Lighting advice needed

[Fisherguy]

I've been lurking this lighting section for a while getting ready to dod the lights in my 24 x 39 (inside dimensions) shop, I like the idea of a few fixtures rather than a buncha rows of 4 footers. If has a 12.5 foot ceiling.

Here's a couple pics of the shop, it's finished on the outside but bare studs inside; it has a 100 amp panel.

View media item 88396
View media item 88397

I've got 80 sheets of birch plywood for the walls and ceiling, would like to put a clear finish on it if it looks good natural, paint it white if not.
The window side will be for tools, workbench etc, compressor in the back corner, welder outlet between the doors and on the window side somewhere.
Other side will be for vehicles etc. If I was building it I woulda put in 1 big door instead of 2 10x10's. I'd like to plan for a hoist somewhere on the left side.

So people seem to like the GreenlighDepoot lights with dimmers

https://greenlightdepot.com/collections/led-linear-high-bays/products/lhb-110w-with-lens-and-w-o-lens?variant=36041819012

I saw a post where a guy use the Lithonia Lighting IBH 15000LM SD080 MD OZ10 50K 80CRI as an equivalent for these fixtures in the "Visual Interior Tool". I didn't know what values to use for the "Room Reflectances" so I left them at the defaults, set the "workplane" to 36".

Shooting for 75fc I get the following, it tells me 6 fixtures:
View media item 88398

Raising it to 100fc it tells me to use 8:
View media item 88399

OK, anything wrong with what I've come up with so far?

I'm thinking of wiring the left and right side to separate switches, if I'm working at the bench etc I can turn off the other side but I'm wondering how often I'd actually do that, maybe just 1 switch? Can you put the 120 and low voltage switches into the same electrical box?

So any feedback is welcome, I'm really hoping to hear from Platonic Solid on this, he seems to be the lighting guru. He comes up with those Dialux Reports and Id sure like to see that for my shop. Is there a site for that?

I don't think I've seen anyone using these high bay lights talk about smaller fixtures over their benches (but I coulda missed it), is there a favorite here for that application?

Has anyone coome up with a bracket to flush surface mount these? I know there was talk about it being similar to a few different brands. Guess I could just hang them from the little triangle thing they come with..?

We live in central BC, I'm going to order the fixtures and have them sent to Blaine just across the border in Wa and pick them up when I'm in the Vancouver area later this month, hope I don't get any faulty ones.

I think I've got a pretty good handle on this, but you know what they say, sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
Thx
Will

 

[cybrdyke]

Can you put the 120 and low voltage switches into the same electrical box?

You dont need to use two separate switches for 120 and low voltage. You can get a single device that will take care of both operations. Here's one example:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/wiringdevices/products/documents/spec_sheets2/decorator_0-10v_dimmer_spec_sheet.pdf
Much easier and more convenient than separating the functions.
Good luck,
CD

 

[Fisherguy]

You dont need to use two separate switches for 120 and low voltage. You can get a single device that will take care of both operations. Here's one example:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/wiringdevices/products/documents/spec_sheets2/decorator_0-10v_dimmer_spec_sheet.pdf
Much easier and more convenient than separating the functions.
Good luck,
CD

Thanks CD, I like the idea of an all in one switch.
Everything else seems ok?

Is there a preferred LED fixture people here like for hanging over a work bench? Was hoping to order from the same place but couldn't find anything on their website.

4000 or 5000k, what's your preference?
thx
Will

 

[cybrdyke]

Everything seems to make sense. Remember that you'll have things like cabinets and shelves against the walls, so dont mount your rows too close to them. "shop lights" are made to be used over benches. You can find them cheap at any big box store. Look for something around 3500 to 4000 lumens, with a cord and plug, maybe a pull string. The color is up to you. The consensus is about 50/50 on 4000k vs 5000k. I dont think you can go wrong either way.
CD

 

[Fisherguy]

Thanks.

Lotsa people talk about Costco lights, will see if they're in stock when I'm there next

 

[Platonic Solid]

Your 80|50|20 reflectance will be more like 25|25|20 unless you paint it white, which, as you state, is an undecided variable.

This is the same fixture as the GreenTek:
https://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/ZY-H2-110W-p/zy-h2-110w.htm

At 12ft I'd prefer a lower output fixture like this:
https://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/ZY-H2-80W-p/zy-h2-80w.htm

But since it's only $1 cheaper I'd go the 110W route with dimmers.

3x4 pattern is ideal to minimize shadows, though 110W @ 3x4 pattern is way to much, thus I'd use the dimmer and never run them at full output.

 

[Fisherguy]

Tyanks PT.

I didn't think leaving the birch natural would effect it that much, it's pretty light in color but this stuff is all new to me...

I ran the Viual Interior Tool again using the reflectances at 25/25/20 and it comes up with the same recommendation, not sure how that makes sense, I must be doing something wrong..?

Here's what it gives me.:

BTW, I can't run any lights down the center, that's where my gas tub heater is going.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Illuminance result in top right of the Visual tool dropped from 112fc to 95fc with reflectance change. With only 2 rows you'll end up with shadows from vehicles.

 

[Fisherguy]

This is newto me, where in the shop is that figure in the top right, or is it telling you the darkst spots will be 95fc?

So with tube heater in the middle only way to get rid of that is to do 4 rows instead of 2, or will painting everything white do the trick?

 

[Platonic Solid]

White paint makes a large difference. You'll be fine with 8 fixtures either way. Just much better painted. 12'+ mounting heights are more forgiving WRT fixture placement.

 

[Fisherguy]

Do you think I'd be better off with 4 rows of 4 footers instead?
Can you recommend one I can play with in that online tool?

Really appreciate your help, wanna do this thing right.
Have lived here a year, been busy getting stuff done to the house and now it's time to finally get around to doing the shop.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Stick with the 8 fixture arrangement. Results are better than I expected - assuming normal sized cars. If we're talking large SUVs and trucks that might be a different story.

 

[CJseven]

Maybe I missed it, but why do you have 9 and 9.5 ft as your hight in the program when you said it was 12 ?

 

[Platonic Solid]

Maybe I missed it, but why do you have 9 and 9.5 ft as your height in the program when you said it was 12 ?

Good catch, I didn't notice that. My prior comments are based on Dialux calcs with fixtures at 12.5'.

 

[Fisherguy]

Maybe I missed it, but why do you have 9 and 9.5 ft as your hight in the program when you said it was 12 ?

I have 12 foot walls ontop of a footing which is about 8", you can see it in the pics on the window side. Plus the 3 foot workspace.
But maybe I'm doing it wrong? Now that I think of it 'height' should be overall height I'm guessing, DOH!

When I correct that it tells me I need 9 lights with everything painted white and 12 with clear on the birch, only issue then is my gas tube heater screws both those scenarios up. Damn, maybe I shoulda just used a ceiling mounted gas furnace.

 

[Fisherguy]

Painted walls and ceiling





Clear birch




****, was really wanting to have the tube heater.
Guess I can't really use the 165w high bay and dimmers¿?

 

[Platonic Solid]

Why does the heater have to be on center?

 

[Fisherguy]

It's already roughed in, gas line run, intake and exhaust vents are in place.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Can you run the heater above the rafters?

 

[Fisherguy]

No, the plywood's going onto the bottom of the trusses, tube's gotta go below that.

I think as much as I don't like the idea the only way to light it keeping the tube heater is to run 4 rows of lights front to back, about 5 feet apart. Just gotta figure out whay kinda fixtures to get.

I'f I'm gonna order from the US and pick up when I'm down in Vancouver in a couple weeks I need to put the order in pretty soon. Stuff costs a lot more in Canada, specially in small towns like where we live.

Thanks for your help PS.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Try this fixture, ZL1D L48 7000LM FST MVOLT 50K 80 CRI, in the Visual tool to emulate an 8000 lumen 3-lamp strip light like this one -
https://www.prolighting.com/commerc...ommercial-lighting/t443ssubcxx00p0-18w5k.html

FYI - Industry standard for auto mechanic = 93fc @ 30" (2.5') work plane.

Or to save a few bucks

Maybe 8ft 4-lamp strip lights (uses four 4ft retrofit bulbs) like this one -
https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/192389/PLT-20015.html
with this bulb -
GLLUSA GL07103-3M(5000K) 48" 18W LED T8
2664 Lumens per bulb, 120° Beam Angle
Universal Ballast Compatible / Ballast Bypass via Single End or Opposing End Wired
5000K - 120-277V - 148 Lumens/Watt - Frosted Lens - Extruded Aluminum Body
$8.99 ea. (link) - no minimum + Shipping from Brighton, MI 48116 (bulbs do not qualify for free shipping)
$8.36 ea. after GARAGEJOURNAL discount applied at checkout.

 

[Fisherguy]

Cool, thanks for that, will check it out when I get home.

In the past when I tried to use strip lights in that tool I couldn't get them to line up in 4 rows front to back like I'd need, it kept wanting to line them up in rows from side to side which would look kinda crappy. 4 long rows front to back would look good I think.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Click the "orientation" option at the bottom of the Visual tool.

 

[Fisherguy]

Click the "orientation" option at the bottom of the Visual tool.

Thanks, I'll try that!

 

[Fisherguy]

Try this fixture, ZL1D L48 7000LM FST MVOLT 50K 80 CRI, in the Visual tool to emulate an 8000 lumen 3-lamp strip light like this one -
https://www.prolighting.com/commerc...ommercial-lighting/t443ssubcxx00p0-18w5k.html

Was sidetracked today, they assembled our post & beam RV port today, coming to put the roof on Wednesday.





OK, so if I paint the ceiling white (which should bring it's reflectance to 80 I think?) and go with these fixtures I'd need 20 of them, $1120 US to get the 100 fc I'm after.
I'll call or email them to see what they come up with, I see they do layouts for customers.

Here's what I come up with.



Will try to find something for the visual interior tool to use for your less expensive alternative.
Thx
Will

 

[Platonic Solid]

Will try to find something for the visual interior tool to use for your less expensive alternative.

This one is close http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/PhotometricViewer/default.aspx?id=189592

 

[Fisherguy]

...
...

Or to save a few bucks

Maybe 8ft 4-lamp strip lights (uses four 4ft retrofit bulbs) like this one -
https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/192389/PLT-20015.html
with this bulb -
GLLUSA GL07103-3M(5000K) 48" 18W LED T8
2664 Lumens per bulb, 120° Beam Angle
Universal Ballast Compatible / Ballast Bypass via Single End or Opposing End Wired
5000K - 120-277V - 148 Lumens/Watt - Frosted Lens - Extruded Aluminum Body
$8.99 ea. (link) - no minimum + Shipping from Brighton, MI 48116 (bulbs do not qualify for free shipping)
$8.36 ea. after GARAGEJOURNAL discount applied at checkout.

PS, is the selection I used here a representation of the less expensive alternative?
Also not sure what the warning in red means:
Warning: more than 15% of Luminaire B flux is up but the suspension length is zero.




If it is I like the cost of this one a lot more.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Also not sure what the warning in red means:
Warning: more than 15% of Luminaire B flux is up but the suspension length is zero.

There's something wrong on "Tab B". Delete all tabs and try again.

Also, you used a slightly higher lumen fixture than the one I linked to. Just ignore the 3000K CRI of the one I linked to as that has no effect on distribution.

 

[Fisherguy]

I got a couple layouts with price quotes from Pro Lighting.

First was using the TechBrite 48" 3 tube fixtures you mentioned. 20 of them (4 rows of 5), $1120, $1380 all in including shipping.
Their layout gives 94fc. I told them I'd paint the ceiling white, clear birch walls, they used 30/60/14 for reflectance values

Second option they came up with was 12 - 8 footers (4 rows of 3).
https://www.prolighting.com/sl913tk-1x8-18w5k.html
$984, $1208 all in with shipping to Wa.
Their layout gives 90fc

Gotta go, will post your lower lower cost option when I get back
Thx
Will

 

[Fisherguy]

...
...
Or to save a few bucks

Maybe 8ft 4-lamp strip lights (uses four 4ft retrofit bulbs) like this one -
https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/192389/PLT-20015.html
with this bulb -
GLLUSA GL07103-3M(5000K) 48" 18W LED T8
2664 Lumens per bulb, 120° Beam Angle
Universal Ballast Compatible / Ballast Bypass via Single End or Opposing End Wired
5000K - 120-277V - 148 Lumens/Watt - Frosted Lens - Extruded Aluminum Body
$8.99 ea. (link) - no minimum + Shipping from Brighton, MI 48116 (bulbs do not qualify for free shipping)
$8.36 ea. after GARAGEJOURNAL discount applied at checkout.

This one is close http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/PhotometricViewer/default.aspx?id=189592

Here's what I get with the fixtures and tubes you and the ones you suggested for the online tool.
(The ones you suggested I use for the tool have frosted difuser, wouldn't that make them a little dimmer?)



Note that's with 80/25/20 as the reflectance values based on a white ceiling, birch walls. Changing them to 30/60/14 like Pro Lighting suggested ends up with the same layout but the illuminance goes to 117 from 111. That tells me white walls gives you more benefit than a white ceiling I guess..?
I'm painting the ceiling white just cuz I think it would be birch overload if I left everything birch.

So price for 64 tubes comes out to $639 all in with Black Friday 10% off, shipping is $75.

Price for the 16 fixtures is $320 plus $277 shipping to Wa, haven't got to the taxes part yet.? Not sure if that's a mistake or what, need to call them tomorrow.

Shipping for both is $350, ouch! Wish I could get free shipping somewhere.

I have a better idea now thanks to your help Platonic Solid, thanks.
Will

 

[Platonic Solid]

1000bulbs goes way over the top on shipping sometimes. Apparently this is one of those times. Forget buying anything from 1000bulbs. I hate when companies that play that game.

Yes, white walls are more beneficial than white ceilings.

Yes, there's a small lumen output sacrifice for frosted, but you get better distribution and a more comfortable environment.

Here's a bulb with free shipping - (yes - and a little lower lumen output) https://www.ledmyplace.com/products/t8-4ft-led-tube-18w-5000k-frosted

 

[Fisherguy]

The price for the bulbs isn't bad, the shipping costs for the fixtures is a bit steep, adding it all up, fixtures, tubes, shipping, dollar exchange etc etc it works out to almost $1900 Canuck bucks.

The more I think about it the more I liked the high bays, might just go with 8 of them and paint the walls white if I have to.
If I use 30/60/14 for reflectance values as prolighting suggested for painted ceiling, birch walls I can get 93 fc which might be good enough.
Works out to just shy of $1000 Cdn, would just have to add the price of dimmers if I use them but sounds like I wouldn't, it's not going to be TOO bright I don't think.

I don't know, my f'n head hurts...

 

[Platonic Solid]

Yeah, I figured you'd come full circle on this one. Note my quote from post 12:

Stick with the 8 fixture arrangement. Results are better than I expected - assuming normal sized cars. If we're talking large SUVs and trucks that might be a different story.

Here's a budget dimming only switch (On/Off to be wired to regular wall switch)

 

[Fisherguy]

Ya, sorry PS, I DO tend to over think stuff sometimes and the gas tube screwed me up and I have no way of knowing what the reflectance values should be. Kyle at Pro Light used completely different values from yours so that just confuses an idiot like me...

 

[maxpat82]

28x44 10,5' and 12,5' ceiling garage : I have 3 row of 6 regular econo 2 4' tube fixture(lithonia CW232). with 6500k tube in there.

and it's very very well lighted (Will show even a bit more when all the wall and ceilling will be white.)

https://imgur.com/r9xXmPD

 

[Platonic Solid]

Ya, sorry PS, I DO tend to over think stuff sometimes and the gas tube screwed me up and I have no way of knowing what the reflectance values should be. Kyle at Pro Light used completely different values from yours so that just confuses an idiot like me...

30|60|14 Ceiling|Wall|Floor reflectance makes no sense in combination with your painted ceiling and birch walls statement. Looks to me like Ceiling and Wall are swapped.

 

[Fisherguy]

That would make more sense.
Switching his values around gives me 86 fc with 8 lights, we'll see how it looks when I'm done.
Thanks for your help Platonic!

 

[Fisherguy]

This is interesting, I googled "reflectance value of birch plywood walls" and came to this site. My birch plywood is lighter than the top left 'American white ash. which they gave a value of 51.5 to, when I run the visual tool with 50 for the wallls I come up with 100fc with 8 fixtures, cool.
Will report back when I get everything installed.

http://www.leaderflushshapland.co.uk/Integrated-doorsets/Technical-Resources/Light-reflectance-values-PVC-laminates

 

[Fisherguy]

PS, this is what the online tool came up with:
View attachment 839816


My overhead doors are on the 24ft wall, what would happen if I turned the lights 90* so the longer side is facing the longer wall (if you know what I mean)?

 

[cybrdyke]

PS, this is what the online tool came up with:

You're putting in 15,000 lumen highbays at 9.5 feet high??
I'd recommend against that.
CD