, they may post here and help us all out. Lord knows I don't want 20# of cyanide from Sigma Aldrich.
Sodium gluconate is a chelating agent used for food preservation and cleaning. It is legal to obtain, but I cna't think of any place to get in bulk easily. You can always order form a scientific or chemical supply.
Potassium or Sodium Cyanide is highly toxic and on all the naughty lists. Again, probably difficult to find for most people outside of academic or industrial labs.
If anyone knows of common sources for these things, they may post here and help us all out. Lord knows I don't want 20# of cyanide from Sigma Aldrich.
BADSIX
Well-known member
another question, will this formula remove paint or will I need a separate tank for paint removal before the derusting tank.
thanks Jay D
thanks Jay D
The cyanide as I said earlier,is optional. I can get it because he buys it in cardboard drums. They look like maybe 10#. Its a common chemical anywhere that steel is rolled, pickeled or washed. If you are near the "big city" I'd try those places. You are only going to need a couple ounces.
It will soften single stage paint but its not a strip tank. That will be my next build. If the paint is broken you will be able to pressure wash it off after a good soak. Running the tank hotter,but no more than 80 deg f will help too.
It will soften single stage paint but its not a strip tank. That will be my next build. If the paint is broken you will be able to pressure wash it off after a good soak. Running the tank hotter,but no more than 80 deg f will help too.
Omphaloskeptic
Well-known member
"Ever hear of a cow *** explosion?"
Mrs. O'Leary's cow kicking over a lantern was blamed for the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, but we here at TGJ can now surmise that it was probably due to a "cow *** explosion". lol
Trbomax, thanks for taking the time and effort to document this project and educate us at the same time.
Mrs. O'Leary's cow kicking over a lantern was blamed for the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, but we here at TGJ can now surmise that it was probably due to a "cow *** explosion". lol
Trbomax, thanks for taking the time and effort to document this project and educate us at the same time.
Todays work didnt go the way I wanted. I started out by getting setup to make the cables. When I opened the package of end lugs I was lookin at a mix of 3/8" and 3/16",not 5/16" that will fit the anode/cathode bars. I put one in the mill and opened it up with a 5/16" ball end mill,but it just didnt leave enough material down the side.So,I ordered 24 more,maybe I'll get luckey!
Here is a pic of the bags of chemical too.
I got the panel made for the power supplys and switches. I'm jumping ahead,but it has to be done and I cant go forward on the tank with the wrong parts. I also made up a couple hold down clamps for the power supplys.
Here is a pic of the bags of chemical too.
I got the panel made for the power supplys and switches. I'm jumping ahead,but it has to be done and I cant go forward on the tank with the wrong parts. I also made up a couple hold down clamps for the power supplys.
Attachments
BADSIX
Well-known member
I know I may be jumping ahead here, but what kind of power are you going to have ?
Jay D
Jay D
sophijo
Well-known member
Here ya go:
Well thats interesting,but not even close to the same. We wont have any goo or scum to pressure wash off.We wont have any black (imbedded carbon) coating to sand off either. We wont have to nuetralize the flash rust by spraying the parts with a comercial product,because we wont have any flash rust.Ours wont take 2 weeks to do either,maybe 2 days at the most.
edit) because our solution is a strong base ,not acid,we wont loose any of the parent metal either.Remember the flash rust is caused by the acid solution.Certain acids in the proper concintration (phosphoric) can be used as an etching agent before painting,but not acids that form oxides.
edit) because our solution is a strong base ,not acid,we wont loose any of the parent metal either.Remember the flash rust is caused by the acid solution.Certain acids in the proper concintration (phosphoric) can be used as an etching agent before painting,but not acids that form oxides.
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hopefuldave
New member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2013
- Messages
- 1
Looking like an excellent addition to the shop, my EGBERT (Electrolytic Gungey Bubbling Encrustation Removal Tank) is quite a lot smaller and only runs 30 Amps but I've gone over to graphite for the anodes, carbon arc brazing rods.with the copper stripped off using ferric chloride (for PCB etching) except the last inch which I leave for soldering connections. The graphite rods don't crud nor crumble up like scrap steel, so no need for anything but wash soda and the used solution can go down the drain. The brazing rods work well for anodizing tanks too!
deltaphisig
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
- Messages
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Any updates? I have really enjoyed following along!
BADSIX
Well-known member
great
I had a little time to work on some components this afternoon. I made up all the cables that connect the anodes and cathode rails.Used #4 welding cable and 5/16" lugs. Drilled a hole in the end of them to let air out when soldering them on.Finished up with shrink tubeing. I got them all made and was going to install everything but it was just too hot and humid out there. Makeing the cables was OK,its air conditioned in that part of the shop. I know its not earth shatering progress,theres just too much to do around here and not enough time to do it. I dont know what the hell I'd do if I had a job!
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BADSIX
Well-known member
hey it's progress . like I said before this has really caught my eye as I do a lot of restoration work. so i have kinda got a plan, I want to have a tank apr. 4 ft. x 4 ft. x 4 ft. high. but the liquid would be 3 ft. high apr. 350 gal. I would build the tanks out of plywood and fiberglass or have poly liners made. theirs a company locally that makes them any way you want them. I've got a few ideas about heat one idea was to use a hot tub heating element and circulating pump, I just happen to have one. but i'm not sure if it would hold up to the caustic. but the more I think about it the stock tank heater would be the simplest. now the big question how much power will I need In amps to the tank apr. 350 gal.?
I put the cables on today and tightened everything up.The bolt on the end of the copper cathode rail is where the cable to the poersupplys will go.
Tomorrow I have to go shopping for a heater element and thermostat setup. Once that is installed,the tank is done and the power supply panel can be built.
Tomorrow I have to go shopping for a heater element and thermostat setup. Once that is installed,the tank is done and the power supply panel can be built.
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BADSIX
Well-known member
sorry I didn't ask before, but my electrician buddy said we need to know the volts out for the power supply. like 40 amps at 12 volts and this is dc power correct ? going into the tank.
thanks Jay D
thanks Jay D
I will be useing the 5vdc rail on the ps.each one is rated 35a @5vdc. In a perfect situation (with a custom built power supply like my friend has) the voltage will be 8.His will supply 2000 a @8vdc.Its about the size of a refridgerator. With the server ps the choice is 12vdc or 5vdc. He told me to use 5vdc and it will work fine. at 12vdc the carbon transfer will be unaceptably high and if parts are left in for an extended time,some base metal erosion will occur. At voltages of 8 or less this will not happen. This is what he told me,not from personal experience.He's been doing it for a liveing for over 40 yrs now,so I dont question him!
BADSIX
Well-known member
thanks
TruckJunkie
Well-known member
Lots of very good information in this thread, have used washing soda solutions several times with very satisfactory results, but this caustic solution looks interesting. It does seem to have several down sides with the risk to health and temperature sensitivity, but for some situations it could be very worthwhile.
Well,I got a 1500w lower water heater element and the thermostat to run it.After I got it home and started looking at it and thinking about it,I dont like it.I would have to drill a 1 1/4" hole low on the side of the tank,then make a threaded plate and backer plate that could be bolted thru the tank wall.I didnt like the idea of the thermostat being stuck on the outside of the tank and haveing to read thru the tank wall. So I put it all back in the box and looked at the tank some more. Ive been over thinking this heater thing. In '73 when we built the house in sylvania ohio,I made friends with the guy that lived across the street. he was a drywall contractor and when we were ready to finish he came over to help.It was december and of course the water buckets were too cold to use for mixing the mud. he had a couple heaters that just hung over the edge of the buckets and would bring the water up from40 deg to 80 in about 10 minutes. After some internet surfing I found a 1000 w imersion heater that will hang off the cathode bar.Duh! No holes in the tank,and when the element burns out I just lift it out and get another one instead of pumping the tank down and takeing the fittings out of the tank wall. So anyway,I ordered one and will run some tests with 70 gal of clear water in the tank.Now that I have the tank heat under control,maybe I can get a couple hours in on the power supply tomorrow.
BADSIX
Well-known member
I work for a ocean going tug and barge co.and they have their own repair facility ( ship yard ). so I'm talking to the electrician any he thinks I could maybe use a welding machine. we have a few dc 400 machines that he said will go down to about 12 volts and have up to 400 amps available. I've got him working on how to get down to around 5-8 volts. we just scrapped about 30 of these about a year ago, but still have a few around most were 3 ph but a few are 1 ph.. I also think I've figured out where to get my caustic and cyanide. my brother in-law has a large dairy ranch and he said they use lye and cyanide on the ranch so we'll see. any ideas would be great. I want to have all my ducks in a row before I start to build.
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Amitygravel
Well-known member
turbomax ,
Might check the farm supply stores for stock tank heaters.
Don't know if they are adjustable tempature wise but they may be a cheaper item.
Might check the farm supply stores for stock tank heaters.
Don't know if they are adjustable tempature wise but they may be a cheaper item.
rubberrodder
Well-known member
Any and all liability for any FREE advice given on the board is limited solely and completely to what was paid for said FREE advice.
Stock tank heaters have a thermostat in them that shuts off at 40 deg. Ive got a few of those but all they would do is keep it from freezeing. The 1000w bucket heater I ended up with will work and will just hang in the tank. It cannot touch any anode or cathodes though. The only thing I'm afraid of is that it will be too much heater so the temp will need to be watched closely untill that is determined. There will be enough mass in this 100 gal tank that it will hold heat well. If I can get it up to say,130 during the day and uplug it at night, that will work.