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Life Lessons (for lighting)

cybrdyke

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There are a lot of discussions in the lighting forum of Garage Journal that compare different sources of light. You will see discussions about lighting performance comparing lumens, color, CRI, beam angles, reflectance, lux and all sorts of other lighting science that may or may not have any relevance to a shop or a garage space.
One thing that you will often see compared is the life ratings of various lighting products. Average Rated Life numbers get thrown around alot in conversation but I bet that most people outside the lighting industry dont really understand what those numbers mean.
This is my attempt to explain it to the members of GJ, using plain english.

When a manufacturer states that a lamp's life is "X" hours, what does that mean? Does it mean that when the lamp gets used that many hours it will die? How do they know this? How is it possible for an LED manufacturer to know that his lamp will last 50,000 hours when it was only invented last week?
Let's look at a typical F32T8 lamp, which is commonly discussed on this forum. The run-of-the-mill T8 lamp has an Average Rated Life of 24,000 hours. The life testing is done in a laboratory environment. A sample batch of the lamps are installed. For sake of discussion, lets just say that the batch is 100 pieces. These 100 lamps are tortured in various ways. They are turned on and off repeatedly. The voltage and current are turned up high and down low. The temperature and humidity are fluctuated to extremes. And then the lamps start dying. One by one. The torture continues until HALF of the batch (called B50) are dead. When the 50th lamp dies, the clock is stopped....and it reads 24,000 hours. This is the number that is published in the catalog and on the box. Trust me, it's waaaaaay more technical than that, but that's the gist of it.
Something to remember before we continue. If the 100 lamps above were in your shop, after 24,000 hours HALF of them are 100% dead. This would be bad, right?
LED lamps are tested the same way, in the same lab, with the same torture. But there's a problem. LED's dont die until long after they have dimmed out so much that they are useless. So, if you were told that they lasted 100,000 hours but after 50,000 hours they were so dim that you couldn't see anything, you'd be pissed, right?
The lighting industry drew a line in the sand at the point where a lamp is not doing it's job. It's at 70% of full light output, or " 70% of initial lumens" or L70. Once a lamp dims down 30%, it is considered no longer useful and essentially dead. Now, you might not think it's dead. In fact, you might think it's still pretty bright. That's cool. But...lets go back to that laboratory.
Let's put a batch of 100 LED lamps in the torture chamber and start the clock. When 50% of those lamps (B50) dim down to 70% of their initial lumens (L70), the clock is stopped. That's the number that is put on the box and in the catalog.
Can you spot the big difference between the 100 fluorescent lamps in the first test batch we did and the 100 LED lamps in the second test batch? In the LED batch, 100% of the lights are STILL BURNING. None of them are dead. In the first batch 50% of them are completely dark.
This is the huge difference that proponents of fluorescent lighting continually forget to tell you!
So, finally, let's compare a few real world items....
F32T8 generic lamp: 24,000 hours (B50)
LED retrofit tubes: 50,000 hours (B50/L70)
100w light bulb: 750 hours (B50)
LED equivalent to 100w light bulb: 20,000 hours (B50/L70)
26w CFL: 10,000 hours (B50)

As I stated above, the testing is far more technical and scientific than the way I explained it, but you get the idea.

I hope this helps you all understand the lingo a little better. Feel free to ask if there are more in-depth issues you would like to know about.
CD
 
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Electric_Light

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Lol, nothing I haven't posted elsewhere already.

Simply put, if you're getting LEDs installed, go through a company that existed for 10-15 years. Listen to all that sales pitch about maintenance, life. Tell him to "warranty it, parts and labor". Simple as that.

Commercial fluorescent ballasts are generally warrantied with some labor allowance. Since LEDs claim to be superior to fluorescents and promises maintenance savings because "they don't burn out like fluorescents" and outrageously more expensive, a reasonable expectation is that they include a warranty better than fluorescent. Parts & labor for 5 year for the entire thing.
 
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OP
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cybrdyke

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Lol, nothing I haven't posted elsewhere already.

Simply put, if you're getting LEDs installed, go through a company that existed for 10-15 years. Listen to all that sales pitch about maintenance, life. Tell him to "warranty it, parts and labor". Simple as that.

Commercial fluorescent ballasts are generally warrantied with some labor allowance. Since LEDs claim to be superior to fluorescents and promises maintenance savings because "they don't burn out like fluorescents" and outrageously more expensive, a reasonable expectation is that they include a warranty better than fluorescent. Parts & labor for 5 year for the entire thing.

OMG, more B.S.
I'm not gonna spend my time doing YOUR googling for you, but Acuity's warranty on their LED fixtures is 5 years, and they are the biggest manufacturer. All the other big manufacturers are the same

Your fluorescent fixtures aren't warranted for that long. Why are you trying to fool people into thinking that they are? A fluorescent fixture is a piece of bent metal, made by the fixture manufacturer. It has wire, sockets, lamps, and ballasts....all made by others. The only thing in that fixture that has a warranty for 5 years is the electronic ballast, and that's only if its a name brand.
When something in a fluorescent fixture goes bad, the fixture manufacturer immediately backs out and points his finger at the maker of the item that failed. This makes the consumer chase around either the lamp manufacturer, the ballast manufacturer, or the socket maker....all of whom he had no dealings with.
The ballast is warranted for 5 years, the lamps probably 1 or 2, the sockets for 1 year, no warranty on wire or bent metal. Again, the 5 year warranty by the manufacturer of the LED fixture is vastly superior to the fluorescent warranty.
CD
 

Platonic Solid

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Better check the date code, if it exists, on that LED fixture: "five (5) years from the date of shipment from Acuity’s facilities."
Level of whole fixture warranties (Fluorescent or LED) are directly related to whether you're purchasing a budget grade product or a premium product. We warranty all our fixtures for 5 years. If the ballast dies prematurely, we replace it and we deal with the original manufacturer. We even replaced 1,000s of ballasts at our cost when that manufacturer went out of business. It's not quite a LED Good, FLuorescent Bad, black and white scenario.
 
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cybrdyke

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Better check the date code, if it exists, on that LED fixture: "five (5) years from the date of shipment from Acuity’s facilities."
Level of whole fixture warranties (Fluorescent or LED) are directly related to whether you're purchasing a budget grade product or a premium product. We warranty all our fixtures for 5 years. If the ballast dies prematurely, we replace it and we deal with the original manufacturer. We even replaced 1,000s of ballasts at our cost when that manufacturer went out of business. It's not quite a LED Good, FLuorescent Bad, black and white scenario.

That's premium customer service. Good on you.
 
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LifeLongWNYer

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I would be happy to buy more LED's IF, and I mean IF something happened at the store when I take back one that failed. I HAVE tried some LED's ( and this same thing happened to me when CFL's came out ) and they died WAY short of their advertised life expectancy. When I took them back, the people in the store told me that I must have had them it "too hot" or "too cold" of a location, or I "over-voltaged" them.

Hey, if I am going to get the same life from a LED, or a CFL, as I do from an incandescent and not get a replacement when the new technology bulb blows, I want to pay the same price as the incandescent.

I have put the new bulbs in my garage, right alongside old, really old, incandescents, and the LEDs have failed but the incandescents are still working.


JBP




.
 

kd3pc

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Life Long

I have had the same experience, premium price for a bulb and it fails quick, warranty is useless, "it has to be mounted vertical" it was.."too much heat" in the socket...I have no control over that.

Cree replaced one, but I kept the box and the receipt, I had to pay to ship it back to them, and I did, just for the principal. They sent me a new one, would have been cheaper to trash the dead one and buy a new one.

LED, just like 90% of the CFLs, highly over rated and under delivered.
 

Elginz

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Oconto, WI
I still have a CFL, although not all that compact, from some time in the mid 80s. One of around 6 or so original ones I owned. No longer use it every day. I had 2 until about 5 years ago. Of course nothing since has lasted, including the LEDs.
 

Electric_Light

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Messages
74
Better check the date code, if it exists, on that LED fixture: "five (5) years from the date of shipment from Acuity’s facilities."

Level of whole fixture warranties (Fluorescent or LED) are directly related to whether you're purchasing a budget grade product or a premium product. We warranty all our fixtures for 5 years. If the ballast dies prematurely, we replace it and we deal with the original manufacturer. We even replaced 1,000s of ballasts at our cost when that manufacturer went out of business. It's not quite a LED Good, FLuorescent Bad, black and white scenario.

Energy service sales companies and VCs love LEDs because they're extremely expensive and provide immediate cash flow. The inadequate warranty terms show they have a parachute built-in to protect themselves from LED risks. Unsold inventory and reduction in prices make "parts only" warranty down the road makes warranty claims fairly cheap, but labor cost usually don't go down and even LED brands know that uncertainty of performance stability of LEDs and a stringent (no worse than RE80 fluorescent) future performance guarantee on LEDs can dig themselves into a tremendous future liability expense. Warranty obligations is like an insurance premium. If not sold as an additional extended warranty, it is included into the selling price.

Shareholders don't like shares that carry predictable high risk future liability like a high cost warranty obligations on products with unknown long term durability.

LED sales pitch usually says "maintenance savings..." "LEDs don't burn out" so the only fair package includes a policy that lets you make a claim for maintenance expenses or hold them liable to provide the maintenance that's made necessary because of LED.

Induction is similar to LED. Lamps don't "burn out" and Icetron system includes 5 year warranty on lamp/driver system. "OSRAM SYLVANIA will provide a free replacement ballast and labor allowance in accordance with the “Labor Options” set forth below."

https://assets.sylvania.com/assets/...S140.f5cd63f4-f4b2-44ef-b6d3-957896033c3c.pdf

GE and Philips have similar terms.

I would be happy to buy more LED's IF, and I mean IF something happened at the store when I take back one that failed. I HAVE tried some LED's ( and this same thing happened to me when CFL's came out ) and they died WAY short of their advertised life expectancy. When I took them back, the people in the store told me that I must have had them it "too hot" or "too cold" of a location, or I "over-voltaged" them.

What about labor allowance to have a licensed person replace them or that they send someone to do so as expected in commercial environment? If this isn't true, the purported "maintenance savings" over fluorescent is a powerless claim. For residential products, where the resident replace their own bulbs, "maintenance saving" is not something that can be quantified as an expense.
 
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Platonic Solid

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LEDs rule in cold temp, Fluorescent rules in hot temps.
Ironically only the classic inefficient incandescent rules in both temps.
 
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