lifting/reattaching ceiling in old house?

[Innovate1]

Not a garage question but hoping I can get some advice given the experience of the people here... Trying to help a friend with a house built in 1931. Single story. The ceiling in one of the bedrooms is sagging and has a crack perpendicular to the ceiling joists. They were thinking the roof was leaking and causing the issue but no signs of water below or in the attic. I went into the attic thinking the framing might be sagging but it isn't. The ceiling has pulled away from the joists by about 1-2 inches. I could see some nails that were bright - looked like fairly recent nails but I don't think anything has been done to the ceiling in many years - I will confirm that. None of the other areas have any obvious ceiling issues.

I advised them not to sleep there as the ceiling might collapse and some simple bracing was put in. Think the ceiling fan was helping hold it up. :O

The ceiling isn't breaking in other areas so my thought was to put some heavy plywood and/or a frame similar to a floor under the ceiling with a number of jacks and slowly push the ceiling up to the joists. Then screw it to the joists - thinking construction screws driven slightly below the surface so they can be hidden. Not sure exactly what the ceiling material is. I didn't see any lath from the attic. They called it stucco but that may just be the surface coating - I have a fair amount of construction experience but don't know much about construction methods that old.

They main issue I see with trying to push the ceiling back up is the resistance from the existing nails and cracking from uneven pressure when lifting. It seems like lifting would be a lot less of a job than tearing it out and replacing with drywall. One issue is locating the framing through the ceiling - I doubt stud sensors will work but drilling a few holes beside the joists from above would give their location.

Any suggestions on how to do this? What's the chance that lifting the ceiling will work? Seems like a reasonable plan to me but their "very good" handyman didn't want to tackle it. I told them to give him my number to talk about what I had seen with the framing but as soon as he heard I was an engineer he had the common response that engineers don't have any real world usefulness (or something like that) and didn't want to talk to me.

I am not really wanting to do this myself but do want to help them out. They don't have any idea of what is involved or where to find someone to fix this for them. I do most of this sort of thing myself on my own home and live just far enough from them that I don't have any suggestions for who to call. I have enough trouble finding good people to do the jobs bigger than I want to tackle for myself.

 

[NUTTSGT]

This is plaster and lathe pulling away from the trusses/floor joist above ?

Simplest is probably tearing it out and drywalling it.

 

[KenC]

first thing is identify the material that you're dealing with. Really strange situation that I don't think I've ever heard described before.

I can't think of any material that would behave the way you describe unless maybe plywood or some other sheet material that is dense enough to pull the nails without pulling through the sheet first.

Maybe plywood with a smooth plaster coat? Pics top and bottom and maybe drill a hole or two to take a look at the layers?

 

[Innovate1]

Pretty sure it isn't plywood. Too old for that.

Cutting a small hole to check the material is a good idea. I could use a bi-metal hole saw since there may be wire mesh. Or maybe just dig into it a bit with a knife. I didn't see lath above and it is usually obvious from the back side, at least what I have seen.

 

[jar944]

It's been 30 years but since the remodel, but my parents had a late 30s early 40s house that had plaster over button board (no lathe).

 

[Walkers]

Your plan is what I would do as well.

 

[nadogail]

I would avoid getting involved in an old house in the East St Louis area. The commute is too long.

 

[wssix99]

There is a TV show for situations like this...

Here is the video on repairing cracked plaster ceilings: https://www.thisoldhouse.com/ceilings/21017104/how-to-repair-a-plaster-ceiling

 

[Wrench97]

There is a TV show for situations like this...

Here is the video on repairing cracked plaster ceilings: https://www.thisoldhouse.com/ceilings/21017104/how-to-repair-a-plaster-ceiling

Was about to post the same video, use to be pretty common with lath and plaster for it to sag, the Plaster Buttons keep the screw from going through the plaster.

 

[mikedodge]

I'd be inclined to take it down and do it new. You'd have to remove the plaster in quite a few areas to screw it up properly so you're into patching and with the buckling that means the finished has also moved do greatly increases the chance of something coming loose and falling later on or cracking over time. Putting pressure on it even with plywood also risks loosening some of it up.
Tear it down, stick up drywall and call it done.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

What can you see from above? I know you said there isn't lath but there were other materials (including mesh) used as a base for plaster. Has the base material pulled down below the joists? Also may be possible to take down a light fixture to get a better idea of what you are dealing with.
IMO the best fix is usually to tear it all out and replace. It may be possible to jack it up and sheet the entire ceiling with a layer of drywall screwed to the joists.

Unfortunately I've seen a lot of older homes where someone removed walls to make the rooms larger and the result was a sagging ceiling after a few years.
No good fix for that other than replacing the support lost when teh wall was removed.

 

[The Cobbler]

hard to visualize what's going on but if it is sagging as you pointed out I would at minimum cut an inspection hole . but to jack up the ceiling & reattach would probably be less than ideal. you would have a lot of cracks & repairs I'm sure. easiest solution is probably to rip it all down, and re drywall .

 

[Innovate1]

I would avoid getting involved in an old house in the East St Louis area. The commute is too long.

The house isn't in East St. Louis (that would actually be closer for me). The house is in Missouri. Not too far from where I work actually.

Or perhaps your were talking about YOUR commute? That would be a long trip.

 

[APEowner]

I think the "correct" way to fix that is to rip it out and drywall. However, I once fixed a similar problem with an otherwise intact sagging lath and plaster ceiling by pushing it back up in place with some 2x4s laid flat against the ceiling lined up with the rafters. Once it was in place I screwed the 2x4s into the rafters and then skinned them with fake beams. I use reclaimed lumber because we had some but you could use any of the typical fake beam options. I drilled some holes next to the rafters through the ceiling from above so I could see where the rafters were from below. The 2x4s and fake beams covered them.

That repair was in place for at least a decade and as far as I know is still there.

 

[Innovate1]

What can you see from above? I know you said there isn't lath but there were other materials (including mesh) used as a base for plaster. Has the base material pulled down below the joists? Also may be possible to take down a light fixture to get a better idea of what you are dealing with.
IMO the best fix is usually to tear it all out and replace. It may be possible to jack it up and sheet the entire ceiling with a layer of drywall screwed to the joists.

Unfortunately I've seen a lot of older homes where someone removed walls to make the rooms larger and the result was a sagging ceiling after a few years.
No good fix for that other than replacing the support lost when teh wall was removed.

No one removed a wall. The rooms are small and obviously original. I stated the framing wasn't sagging which would be the issue with a removed wall. Completely different issues. Yes, the base has pulled away from the joists.

 

[Innovate1]

There is a TV show for situations like this...

Here is the video on repairing cracked plaster ceilings: https://www.thisoldhouse.com/ceilings/21017104/how-to-repair-a-plaster-ceiling

Thanks! I think this is button board or some variant of it from a little reading and searching I just did. Will take a look for plaster buttons.

 

[Wrench97]

From the age there is a good chance there may be asbestos in it.

 

[Innovate1]

A couple Lowe's stores in the old part of town have them in stock! Probably something similar available other places but called something else.

 

[Dumber than lumber]

Thanks! I think this is button board or some variant of it from a little reading and searching I just did. Will take a look for plaster buttons.

There are some YouToob videos showing this kind of plaster ceiling repair. Technique seems to be half the battle, the right materials is the second half, and experience is the last half of it.

 

[txvwnut]

I had to do this in my house but I was dealing with a drywall ceiling. What I did was made a couple of T shaped jack posts and slowly jacked the sagging ceiling back in place then secured with screws.

 

[Firebrick43]

in the 30's they were starting to get away from wood lathe and going to a gypsum product similar to drywall. It came in 2'x4' panels and had holes formed in it about 3/4" for the plaster to key into. The panels were nailed up and then a gypsum based plaster was put onto. This evolved into the standard veneer plaster systems we have today.

I agree with others, if its sagging rip it out. My fathers house (built by my great great grandfather in 1932 has this plaster system. The walls are in great shape but the ceiling has done what you have said. They have screwed it back up and patched but it looks like utter &)#$*.

You can not match the texture of old plaster in a patch job. I have yet to see someone who can

If you want to match it you can pull it down, screw up modern plaster board, and verneer plaster the ceiling. I have not been brave enough to do a ceiling but have done all the wall in the addition I put up a few years ago. In some ways its faster as there is no sanding and one coat is put on immediately after the other. But your fore arms will scream at the end of the day. Hint, a helper with a long nap roller can make the job go a LOT faster than trying to use a hawk to get it on the wall. And spring the money for a pre broke in carbon steel 14" towel. I have a marshalltown and it does so much better that a SS or trowel that hasn't been broke in.

 

[Uncle murph]

Not a garage question but hoping I can get some advice given the experience of the people here... Trying to help a friend with a house built in 1931. Single story. The ceiling in one of the bedrooms is sagging and has a crack perpendicular to the ceiling joists. They were thinking the roof was leaking and causing the issue but no signs of water below or in the attic. I went into the attic thinking the framing might be sagging but it isn't. The ceiling has pulled away from the joists by about 1-2 inches. I could see some nails that were bright - looked like fairly recent nails but I don't think anything has been done to the ceiling in many years - I will confirm that. None of the other areas have any obvious ceiling issues.

I advised them not to sleep there as the ceiling might collapse and some simple bracing was put in. Think the ceiling fan was helping hold it up. :O

The ceiling isn't breaking in other areas so my thought was to put some heavy plywood and/or a frame similar to a floor under the ceiling with a number of jacks and slowly push the ceiling up to the joists. Then screw it to the joists - thinking construction screws driven slightly below the surface so they can be hidden. Not sure exactly what the ceiling material is. I didn't see any lath from the attic. They called it stucco but that may just be the surface coating - I have a fair amount of construction experience but don't know much about construction methods that old.

They main issue I see with trying to push the ceiling back up is the resistance from the existing nails and cracking from uneven pressure when lifting. It seems like lifting would be a lot less of a job than tearing it out and replacing with drywall. One issue is locating the framing through the ceiling - I doubt stud sensors will work but drilling a few holes beside the joists from above would give their location.

Any suggestions on how to do this? What's the chance that lifting the ceiling will work? Seems like a reasonable plan to me but their "very good" handyman didn't want to tackle it. I told them to give him my number to talk about what I had seen with the framing but as soon as he heard I was an engineer he had the common response that engineers don't have any real world usefulness (or something like that) and didn't want to talk to me.

I am not really wanting to do this myself but do want to help them out. They don't have any idea of what is involved or where to find someone to fix this for them. I do most of this sort of thing myself on my own home and live just far enough from them that I don't have any suggestions for who to call. I have enough trouble finding good people to do the jobs bigger than I want to tackle for myself.

I would suggest pushing the ceiling back up but don’t use plywood,use regular framing placed perpendicular to the rafters.this will allow the failed fasteners to pop through the plaster where they can be pulled and replaced with slightly longer screws as well as locating the rafters for the installation of additional screws.A little filling,sanding and paint and it will be as good as new

 

[claymont]

Strengthening a Lath-and-Plaster Ceiling

 

[Prospecter]

Over 38 years, I have replaced all but one ceiling with sheetrock in my c. 1840s home. The plaster washers work better on walls. The problem is that, when the plaster sags on the ceiling, the broken keys (the plaster that squished up between the lath,) drops down between the lath and the plaster so you can't push it back up. On walls, the broken keys often fall down inside the wall, so it is more likely that you can successfully reattach the plaster with plaster washers.

 

[Innovate1]

Over 38 years, I have replaced all but one ceiling with sheetrock in my c. 1840s home. The plaster washers work better on walls. The problem is that, when the plaster sags on the ceiling, the broken keys (the plaster that squished up between the lath,) drops down between the lath and the plaster so you can't push it back up. On walls, the broken keys often fall down inside the wall, so it is more likely that you can successfully reattach the plaster with plaster washers.

Appreciate the comments but the plaster hasn't separated from the lath. From everything I was able to see the lath and plaster have both pulled away from the framing. The only thing to restrict pushing it back up are the nails that pulled out of the framing. Would be great if they popped out when pushed up as it would make it easy to find the joists but doubting they would pop out that easy.

Makes me think the other ceilings might do the same thing so maybe adding some screws in the other rooms would be a good idea.

 

[frankd]

I think the best thing to do would be to rip it all down and drywall. But with those old houses the joists probably wont be straight/even so you'd need to do quite a bit of shimming.
If you can push it up at all, maybe you can run some 1x3 or something perpendicular to the ceiling joists but be sure the screws are long enough to penetrate into the joists. Then attach drywall to the 1x3? its alot of work but easier than taking the ceiling down Id think