Lighting and CLF

[veno]

hi guys.. I think this is my first post....

I am in the midst of building a 40x50x14 steel building.. it is 17'-6" to the ridge...

I will be doing car stuff, some welding fabrications and alike..

I found and bought 10 metal halide 400 watt high bay lights.... for cheap...

but am now considering a CFL solution in the terms of a 55 watt=(250 watt incandescent) 5500 kelvin Edison base lighting solution... based on what I have been reading here. at 2 watts per sqft make it 16 of the 55 watt cfls.... It should provide ample light, my question is if they are placed on the purlins... Would the light be brilliant enough at that height to provide sufficient lighting at the floor level?

Veno

heres a partial of the semi completed building.... I should have it weather tight by Sunday... and ready for electrics

 

[tfi racing]

I have a feeling the CFL's won't cut it,and that is only a feeling FWIW!Show us what you are planning to use,and you will get the right advice.I would go with the Hi Bays,known and proven for this type and height of building.

 

[veno]

from 1000bulbs.com

the product speel

This spring lamp features world-class designer phosphors to guarantee high lumen maintenance and excellent color rendering.
Manufacturer: Energy Miser
Manufacturer's Part #: FE-US-55W-50K
Screw-In Compact Fluorescent
Wattage: 55 Watt
Incandescent Equivalent: 250 Watt
Initial Lumens: 3,600
Life Hours (Avg.): 8,000
Color Rendering Index (CRI): 80
Full Spectrum 5000K
Dimensions: L 8.39 in. x W 4.45 in.
Case Quantity is 20

6+ Bulbs = $15.79 Each

I have two of these in my 2 car attached centered in each bay....

been there for 3+ years... very satisfied with over all performance.. but that's in a 8' CEILING.. now I an going twice as high.....

 

[IDASHO]

Im using the same style 250 watt equivelant bulbs in my garage with a 13' tall ceiling.

Great lighting solution. They look a bit strange, but they do work, and put out a ton of light. Im using 8 of them in my 24x30. And they fire off well down to freezing or so. Below freezing, you have to flip them on, walk away for 10 minutes, then come back.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I would go with the Hi Bays,known and proven for this type and height of building.

High bays need more height than this, generally 20+ feet, though some spec out at 15+ ft. Low bay MH lights will work well, I have a 60x60x16 with a 21 ft peak, with a dozen 400 watt MH fixtures. Here is the link to the thread............

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21048

I've never seen a CF that large, so I have no idea how it will perform.

Charles

 

[ka41]

If you dont mind me asking, why didn't you insulate it. White faced metal building insulation would have helped with the light reflectance.

 

[slamed tudor]

Williams lighting offers a full ling of high bays that opperate at 14ft. The fixture is a T5 and it comes in 4-bulb or 6-bulb and even 8-bulb. This fixture is very compact. I have 9 of them in my shop and they are all four bulb. I would say that they are 16in wide and 4ft long. The 4-lampers are to take the place of a 400w high bay. These fixtures are equiped with electronic ballast so cold start up wont be a issue.

 

[veno]

If you dont mind me asking, why didn't you insulate it. White faced metal building insulation would have helped with the light reflectance.

because it was several thousand dollars....

I have three options..

#1 Apply 3/4"X4'X8' dense foam

#2 Spray foam (Crazy expensive)

#3 spray fire retardant cellulose....


I have not contacted any one about option 3 yet.. the foam board is 1000.00 to do the whole shop and can be done in fazes...


I have looked it to the T5ho and T5 and with pricing in the 350.00 per fixture.. that's just stupid for a Florescent fixture... they are price gouging because the Metal Halides are due to faze out...


as for light refraction.. my building is light stone.. very light color almost off white... the roof is Galvalume(silver) so light refraction is not an issue at this juncture.... after insulation.... thats a different story....


Insulation to me is not that big a factor..... I have good convection draft built in to the roof, much like the new ridge vent for residential... my roof vent is a flat 20" cap on top of PBR with a 5" opening in the center of the PBR... plus its 17'-6" to the ridge.... the side walls are 14' high with un sealed openings that provides the up draft.....

I have 2 10x10 roll up doors, one north facing and one south..

I live in south east Texas and there is generally a 10MPH south wind..


Besides I am not going to live there... just do some playing.. and if its to hot I go home, if its to cold, I go home...

I dont mind sweating..

 

[veno]

there is also this consideration at about 30 bucks a pop

Manufacturer Sunlite Manufacturer's Part # 5593
Product Description CFL Spring Lamp Wattage 105 Watt
Voltage 120 Volt Incandescent Equal 400 Watt
Base Type Standard Medium Color Rendering Index 80
Color Temperature (Kelvin) Full Spectrum Daylight 6500K Diameter 3.98 in.
Over all Length (M.O.L) 11.0 in. Life Hours (Avg) 8000
Lumens (Initial) 5000 UL Listed Compact Fluorescent
Case Quantity 6 Price Shown 6+ = $28.86 Each

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I dont mind sweating..

You'll do more than sweat in that tin box. I used to work in a 100w x 120 long metal building, 19 ft eave except for the last 20 ft which was 25 ft eave. The east wall of that building would get so hot in the morning, with the sun baking on it, that you could not go within 15 ft of it inside. The building would spend the whole day going "snap, crackle, pop" as it expanded in the sunlight and contracted as it cooled when a cloud went over. The concrete floors of the building would sweat when the slab had cooled and then warm moist air moved into the area. My shop now is about 50 miles north of where I used to work (and in west Central Georgia) and while I wished I had bought a better quality insulation, it has been a godsend. The current shop/aircraft hangar, with the insulation, doesn't make noises, floor doesn't sweat, and while hotter than he** when closed up, I can open it up and turn on all the fans, including the ceiling fans, and things get comfortable in a short while.

The current insulation (a white vinyl backed fiberglass, installed and then the metal sheets screwed on over it) is so brittle that I don't allow anyone to touch it, and am careful to not let anything lean on it or fall on it.

SE Texas gets hot also. I was born in Port Arthur and recall how terribly hot it was when I was little (late '50's).

Charles

 

[veno]

yep its hot.. last week it was 96 to 99... this week it's been 99 to 105

the last 3 days have all been 100+ with 96% humidity.. index is 108 to 110... today and yesterday is 104

I did not work on it yesterday and will not today..... to easy for heat stroke at my age (54)...

Like I said earlier.. I will most likely go with a 4x8 foam board... as its available in thicknesses from 1/2" to over 6"

 

[slamed tudor]

Your wrong about the t5 pricing. I will sell you a four bulb t5 williams fixture all day long for 148.00 this also includes the bulbs!!!!!!!!!!! Someones bending you over and not using any lube!!!!!

 

[veno]

OK so I ordered some stuff.... 16 of each... for a total of 6400 watts, in 6400 Kelvin so that 3.2 watts per sqft...

reflector: this reflector is 12" in diameter and 3.5" deep

Bulbs: these bulbs are 105 watt CFL's that produce incandescent Wattage equivalent of 420 watts with a 6400 Kelvin

a rough lat out of the shop as divided in to quadrants

Based on the 80% rule.. I can mount all of them on a single 20 amp circuit...

each is only .88 amps so at 16 of each thats 14.08 amps

the pricing comes out to just a whisker over $36.00 per light..or $144.00 per quadrant

 

[matttys]

I have 5 of these 105w lights in my garage, one in each corner and one in the middle. It makes a huge difference and the color is much more white. I actually can throw shadows against a work surface with the main door open to a sunny day.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

If you space them evenly you will have the rows across the 40 ft way, spaced 5 ft from the walls and 10 ft between the lights, and the 50 ft way, you will be 6-1/4 ft from the walls and 12-1/2 ft between the lights. That would be ideal, but if you intend to mount on the purlins you may end up adjusting that spacing running across the purlins to match them.

I would use at least two circuit breakers. That way if you have issues with one circuit you won't be totally out of lights while you sort it out.

Charles

 

[rust bucket bronco]

where did you find those reflectors? I looked for a bit but couldn't find them on the site.

 

[veno]

If you space them evenly you will have the rows across the 40 ft way, spaced 5 ft from the walls and 10 ft between the lights, and the 50 ft way, you will be 6-1/4 ft from the walls and 12-1/2 ft between the lights. That would be ideal, but if you intend to mount on the purlins you may end up adjusting that spacing running across the purlins to match them.

I would use at least two circuit breakers. That way if you have issues with one circuit you won't be totally out of lights while you sort it out.

Charles

Thanks Charles... the PURLINS ARE 5' oc... So that works out fairly well.. thanks for the dimensions... I hadn't worked them out yet... but since you have!!! and thanks for all your input too...

Veno

where did you find those reflectors? I looked for a bit but couldn't find them on the site.

took some looking to find them the first time.....

got a nickel? I tell ya

here ya go


http://www.nationalfancompany.com/p/NFC-BL12RT.html

 

[veno]

I have 5 of these 105w lights in my garage, one in each corner and one in the middle. It makes a huge difference and the color is much more white. I actually can throw shadows against a work surface with the main door open to a sunny day.

I hope it is as bright as I anticipate.... need it for the lathe, tig and plasma plus I hate dim yellow shadowed light.. these old eyes suffer with trifocals now...

 

[veno]

Charles... you got me thinkin... ok 2 circuits.. ok fine, 15 amp.. no biggie... If is it safe or advisable to run 2 THHN #12 lines of different buss in the same Thinwall EMT? or should they come from the same buss? Which is my thinking..

I have done many residential Romex wire jobs.. (21 YEARS IN THE CONSTRUCTION TRADES) I have pulled a few wires...

this is my first thin wall emt job.. I have never fooled with thinwall EMT before.. sure PVC but never thinwall emt....or a commercial type electrical environment... watched many of a electrician bend miles of emt over the years.. never held a bender in my hand

 

[Charles (in GA)]

If you have never bent EMT, plan on wasting a few feet of it, its not as easy as it looks. I did all of my steel building and every time I stopped for a few weeks I had to re-learn the sequence of the steps again..... "first make this bend, roll it over THEN make this bend.... etc."

Best document I found to help with offset calculations and such is this............

http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/freestuff/BendingRoundRaceways.pdf

Charles

 

[veno]

Charles thanks for the PDF file.. that was a great help.. out of 300ft so far I misbent 3 pieces..10% so I feel great....

also.. last weekend I finished my service entrance (200amp) and called the local ulility for a hook up! meet the guy at the shop @ noon today.. and all is well.. they have to set a pole(free) and no or befor the 10th I will have service! woohoo

 

[veno]

thought you guys might like to see my 6500 kelvin 105 watt CFL install

 

[veno]

Well, 8am this morning.. the electric Utility showed up... by 9:30am they were finished and I was HOT!

thought ya'll might like to see the results of the CFL and Reflectors 9PM tonight

something with a little scale

 

[veno]

ya'll dont care for my screw in solution? @ 38 dollars a fixture(bulb included)? for a total of 608.00?

 

[IDASHO]

Looks good!

I know I like mine!

By the way, and I may have missed it....

But where did you get the reflectors?

 

[belvedere]

looks good to me!

 

[Striker]

What's the warm up time from cold start to full light on those bulbs?

 

[veno]

@ current temps......around 2min. or less to full intensity I really dont even bother with how long it takes.

but who really cares... if you had metal halide would you ask the same question?

a few min warm up verses 4 bulb t5 or t8 at a substantial cost difference? 400 watt equal @ 38.00 per fixture...

where as a t5 /t8or what ever @ 150.00 plus? for equal light...




I wait a second ot two more

 

[Striker]

but who really cares... if you had metal halide would you ask the same question?

I know metal halide bulbs take a while. I was just curious if there was a big time difference between the high wattage CFLs and normal wattage CFLs (100w equivalent variety) in terms of warm up.

Personally, I think what you installed was a very economical choice. I like it. If you bought those bulbs at 1000bulbs.com (saw the copyright on the posted image) make sure to keep the receipt handy. Those bulbs are under warranty and they will replace them if any bulbs dies during the period. The circuit board in CFLs is usually first to go due to the heat they generate.

 

[Falcon67]

Let there be light!

 

[Dragster Racer]

I honestly didn't think it would spread the light evenly enough. Glad I was wrong. Looks very nice.

 

[rustyjeeps]

What fixtures did you use?

 

[veno]

What fixtures did you use?

Leviton Porcelain Keyless Outlet Box Lampholder
Model # 09875R40000
Store SKU# 225035
$1.49/Each

http://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-F...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

 

[AmickRacing]

Good thing you didn't put any more in, you'd have to wear your welding hood all the time in there.

 

[rustyjeeps]

Thanks for the info. I have tried the 400w MH, the six bulb T5 HO and have been underwhelmed. This may be worth a try.

 

[bookman51]

Veno, Pretty impressed with you lights. I have a 72 by 40 pole building with 15 side walls that I need to get lights into. The lights would be on the rafters 15' up. Looks like you have plenty of light. Any idea of lumens at work level?

I am in Nebraska so I get pretty cold weather, so what do the lights do at, let say, zero degrees?

In the building I have a 40x32 shop area with cement floor and then a 40 x 40 area with gravel floor that I use to store my antique tractors. I am thinking about putting the CFL over the shop area and then then tungstens in the storage area. Looks like I can always change my might and put in CFL in the storage.

How far apart did you put your CFL. Just looks like lot of light. And what is the life of the CFL?

Really looks like a good solution and considerably less cost than T-5 or T-8. Can anyone think of any downsides?

Thanks

Bookman

 

[veno]

Good thing you didn't put any more in, you'd have to wear your welding hood all the time in there.

It is bright at night....

Thanks for the info. I have tried the 400w MH, the six bulb T5 HO and have been underwhelmed. This may be worth a try.

here is the site I ordered the CFLS from

https://www.interlight.biz/light-bulb/CF105/COIL/D

Reflectors

http://www.nationalfancompany.com/p/NFC-BL12RT.html

Veno, Pretty impressed with you lights. I have a 72 by 40 pole building with 15 side walls that I need to get lights into. The lights would be on the rafters 15' up. Looks like you have plenty of light. Any idea of lumens at work level?

I am in Nebraska so I get pretty cold weather, so what do the lights do at, let say, zero degrees?

In the building I have a 40x32 shop area with cement floor and then a 40 x 40 area with gravel floor that I use to store my antique tractors. I am thinking about putting the CFL over the shop area and then then tungstens in the storage area. Looks like I can always change my might and put in CFL in the storage.

How far apart did you put your CFL. Just looks like lot of light. And what is the life of the CFL?

Really looks like a good solution and considerably less cost than T-5 or T-8. Can anyone think of any downsides?

Thanks

Bookman

the spacing is 10' X 12' inn quadrants.. I came 5' off the walls on the 50' side and 6' off the walls on the 40' side... then divided equally.. which was 10' and 12'-6"...

as for performance in zero or sub zero... I dont have a clue.... as I live in SE texas.... but as with any CFL they are slow to get full brightness in the cold

the bulbs were 19.00 from the web site, the reflectors were 14.00 and the lamp base was 1.50 plus the shipping cost.. which I think was 8.50 for the reflectors and 11.00 for the bulbs when shipped to a business address..

I ordered 20 bulbs and 16 reflectors


If a look in the pics.. you see very little shadowing.. I truly am impressed with the system.... even in daylight its very good even with the doors open....

How long they last compared to T5 or T8 I dont know.. but for the Home owner that spends the weekend in the shop.... I would guess they will last a long time...

 

[bookman51]

Veno, Thanks for the information. I am retired, so might be in a bit more than weekends, but hey, if it is too cold or too hot, I do not have to be out there. I lived north of Dallas for nine years. Enjoyed Texas. Now back in my home state of Nebraska for retirement.

Hey....anyone else out there have a clue about what they do in freezing and subzero weather... and how long they last??

Thanks

Bookman

 

[Tscott]

Veno,
Great looking stuff you got there. I love this concept and I may adopt it for my shop. Do you think those bulbs would fit in and older style vintage gas station fixture? If so, one could use those and get a cool looking retro thing going on.

Something like this possibly:

http://www.barnlightelectric.com/pe...n-light-warehouse-pendant-12-to-27-shade.html

or

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...roductId=100469635&N=10000003+524626+10401001



Tom

 

[bookman51]

I looked at some CFL in Meinards, Builders Warehouse and TSC. Interesting, some said they should be installed only with the base at the bottom...not hanging down or sideways. Some hard warnings about shorter life if installed in canisters (I suppose heat build up). I bought one bulb to test in my shop. It is equivalent to 200 watts and installed sideways over a far door (electrician put one light there when he installed the outlets should I need a light there; I have a few plug in lights at the shop end). In today's weather (75 degrees) it comes right on. I will see how it does this winter before I try CLF entirely for my shop lighting here in Nebraska.

Bookman