light on opener not working

[eyefish1]

Would you know what this is called?
If I knew what it was called, I could search for it.
I know what it does (or at least what it is supposed to do)
But it no longer works.
I tried everything.
It turns on the garage lite on the automatic garage door opener when you
open & close the door.
120 V A/C current heats the windings on the heating element on the
bi-metallic top arm/tab, & causes it to bend slightly, so that it touches
the points, hence supplying 120V A/C to the lite.
Then when it cools (when power is interupted after the door opens or closes)
it straightens out, & cuts power to the lite.
Time lite is on/off is adjustable with the adjustment screw. (or it used to
be when it worked)

The fine wiring wrapped around the bi-metallic arm had broken numerous
times, & I soldered it, but this time I really don't see what is wrong with
it.

I need a new one.

My garage opener is old, & obsolete, but it is an industrial model, &
extremely powerful & dependable.
My door requires an industrial model because my door weighs about 400 lbs, &
is 18 feet.

Bonus points if you can tell me where to buy one of these heating elements
(or at least tell me what it is called so I can search for it)

I can send the pics in full resolution if you want them.

Al

 

[dadsEH]

get with the 21 century and buy a motion sensor. that thing looks like it would burn down my garage if it shorted out. LOL

 

[GMBracing]

that is athermal time delay relay. It's kinda old school

 

[eyefish1]

Thanks

 

[eyefish1]

that is athermal time delay relay. It's kinda old school

Yep, it's old school. You have any idea where I might be able to get one, or something that can replace it?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If u can't find a replacement part for that ancient piece of hardware, u could build your own modern relay circuit with a time delay chip!

 

[eyefish1]

If u can't find a replacement part for that ancient piece of hardware, u could build your own modern relay circuit with a time delay chip!

I wouldn't know how.
I wouldn't know what components I would need to source, nor where to source them.
There MUST be some sort of device that could directly replace mine. I have searched around, but so far, can't find anything.
It's only to turn on a light, by golly. (with a delay)

 

[upndown]

That's simply called a Light Delay. Haven't seen one in many years! What make opener? Possibly a Vemco? Those were used on commercial drawbar operators and worked surprisingly well haha! I checked my dinosaur box, but no luck!! Sorry...

 

[eyefish1]

That's simply called a Light Delay. Haven't seen one in many years! What make opener? Possibly a Vemco? Those were used on commercial drawbar operators and worked surprisingly well haha! I checked my dinosaur box, but no luck!! Sorry...

I have to check the make of the opener.
Yes, it's a commercial drawbar opener. (I think that is what it's called)
Are you aware of anything that I can use to replace this obsolete Light Delay?

 

[frankush]

It's obsolete for a reason. By today's code standards, it would never fly. A motion sensor wired to a seperate light or all the garage lights would do what you want. If you can't do that, then hire an electrician. It's not a big job.

 

[eyefish1]

It's obsolete for a reason. By today's code standards, it would never fly. A motion sensor wired to a seperate light or all the garage lights would do what you want. If you can't do that, then hire an electrician. It's not a big job.

Yep, I guess you're right.
Although, I'd love to have it work as it did for the last 31 yrs.

 

[mdbeck1]

I have to check the make of the opener.
Yes, it's a commercial drawbar opener. (I think that is what it's called)
Are you aware of anything that I can use to replace this obsolete Light Delay?

I had a similar problem a year or two back. My Challenger garage door opener wouldn't work with the remote. It turns out that the remote was a separate piece on the back. I took the remote off, typed in the part number (google or yahoo) and I found a source. I think it was about $30.00.

The short story.... find a part number and let Yahoo (or Google) find it for you.

 

[eyefish1]

Here are pics of the unit, and the make & model number. I can send pics in full resolution directly to you if you supply your e-mail address

 

[mdbeck1]

Here are pics of the unit, and the make & model number. I can send pics in full resolution directly to you if you supply your e-mail address

I'm not having a lot of luck on the light but you can get parts here:
http://www.diy-garage-door-parts.com/Automatic-Doorman-Garage-Door-Parts-s/1868.htm

I saw several references to problems with them but not much about the light. I would guess that you could put a microswitch on the rail of your existing opener that would close the circuit to a light bulb if that is what you want to do.

 

[larry_g]

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Time-Delay-Relay-5WMK0?Pid=search

You could replace that with a time delay relay similar to what is linked above. I BELIEVE that a delay off is what you want as it will turn on as soon as it gets a signal and then hold on for the time period set by the timer. So pick up the signal wire that activates the heater on the old switch, and use a N.O. contact set and your off to the races.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[eyefish1]

I'm not having a lot of luck on the light but you can get parts here:
http://www.diy-garage-door-parts.com/Automatic-Doorman-Garage-Door-Parts-s/1868.htm

I looked on that site & then I e-mailed them asking about my part.
This was his reply:

*Sorry but those parts are not available anymore.*

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Probably just gonna have to make your own!

 

[eyefish1]

Probably just gonna have to make your own!

I already woulda if I knew how.

 

[Carman]

You may run a file between the two contacts and clean them up and it may work again. This is typically a problem with these, doesn't need replacement it just burns the contacts slightly every time it's used after a while they are so charred they don't make a electrical circuit. Have seen this before a lot and works fine, happens on all types of breakers and relays.

 

[eyefish1]

You may run a file between the two contacts and clean them up and it may work again. This is typically a problem with these, doesn't need replacement it just burns the contacts slightly every time it's used after a while they are so charred they don't make a electrical circuit. Have seen this before a lot and works fine, happens on all types of breakers and relays.

Yep.
I'm aware.
I tried that.
The problem is in the heater element (see the pics)
Note the incredibly fine wire wrapped around the top blade.
That fine wire broke a few times, & I re-soldered it.
That wire heats up when current is applied & it deflects (bends) that top blade enough so that it makes contact with the points of the blade below it.
This switch uses a 'bi-metallic system'.
However, that wire is now too short, & not enough to deflect that top blade.
Re-wiring it is not an option.
I need a new complete bi-metallic switch. (or a similar switch system)

 

[Carman]

Gotcha, sorry, didn't see that the wire had already broken and been fixed

 

[madosta]

The function of "opening switch contacts after x amount of time and v voltage has been applied" is simple in function, but you'll have to look around for solutions.

Something like this might work and it's adjustable up to ten minutes.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-Universal-Delay-On-Make-Timer-Relay-ICM102-ICM102B-/270786220370

I would check your signaling voltage - maybe the power lead to the motor turning the door - once that stops, the light delay begins. It will probably be 120vac then.

Also, how much time do you want the light on for? Fixed time delays are usually shorter than what you'd want.

 

[eyefish1]

The function of "opening switch contacts after x amount of time and v voltage has been applied" is simple in function, but you'll have to look around for solutions.

Something like this might work and it's adjustable up to ten minutes.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-Universal-Delay-On-Make-Timer-Relay-ICM102-ICM102B-/270786220370

I would check your signaling voltage - maybe the power lead to the motor turning the door - once that stops, the light delay begins. It will probably be 120vac then.

Also, how much time do you want the light on for? Fixed time delays are usually shorter than what you'd want.

WOW! That looks perfect!
Thanks!
(I would like the lite on about a minute or so, so that relay you recommended looks perfect....possibly better than the original)
I'm gonna order it.

 

[larry_g]

WOW! That looks perfect!
Thanks!
(I would like the lite on about a minute or so, so that relay you recommended looks perfect....possibly better than the original)
I'm gonna order it.

I don't think that is what you want. That relay will allow the light to come on sometime after you activate the door and will turn the light off when the signal is removed. I believe what you want is a light to come on when the door starts to open and then stays on for some time after the door stops moving or a delay off timer, like I posted earlier.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[eyefish1]

I don't think that is what you want. That relay will allow the light to come on sometime after you activate the door and will turn the light off when the signal is removed. I believe what you want is a light to come on when the door starts to open and then stays on for some time after the door stops moving or a delay off timer, like I posted earlier.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mars2-Unive...338?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19b380123a

This is a delay-on-*break*-relay.
(the other one was a delay-on-*make*-relay, which was absolutely wrong for
my needs)
I think this is what I need?

Thoughts?

 

[eyefish1]

The function of "opening switch contacts after x amount of time and v voltage has been applied" is simple in function, but you'll have to look around for solutions.

Something like this might work and it's adjustable up to ten minutes.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-Universal-Delay-On-Make-Timer-Relay-ICM102-ICM102B-/270786220370

I would check your signaling voltage - maybe the power lead to the motor turning the door - once that stops, the light delay begins. It will probably be 120vac then.

Also, how much time do you want the light on for? Fixed time delays are usually shorter than what you'd want.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mars2-Unive...338?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19b380123a

This is a delay-on-*break*-relay.
(the other one was a delay-on-*make*-relay, which was absolutely wrong for
my needs)
I think this is what I need?

Thoughts?

 

[larry_g]

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...ol/RelaysTimers/TimingRelays/index.htm#tabs-2

In the above link click in the instructions tab and it will explain the differences in SOME timer relays. Your link above is a safety relay that prevents the starting of a compressor that has just shut down. The delay off relay is what you want. like this one Delay off relay

lg
no neat sig line

 

[eyefish1]

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...ol/RelaysTimers/TimingRelays/index.htm#tabs-2

In the above link click in the instructions tab and it will explain the differences in SOME timer relays. Your link above is a safety relay that prevents the starting of a compressor that has just shut down. The delay off relay is what you want. like this one Delay off relay


I see what you mean.
And I see you are right.
I think I will purchase the DELAY OFF Relay you recommend.
However, it is used, & will not come with instructions.
Can you tell me where (on the 5 terminals) I would attach my 3 wires?
I have a white constant 120V (for input), a purple 120V 'trigger' (which is parallel to my motor, so it will 'trigger' for about 10 seconds while the motor is running), & I have a white 120V output that will go to my lightbulb.

Thanks for your time.

 

[eyefish1]

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...ol/RelaysTimers/TimingRelays/index.htm#tabs-2

In the above link click in the instructions tab and it will explain the differences in SOME timer relays.


Why wouldn't I want a ''Single-Shot" delay-off relay, instead of a OFF delay relay?
Reading the 'instructions' you linked, the OFF delay timer will begin, & will have the light come on, AFTER the trigger is removed (ie: once the garage door is completely opened or completely closed)
Whereas the SINGLE-SHOT delay off relay will have the delay timer begin as soon as it sees a trigger.
Thoughts?

 

[larry_g]

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...ol/RelaysTimers/TimingRelays/index.htm#tabs-2

In the above link click in the instructions tab and it will explain the differences in SOME timer relays.


Why wouldn't I want a ''Single-Shot" delay-off relay, instead of a OFF delay relay?
Reading the 'instructions' you linked, the OFF delay timer will begin, & will have the light come on, AFTER the trigger is removed (ie: once the garage door is completely opened or completely closed)
Whereas the SINGLE-SHOT delay off relay will have the delay timer begin as soon as it sees a trigger.
Thoughts?

The delay off will turn the light on with the input trigger and then start the timer with the removal of the input signal. If you give it another input then the timer will restart if it is mid cycle.

The single shot turns on the light and the timer starts at that time and ignores any inputs till the timer times out and resets.

Either will work for what you want to do.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[eyefish1]

Yeah, the single-shot makes more sense to me.
I'd want the timer delay to begin as soon as the garage door begins to move, not when it's already completely open. (rarely do I ever stop the garage door mid-stream)
So have you seen a 'single-shot' relay advertised anywhere?
My other question was how would I wire that delay OFF relay that you pointed out on e-bay? It is used, & would come with no instructions.
Thanks

 

[larry_g]

With out seeing your whole wiring schematic I would not suggest how you would do this. There are a few different ways to do this and depending on your setup one would then have to select the relay to use. Some could be triggered off the power wire that did your heater in the old switch like the one I linked to in my first post, or the one on ebay would be triggered off the pushbutton for the door.

Can you find a schematic for the opener you have?

lg
no neat sig line

 

[madosta]

Shoot, sorry. I was half asleep earlier. I start thinking about how to make this work with the stuff in my garage.

So you really need a delay off timing module.

There's quite a few different ways to go about this, I like the solid state modules from Dayton like so:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAYTON-6A859-15-300-Sec-120V-1A-Time-Delay-Relay-G4-/230820978208

Or at zorotools

Will stay on up to 300 seconds, and will turn on as soon as power is applied to the coil.

 

[eyefish1]

With out seeing your whole wiring schematic I would not suggest how you would do this. There are a few different ways to do this and depending on your setup one would then have to select the relay to use. Some could be triggered off the power wire that did your heater in the old switch like the one I linked to in my first post, or the one on ebay would be triggered off the pushbutton for the door.

Can you find a schematic for the opener you have?

I strongly doubt I have the schematic......too old.

But I know that the old thermal switch that powered the light was wired this way:
3 contacts. (as shown in my original post)
One white contact has 120v constant. (let's call that the input)
One white contact (120v) goes to one leg of the lightbulb. (let's call that the output)
And finally, one purple contact (120v) that goes to the heating element of the bi-metallic blade. (let's call that the trigger) (that purple wire is paralled from the motor)(so that trigger wire provided 120v all while the motor is running)

The bi-metallic blade has one of the points contact on it. When the heated bi-metallic blade deflects & bends slightly, the point contact touches thenother point contact, & provides 120v output to the white wire that goes to the lightbulb.

 

[madosta]

FYI - If you stop removing the [/QUOTE] tags, your formatting will look better. Just type your reply after the end of the [/QUOTE]

 

[madosta]

FYI - If you stop removing the [ /QUOTE] tags, your formatting will look better. Just type your reply after the end of the [ /QUOTE]

Should look like this ^

 

[eyefish1]

Shoot, sorry. I was half asleep earlier. I start thinking about how to make this work with the stuff in my garage.

So you really need a delay off timing module.

There's quite a few different ways to go about this, I like the solid state modules from Dayton like so:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAYTON-6A859-15-300-Sec-120V-1A-Time-Delay-Relay-G4-/230820978208

Or at zorotools

Will stay on up to 300 seconds, and will turn on as soon as power is applied to the coil.

I feel like a pinball today going back & forth on these relays.
And I TRULY appreciate all you guys taking the time to help me with my issue.
I like this Dayton you mention. And it is well priced.
I want to be sure it will work for my application.
I a going to tell you how my old relay was wired.
Maybe you can tell me how to wire this Dayton?

The old thermal switch that powered the light was wired this way:
3 contacts. (as shown in my original post)
One white contact has 120v constant. (let's call that the input)
One white contact (120v) goes to one leg of the lightbulb. (let's call that the output)
And finally, one purple contact (120v) that goes to the heating element of the bi-metallic blade. (let's call that the trigger) (that purple wire is paralled from the motor)(so that trigger wire provided 120v all while the motor is running)

The bi-metallic blade has one of the points contact on it. When the heated bi-metallic blade deflects & bends slightly, the point contact touches thenother point contact, & provides 120v output to the white wire that goes to the lightbulb.
Where will my 3 wires go on this Dayton relay?

 

[madosta]

http://waterheatertimer.org/How-to-wire-Dayton-Off-Delay-Timer.html

 

[madosta]

Your purple contact would go to the in side of the "push button" in this instance. It wouldn't be momentary, but energized during the full cycle of the motor spinning.

120v constant would go in to 2.
Neutral to 3.
Light bulb to 1.

Is it ideal, maybe, maybe not.

 

[eyefish1]

Your purple contact would go to the in side of the "push button" in this instance. It wouldn't be momentary, but energized during the full cycle of the motor spinning.

120v constant would go in to 2.
Neutral to 3.
Light bulb to 1.

Is it ideal, maybe, maybe not.

Hi Madostsa,
You say that the purple wire (the 120V 'trigger' on my old obsolete thermal switch) is gonna go to the "in" side of the push-button contacts.
I'm not following....it seems that on the Dayton Wiring schematic, that the #6&7 pins on the relay need to be jumpered to energize the relay....not supplied with 120V power.
Thoughts?