Lift installed... but is it safe???

[RustyBeechwood]

Hi all,

I've owned a name-brand, high-quality, ~10,000-lb. 2-post lift since new and it's provided trouble-free service for almost 15 years. I recently moved to the southeast and brought my lift with me.

Wanting an OEM-quality install, I contracted with the manufacturer's regional office. Unfortunately, the regional office sub-contracted out to an installer that while seemed generally knowledgeable about lifts (I was present during the install) I now have some reason to doubt. Here are my concerns, in order of increasing severity:

1. Installer told me after the install that they had never installed this brand of lift before. (I am not that concerned about this - the lift works fine.)

2. Installer, nor regional office, never asked me about the characteristics of my garage floor. I do know that is was poured in the late 1980s, has a very smooth and crack-free surface, and is at least 5 inches thick (having drilled a test hole - I did that, not them). But I have no idea about PSI or whether there is any internal reinforcement.

3. Installer used 3/4" anchors. This in itself is not a problem because the lift manual says 3/4" or 1" anchors are acceptable; the problem is that I believe the anchors were overtightened. I believe this because when I asked how much I should periodically re-torque them to, the installer said 100-110 ft-lb. (My understanding is that a proper torque for 3/4" anchors is more like 70 ft-lb and their stated value is more appropriate for 1" anchors.)

I lost my best friend recently and have become acutely aware of my own mortality. The last thing I need is for my garage floor to crack or (I think more likely) the anchors pulling out of the floor. I know this can happen based on other discussions on this forum, and that it can happen months or years after an install.

Please let me know any thoughts that can help me decide what steps I can take to ensure safety. I'd really appreciate it if your input is fact- and experience-driven and not simply based on conjecture. I believe there are tests that can be done in terms of pull-out strength and the like but am not sure if it is necessary. Thanks in advance.

 

[matt_i]

Question, what kind of anchors?

I know I'm a broken record on this. Especially if they used drop-in-anchors, drill those light duty things out and put in epoxy anchors. A properly done epoxy anchor is around 5x as strong in tension.

Why? One wants to put in a medium sized manufacturing robot on a steel baseplate. Its a dynamic, moving load. If one puts in 4 epoxied anchors it will be there until you decide to remove it. 24 wedge/stud anchors won't hold it in place, in the same service, it will loosen up. I've seen that in person. And the drop-in anchors are even lighter duty than that.

One wants to put in a jib crane on a flat floor. The proper anchors called out by the OEM manufacturer are epoxied anchors. No engineer would sign his name on using a lower rated device.

I have seen an idiot stick out one (1) arm on a 2 post lift and use it to pick up a corner of the vehicle to change a tire. If you think about the forces involved there, that's one reason to go for max design strength. It is very difficult to design something for 100% of the population without someone hurting themselves.

 

[930dreamer]

Sounds like the epoxy anchors are the way to go. As I get older I find myself looking for the 100% done correct route.

 

[gorilla]

Have you checked the torque on the anchors? If you were there for the installation did you see him set the anchors with a torque wrench? If the anchors are not overtightened your probably OK.

 

[pattenp]

The concrete would be a concern to me not knowing the PSI especially if there is no rebar or wire mesh. You typically see lifts needing 3500 to 4000 PSI concrete. I imagine it would be expensive to have the concrete tested. As to the bolts I can only speak to my lift specs which uses 3/4 anchors and they are to be set at 150Ft lbs and then maintained at 80 ft lbs.

 

[tinmanwpk]

Testing will only cost $50 tops. But you will have to cut out a test plug.

 

[sublimate]

I don't think over-tightened anchors would just pull out - instead overtightening makes it more likely that the concrete will crack and then fail.

So I'd watch for cracks while continuing to enjoy the lift.

 

[pstnbly]

The anchors are set now if there is no apparent damage to the concrete why don't you just set the anchors to the appropriate torque value? As far as the mortality issue, lift are designed with a redundancy factor. Yes we have all heard the stories and seen pictures of the aftermath, There are a lot of clowns out there and lifts in commercial settings see many times the cycles that a private shop lift will see. You should just use your best judgment and due diligence when putting vehicles on your lift. How you use it is just as important as the installation.

 

[justtools]

I work in a car dealership and the building is 50 years old as is the concrete. we have 28 lifts and about 10 years ago someone was working beside me and while the engine was racing about 2k a trouble light that got stuck put the car in reverse. It went straight back and quick, Across the Isle was a car up on a lift. the runaway car slammed into one of the posts of a 2 post lift. The car on the lift rocked but did not fall. It did bust up the concrete that held the 1 post but the car never fell. Our shops concrete is only 3.5 inches thick.

 

[walrus]

2 post 10,000lb rotary uses 3/4 anchors. Older instructions were 150 lbs, newer I think are 120 ft lbs

Why not goggle lift install instructions and check torque values for the anchors instead of guessing?

 

[bczygan]

Having a small panic attack, are we?

It really sounds like you are fine.

But if you just can't stand the suspense, you could send the lift to me. I'm willing to take my chances.

Bill

 

[RustyBeechwood]

2 post 10,000lb rotary uses 3/4 anchors. Older instructions were 150 lbs, newer I think are 120 ft lbs

Why not goggle lift install instructions and check torque values for the anchors instead of guessing?

I have the lift install instructions from when I purchased the lift, so I know the exact values the lift manufacturer recommends.

BUT those values were from whatever anchors the manufacturer included with the lift. I have no idea what brand of anchors the 3rd party installers used this time around, but they made them way tighter than the manufacturer recommended for the OE anchors and I am hoping this is because they are a slightly different style, material, or manufacturer of anchor.

I think overall I'm just put off by the fact that the manufacturer's regional office (which apparently is owned independently and just uses their name) hired some unknown installer they had never used before and had no involvement other than coming to pick up the check (via certified funds and before the install was even completed, mind you).

 

[walrus]

I have the lift install instructions from when I purchased the lift, so I know the exact values the lift manufacturer recommends.

BUT those values were from whatever anchors the manufacturer included with the lift. I have no idea what brand of anchors the 3rd party installers used this time around, but they made them way tighter than the manufacturer recommended for the OE anchors and I am hoping this is because they are a slightly different style, material, or manufacturer of anchor.

I think overall I'm just put off by the fact that the manufacturer's regional office (which apparently is owned independently and just uses their name) hired some unknown installer they had never used before and had no involvement other than coming to pick up the check (via certified funds and before the install was even completed, mind you).

Rotary uses hilti, it's the same hilti anchor you can buy at a industrial fastener place.

 

[frankush]

I think the fact that you're questioning the third party installers business practices is what has you flustered about the install of the anchors. Pipefitters use a lot of Hilti 3/4 HDI drop in anchors to hang pipe off of ceilings. I've seen lots of 10 and 12 inch pipe supported by 3/4 rod spaced 10 foot apart. Problems can occur when these anchors are not set properly. When the wedge in the anchor is set with a sledge it will have a certain sound when fully expanded. I have to assume your installers would know that much. If they could torque the bolts to 110 ft lbs, I don't think they'll be pulling out anytime soon. I'd use the lift and keep an eye on the anchors if it concerns you. I'd be more concerned about low strength concrete than the anchors.

 

[slip knot]

3rd party installers are the rule now rather than the exception. No-one wants to pay an installer to set around waiting for a unit to sell.

 

[davejo]

The concrete would be a concern to me not knowing the PSI especially if there is no rebar or wire mesh. You typically see lifts needing 3500 to 4000 PSI concrete. I imagine it would be expensive to have the concrete tested. As to the bolts I can only speak to my lift specs which uses 3/4 anchors and they are to be set at 150Ft lbs and then maintained at 80 ft lbs.

So you 'set' your anchors at 150, then loosened them back up and snugged them down to 80?

Or you wait until they fall below 80 when checked before you tighten them further?

I used Simpson wedge all 3/4 which called for 150.

 

[sberry]

If the bolts are tight leave it alone. Stop calling everyone you can think of during a panic attack.

 

[575cat]

many o lifts have been installed in old buildings , old gas stations with old concrete of who knows psi rating probably none and thicknesses of marginal to thin and nobody cared or worried about it just used the **** out of it .

 

[sanddan]

My Rotary lift was installed by the local distributer and the initial torque was 180 ft-lbs. They were looking for the anchor to hold at that torque to insure that there was sufficient concrete thickness and strength. They said I should periodically check the torque at 120 ft-lbs. I had one anchor that took a while to reach the initial 180 and they said to keep an eye on it. If it wouldn't hold the 120 ft-lbs at later checks they would replace it with an epoxy anchor. So far (2 yrs) it's held just fine. I wanted them to do the install for extra piece of mind.

 

[wssix99]

Sounds like the epoxy anchors are the way to go. As I get older I find myself looking for the 100% done correct route.

They are not the way to go. If they were, the manufacturers would instruct to use them.

These fasteners are under tension and most commonly available epoxies suffer from a creep phenomenon: http://www.designnews.com/document....pPParams=ind_183,aid_220176&dfpLayout=article

A normal stand-alone machine bolted anchored to the floor wouldn't have this problem, but a lift would because it makes a structural system with the floor. I'm sure there are some appropriate anchors out there, but the Orange Satan would not sell them and it would be best to consult the lift manufacturer first, before choosing one.

 

[wssix99]

Please let me know any thoughts that can help me decide what steps I can take to ensure safety.

Did you call your lift manufacturer for guidance? I would expect the proper torque would be mostly a function of the size of the anchor and the material it is made out of.

 

[pstnbly]

They are not the way to go. If they were, the manufacturers would instruct to use them.

I tend to agree, a lot more variables with epoxy anchors than a wedge bolt.

 

[RustyBeechwood]

So I just re-torqued the anchor nuts to 70 ft-lbs per lift manufacturer (not anchor manufacturer - again, don't know who made them) spec of 60-80 ft-lb.

Probably half of them were loose. Anything to be concerned about? Again, the lift has only been installed since December and has been used perhaps 20 times. Are the anchors pulling out?

 

[sberry]

Tighten them up some and feel them out. Get them farmer tight once and they will stop creeping so much. At that tension I would expect them to loosen some in a few lifts. 70# aint squat especially if the threads are dry, I actually serviced mine not too long ago, backed them off a little one by one and sprayed with a little liq wrench and tighten them back up. I didn't use a torque wrench but a 1/2 HF bar.
I have installed quite a few of these bolts and can really feel when the anchor is tightening and working correctly.
You can torque a 3/8 Hilti to 80# in good concrete and it will snap right off before it pulls out.

 

[tgj7]

They are not the way to go. If they were, the manufacturers would instruct to use them.

These fasteners are under tension and most commonly available epoxies suffer from a creep phenomenon: http://www.designnews.com/document....pPParams=ind_183,aid_220176&dfpLayout=article

A normal stand-alone machine bolted anchored to the floor wouldn't have this problem, but a lift would because it makes a structural system with the floor. I'm sure there are some appropriate anchors out there, but the Orange Satan would not sell them and it would be best to consult the lift manufacturer first, before choosing one.

Interesting and informative link.

 

[pattenp]

So you 'set' your anchors at 150, then loosened them back up and snugged them down to 80?

Or you wait until they fall below 80 when checked before you tighten them further?

I used Simpson wedge all 3/4 which called for 150.

The installers set at 150 then backed off and tightened to 80.