GTA Matt
Well-known member
Each snap on update is getting better and better with bmw and mercedes. Pretty worthless in volvo, jag and landrover though.
Let's talk about diagnostic tools
- Thread starter mikeselky85
- Start date
richfinn
Well-known member
Yeah I did mention actuator/bidirectional testing In the first paragraph.
What I'm saying is that you cannot write a man off as a "parts hanger"
Just because he only has access to a code reader. It's the technician not the tool
That fixes the fault
wafrederick
Well-known member
Another shop encountered this problem.Ford's computer systems are from hell,have sent so many to the dealer for this reason.Plus Ford is trying to shut down independent shops.Electronic transmissions,I won't get inside of a Ford automatic and it is getting to the point reman transmissions get installed.Flat out horrible to diagnose and fix problems with.
Yeah I did mention actuator/bidirectional testing In the first paragraph.
What I'm saying is that you cannot write a man off as a "parts hanger"
Just because he only has access to a code reader. It's the technician not the tool
That fixes the fault
First my experience says different, those techs that do not invest in themselves tend to work at shops that do not supply the proper equipment for their techs. All the techs I have worked with that use a code reader over the shops real tool, tend to be part chuckers once the parts chucked do not fix it I get it and get to work for free because the chucker got paid for the Diag and the shop will not charge the customer again. My point is once they shot gun a part they are now lost and do not know what to do other than chuck another part.
I do agree that it is the tech and not the tool, but with todays modern vehicles, so much goes through networks etc without the proper tools to test computer control you are wasting time and customers money. I just helped another tech replace the pats module and program new keys, on a Ford, how do you do that with a code reader? DVOM? The complaint was a no start sometimes.
GTA Matt
Well-known member
Fords are some of the easier cars to work on. Especially with the right equipment. Diagrams are easy to follow and modules are generally easy to access. When I got vw's, bmw's and mercedes' lined up, its good to see a ford roll into the parking lot....
Same here I would rather work on a ford than a BMW any day of the week
OP
mikeselky85
Well-known member
The price isn't that big of an issue for me. But to update a solus I didn't like just wasn't worth the price. And I wrote this post mostly about diag tools other than scan tools. Just want to see what other things you guys use. I've messed with a lot of vacuum leaks and back pressure tests as well as the basic part failure and I enjoy using basic odds and ends to figure a car out.
Like I said I would like the modis but they don't make updates. And the new snap on version of the modis is WAY out of my price range. Believe it was $10k last time I looked and my box is getting full and I'll need to upgrade before I add a scan tool
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Like I said I would like the modis but they don't make updates. And the new snap on version of the modis is WAY out of my price range. Believe it was $10k last time I looked and my box is getting full and I'll need to upgrade before I add a scan tool
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OK let see, VCM2 1800 bucks 1 year subscription,700 bucks a year, that includes all programing files and the same diag tool that is used at dealers. yep locking everyone out. If you want to be pissed at some one be pissed at MB their tool is 22k and like 4k a year and ALL OF THEIR DIAG INFO IS ONLY IN THE TOOL and is not in Alldata or MOD.
As for Ford Automatic transmission I almost never find an electronic issue other than oil leaking out of a connector on ford trucks, almost every issue I have seen with a ford trans is mechanical not electronic. If you do not want to keep up with technologies stop working on cars for money, other wise shut up. Ford is gravy.
You keep talking about ford not setting misfire codes, I have a 2002 Excursion with a 5.4 started missing, this is a 3/4 truck and doesn't fall under OBD2 rules as it is a HD truck, flagged a P0307, I scoped the coil and watched power balance test and guess what it needed a coil. Last week a 3 Valve 5.4 F250 again doesn't fall under OBD2 rules CEL with misfire code.
GTA Matt
Well-known member
A smoke machine is absolute time saver in finding vacuum leaks. Unless you have a large leak, the old way of spraying carb cleaner and listening to rpm's just doesn't work any more. Even watching fuel trims and o2 readings can be very inconclusive. Smoke machine and the adapters to block off the airbox is well worth the investment.
OP
mikeselky85
Well-known member
I like using the smoke machine we have. I only use it for evap leaks mostly. But a lot of other guys leave the nitrogen on and it's empty when I have to do a test. I hear good things about propane enrichment but haven't tried it
being that I only work at a firstone store, I dont see as much things as some of you guys deal with, but I do have aot of diagnostics and odd issues come through the door. woul be no purpose for me to have a bunch of factory scan tools. would like to look into a newer snap on solus ultra or s0mething then get a graphing multimeter, I hear the fluke ones a pretty good
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being that I only work at a firstone store, I dont see as much things as some of you guys deal with, but I do have aot of diagnostics and odd issues come through the door. woul be no purpose for me to have a bunch of factory scan tools. would like to look into a newer snap on solus ultra or s0mething then get a graphing multimeter, I hear the fluke ones a pretty good
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I am lazy, I like to let the tools do the work for me, they still do updates for the original Modis, and can still repair them as well, they just do not make new ones anymore. Yes the Verus Pro is 10k. The Modis Ultra is 6K IIRR
Scan tools are the most used for me, next is the scope on the Verus Pro, sometimes with a low amp probe. PowerProbe is used a lot, as is my DVOM.
GTA Matt
Well-known member
I know what you mean about guys leaving the nitrogen on....The redline smoke pro is pretty good. Uses baby oil and shop air. Sometimes you can catch it on sale for around $600. You have to be mindful with the baby oil residue and evap lines when used in excess, but it works wonderful on intakes.
OP
mikeselky85
Well-known member
that's no a bad price at all. I would like to get one for myself eventually, its just good to have you own tools since everybody messes the shop ones up. I use my meter I got from school all the time, its helped me find a lot of issues. I have a power probe but I don't use it much unless I need to activate something. I used to work with and still do work with some guys who try to diag wiring issues with the power probe...ive always learned to stay away from it as much as possible thus not t cause more issues.
im also big on vacuum readings and compression tests. I remember not too long ago another guy older than me with more experience did a full tune up and I had found out it had burnt exhaust valves and would need a head job, not just the tune up
im also big on vacuum readings and compression tests. I remember not too long ago another guy older than me with more experience did a full tune up and I had found out it had burnt exhaust valves and would need a head job, not just the tune up
GTA Matt
Well-known member
With all the high tech gadgets we have now, using the vacuum gauge is almost a lost art. But it is one of the more valuable pieces of equipment to have and taking the 5 seconds it takes to hook it up can save tons of time and miss diags.
OP
mikeselky85
Well-known member
that is true. see my ad taught me when I was first starting to work on cars to use a vacuum gauge, mostly because I grew up with some carbureted car and still have two of them I use daily. I think some of the older guys I work with find it odd that a 23 year old still likes using a vacuum gauge since everybody just watches scan tool data or ues transducers for he meters
I saw a cool video with Eric the car guy and scanner Danner where the challenge was to do the diagnosis without a scan tool. I thought that was pretty cool. I wonder how many people like his book? The basic one. I saw another video where a guy was saying he was able to save a great deal of time using he scanner Danner book doing flat rate work. I need to learn more about this area too, which is why I ask.
richfinn
Well-known member
I think you misunderstand my point.
A £50 code reader does not make someone a "part chucker"
In the same way that £75000 worth of Snap On tools and a box full of factory diag platforms does not maketh a master technician
Sure you sometimes need to be able to reflash/code/register things with specialist equipment
But all the computer power in the world won't track down a wiring fault
To find those faults you need a tech
OP
mikeselky85
Well-known member
its all about finding methods that cut your diagnostic time down an knowing where to begin looking is always key when solving problems. but don't get me wrong, ive had, and im sure most people still do have that one car that just kicks your ***
ive never read any books on diagnostics, I just learn from experience and some classes ive been through. but im sure there are some great books out there on the subject
ive never read any books on diagnostics, I just learn from experience and some classes ive been through. but im sure there are some great books out there on the subject
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richfinn
Well-known member
Paul Danners e book is very good.
Dan Sullivan's FET book is also useful, and the Load Pro leads make life easier.
James Dillon at Tech Topics has some good books on his site.
Albin Moore on iATN is worth following too.
I think you misunderstand my point.
A £50 code reader does not make someone a "part chucker"
In the same way that £75000 worth of Snap On tools and a box full of factory diag platforms does not maketh a master technician
Sure you sometimes need to be able to reflash/code/register things with specialist equipment
But all the computer power in the world won't track down a wiring fault
To find those faults you need a tech
Nope I understand your point and I agree, but only to a point, without the proper tooling a tech is handcuffed and can only do so much before they reach the end of the chain.
Also I own one of those code readers, and yes I use it to verify repairs but I would not rely on it to fix cars, I have had completely wrong codes come up on code readers, example Ford transit came in with CEL on SA used his torque app and came up with a maf code and an EGR code, Hooked up IDS and no MAF Code at all, if you relied on that tool it would have lead you down a dark road of BS. FYI broken wire at the Egr Valve.
OP
mikeselky85
Well-known member
im not sure if any of you guys are familiar with EAST diagnostic training, but ive learned a lot of good things from those classes and i have more classes scheduled to come soon. I wish i could sit and read some of the books out there, but i cant sit long enough...i guess that the same reason i didn't study for any of my ASE tests either.
Im always up to learning new things and new tricks...that's why i try to take in as much information as possible with diagnostics
Im always up to learning new things and new tricks...that's why i try to take in as much information as possible with diagnostics
jethro29
Well-known member
i mostly just use my lab scope,power probe, and an amp clamp.
scarney1988
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- May 13, 2013
- Messages
- 508
This man's books really help(ed) me. I think even the advanced crowd may (re)learn something from this man.
Also, I have only ever performed diagnostics at the dealer. I could not imagine working with out the proprietary information provided. In fact, I hate working without specs [i.e. expected voltages, expected readings under given conditions, etc...). General knowledge and assumptions can only go so far nowadays, imo.
Also, I have only ever performed diagnostics at the dealer. I could not imagine working with out the proprietary information provided. In fact, I hate working without specs [i.e. expected voltages, expected readings under given conditions, etc...). General knowledge and assumptions can only go so far nowadays, imo.
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ptschram
Well-known member
I sell Snap-On but work on Land Rovers.
If you see enough Land Rovers, the ONLY diagnostic tool to have is from Blackbox-solutioos.com. Better than Testbooks, T-4, IDS.
When I worked at a dealership, it was common for me to be asked to go home and get my Rovacom-and I was a Service Advisor!
richfinn
Well-known member
Fair points,
On the flip side though I fixed a nearly new VW Polo using an EOBD code reader a DVOM and load pro, which 3 VW franchised dealers had failed to repair by fitting an intank fuel pump and a relay (and something else I forget what). They had managed to bust the fuse box cover and the access panel to the fuel pump.
It was loose terminals in the FP connector (TSB available
)Anyway not to railroad the thread talking about uber factory tooling most of us can only fantasise about.
How about what sub £100 diagnostic tools are you using
richfinn
Well-known member
I have taken several of Albin's classes and he is even better in person
Yeah I've followed his threads for 10 years or so, he's a smart guy and he gets his points across very well
Bit far for me to commute to a class though
Maybe one day
richfinn
Well-known member
Pal of mine uses Autologic and rates it very highly.
richfinn
Well-known member
Good post, quality tech info is hard won for independent techs. That said there are waveform library's with known Good/bad captures (and most scan tools have log files). The trick is recording good vehicle data and filing it away.
All other tech info is available via manufacturers TIS systems (at a price).
OP
mikeselky85
Well-known member
We have identifix at my work. I know a lot of guys use it for common problems so that they can recommend parts that the other techs have had luck with. But I use it for the factory service manuals and special test guides.
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Fair points,
On the flip side though I fixed a nearly new VW Polo using an EOBD code reader a DVOM and load pro, which 3 VW franchised dealers had failed to repair by fitting an intank fuel pump and a relay (and something else I forget what). They had managed to bust the fuse box cover and the access panel to the fuel pump.
It was loose terminals in the FP connector (TSB available
Anyway not to railroad the thread talking about uber factory tooling most of us can only fantasise about.
How about what sub £100 diagnostic tools are you using
Autel code reader, DVOM, power probe, old Snappy test light, propane tank with vacuum hose attached, Vacuum gauge, vacuum pump, compression gauge, oil pressure gauge, fuel pressure gauge, back pressure gauge, Tpins back probe connectors. homemade test pigtails, home made relay test rigs I use with a low amp probe, but the rigs were free except time to build and solder
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mikeselky85
Well-known member
I have a lot of home made pigtails and test lights. I seem to go through back proves like crazy though, so they are like gold in my tool box haha. And thanks for reminding me about the vacuum pump. I constantly need one for some egr tests but never remember to get one. Let's just hope I can remember this time
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signcrafter
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- Joined
- May 9, 2012
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- 12,317
Autel code reader, DVOM, power probe, old Snappy test light, propane tank with vacuum hose attached, Vacuum gauge, vacuum pump, compression gauge, oil pressure gauge, fuel pressure gauge, back pressure gauge, Tpins back probe connectors. homemade test pigtails, home made relay test rigs I use with a low amp probe, but the rigs were free except time to build and solder
Any chance on getting a picture of your relay test rigs? Have been thinking about making something up myself and a picture would really help.
OP
mikeselky85
Well-known member
+2 on that! We were just talking about some really testers at work the other day. Ran I to a few issues where I would have needed one
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Tarheelgarage
Well-known member
DMM
Vantage GMM
Autoenginuity Scanner Pro Bundle
Snappy Brick
Power Probe 3
Box full of various test leads, probes, etc
Lisle 60660 Deluxe Relay Test Set
GTC CT6100 Fuse Socket Connector Kit
Any much more I can't remember....
Vantage GMM
Autoenginuity Scanner Pro Bundle
Snappy Brick
Power Probe 3
Box full of various test leads, probes, etc
Lisle 60660 Deluxe Relay Test Set
GTC CT6100 Fuse Socket Connector Kit
Any much more I can't remember....
Yeo Will post up some pics Monday, FYI these rigs test the circuit not the relay itself, I used know good relays, pigtails off harness repair kits, and pins cut off other relays.
richfinn
Well-known member
Would this be the small Transit connect built in Turkey and exported to USA?
That MAF code may not show on your IDS as it may have the European version of OBD2 called EOBD where it's pretty normal to log a P0100 type code with EGR faults!!!!
wafrederick
Well-known member
I know a transmission repair shop that works on them,they beat their heads against the wall when they come in finding the problem.Get a call for problems with the Ford automatics,give the customer the phone number for this transmission repair shop.
Yes that one
It had a EGR circuit code not a flow code, TSB applied, no other scan tool showed that MAF code, nor have I seen it , on other Connect ,plus this vehicle does fall under obd2 compliance so it should have the US protocols, but you may be right IDK. But this is just on example of bad codes in generic OBD2 I have seen, I cannot tell you how many times I have seen phantom codes on OBD2 generic, that are not there on the enhanced side. FYI I tried the generic side of IDS, Modis, OTC and Autel code reader on none showed that code, also I had several other times were that app flagged false codes I just do not remember the others off hand
I know techs that build these all the time and no problems, I know Ford dealer techs that have no issues, again I no of no one that complains about Ford transmissions.