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Lighting for my shop

ehjorten

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Apr 25, 2006
Messages
63
Location
Snohomish County, WA
I did a quick search, but didn't see what I was looking for...

I am going to need to outfit my shop with overhead lamps and was wondering what the best thing to use was? T-8 or LED? The lamps will be hung between 14-21' overhead in the high bays (the shop is scissor trussed) and for the section that has an upstairs, the lower level is 9' ceiling and upstairs it is scissor trussed again, so the range is from 5' to 11' in the center of the peak.

I would like really good lighting in the shop. I don't want to spend a ton of money on lighting fixtures, but if there are some reasonably priced LED fixtures that put out some good light and save me some electricity then I might put a little more into the fixtures.
 
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2ManyProjects

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I did a quick search, but didn't see what I was looking for...

I am going to need to outfit my shop with overhead lamps and was wondering what the best thing to use was? T-8 or LED?

There are ways to make either work. BUT...

I don't want to spend a ton of money on lighting fixtures,

Then that settles it. By the time you get enough LED-based lighting in there to work in the application you describe, you'll have spent a (no-so-)small fortune: For example, it would take TWO of these:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-2-ft-White-LED-High-Bay-Light-IBH-11L-MV/203812710
6c03025b-1f9f-4883-84bd-441d389f7baf_1000.jpg


to replace ONE of these:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/93811/BSS-HB4T5.html
93811_a3a27e0aa9283898b927884b1859c8cc174f6c37_original_x_600_1372489330.jpg


but if there are some reasonably priced LED fixtures that put out some good light and save me some electricity then I might put a little more into the fixtures.

Despite the marketing claims (such as in the H.D. verbiage for the LED fixture cited above), LEDs are AT BEST only marginally more efficient than good linear fluorescents; and sometimes, not even that. For example, the one above is nominally rated at 11,200 lumens, and requires (depending on the EXACT model variation) 145-151 watts to do it. That works out to about 74-77 lumens/watt. Meanwhile, a good F54T5HO tube will put put approximately 4,800-5,000 lumens on a nominal 54 watts, or about 90-93 lumens/watt.

 
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ehjorten

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Apr 25, 2006
Messages
63
Location
Snohomish County, WA
So this is what I see from what you have shown me...

Those LED fixtures cost about $100 more than the T5 fixture after you figure in the cost of the bulbs with the fixtures, but they consume about 31% less energy than the T5 4-lamp fixture (149 W LED vs. 216 W - 54 W x 4).

With the lumen output compared (11,200 lm for LED vs. 19,000 lm for CFL) I would estimate a little more than $6/yr. to operate the LED fixtures over the CFL fixtures given the amount of time that I will actually operate them (I'm estimating 2 hr/day average).

The lifetimes should be a moot-point as I should never have to replace any bulbs given the usage and the average lifetime of each. Heavy on the theory because I know that those lifetimes are just an average and other factors contribute to bulb life.

Unless I was operating these lamps much, much more, it would never pay-off to invest in LED with the current specs.
 

2ManyProjects

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Messages
757
So this is what I see from what you have shown me...

Those LED fixtures cost about $100 more than the T5 fixture after you figure in the cost of the bulbs with the fixtures, but they consume about 31% less energy than the T5 4-lamp fixture (149 W LED vs. 216 W - 54 W x 4).

True, as far as it goes. But you're forgetting the fact that you need two of those LED fixtures to provide (approximately) the same amount of light as one of the fluorescent fixtures. So really, you're looking at ~$440 vs. ~$95 (with tubes, and assuming you'll need at least two dozen of them, which is probably a reasonable bet).

More to the point, that same "2:1" issue also rears its ugly head on the energy-consumption front. Two of the LED fixtures will consume (approximately) 300 watts, vs. four F54T5 tubes at a nominal 216 watts. In short, the LED fixtures would use about 38% MORE electricity to make (approximately) the same amount of light.

With the lumen output compared (11,200 lm for LED vs. 19,000 lm for CFL) I would estimate a little more than $6/yr. to operate the LED fixtures over the CFL fixtures given the amount of time that I will actually operate them (I'm estimating 2 hr/day average).

Uhhhh... WHAT "CFL fixtures?!? We haven't discussed CFLs at all (nor do I suggest that we do; they ALWAYS lose out to linear fluorescents).

The lifetimes should be a moot-point as I should never have to replace any bulbs given the usage and the average lifetime of each. Heavy on the theory because I know that those lifetimes are just an average and other factors contribute to bulb life.

And more importantly, virtually NONE of them ever **** out at or near the "average" lifespan. That "average" is just that -- a STATISTICAL average. In practice, most electronic things (definitely including most LEDs) either fail VERY early, or last halfway to forever. It only takes a few of those early failures to bring that "statistical average lifespan" down to well below what MOST of them live to.

Unless I was operating these lamps much, much more, it would never pay-off to invest in LED with the current specs.

Despite some side-tracks along the way, you did indeed get to more-or-less the correct final conclusion. ;)

These would actually save me about $12-13 a year in electrical costs, but I don't know how much the initial cost is.

http://www.ledtronics.com/Products/ProductsDetails.aspx?WP=2259

Maybe -- and that is a very BIG "maybe", at that.

I have no idea who "LED Tronics" is, or how credible they are. They certainly are not the well-established major manufacturer that Lithonia is, for example. And in this particular case, credibility is a major concern.

They're claiming over 10,600 lumens out of just four LEDs, AND doing it at 108 lumens/watt in the process. That seems quite a bit more than "optimistic", to me, considering that (AFAIK, anyway) the highest-output raw LEDs available are the Cree LMH2 series; and even Cree only claims about 82 lumens/watt (cf. http://www.cree.com/news-and-events.../2012/april/120403-brightest-lmh2-led-modules).

We'd also need to see some verifiable photometric data (of which, they provide NONE) to determine the effective lighting pattern (and from that, how many of these fixtures would REALLY be needed).

Then there's the "all your eggs in one basket" problem... With a typical LED-based fixture (including that Lithonia one I cited earlier), you have several dozen individual LEDs contributing to the output. So if one of them fails, it's no big deal. But with only four LEDs in each fixture, a single failure costs you 25% of your light output.

And finally, to even use these particular fixtures, you'd need to run your lights off AT LEAST 240V; and I strongly suspect that little "(Tested @ 480VAC)" notation is a HUGELY critical data point in terms of actually approaching the level of performance implied in that specs table. Do you have three-phase power coming into your shop? Have you gotten a price quote from your PoCo to supply it?

 

Charles (in GA)

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Jan 11, 2006
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Location
50 mi south of Atlanta
And finally, to even use these particular fixtures, you'd need to run your lights off AT LEAST 240V; and I strongly suspect that little "(Tested @ 480VAC)" notation is a HUGELY critical data point in terms of actually approaching the level of performance implied in that specs table. Do you have three-phase power coming into your shop? Have you gotten a price quote from your PoCo to supply it?


From the OP's description, his shop is most likely detached from any residence, but people do need to be reminded that residential lighting, including attached garages and such, are limited by the code to 120v. (210.6(A)).
 
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2ManyProjects

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757
From the OP's description, his shop is most likely detached from any residence, but people do need to be reminded that residential lighting, including attached garages and such, are limited by the code to 120v. (210.6(A)).

Good point. Thanks for the tip!

 
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ehjorten

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Location
Snohomish County, WA
Those LEDTronics lamps are multi-chip LED, so it isn't just 4 LEDs. the -2 is 240-480V. That was a mistake...the -1 is 120-240V. I found from my brother that they are $800 a fixture and are therefore out of the equation. He is an electrician. He was steering me towards T8s because he says the ballasts are much more expensive for the T5s and says that he has not seen very good reliability in those ballasts.

To answer the CFL question...It was just a typo...we are talking about LFL of course.

All of my lighting comparisons for investment and operating costs were based on equivalent light output. So there is no additional lamp purchases to get the same light output (based on stated performance claims).
 

Charles (in GA)

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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
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Location
50 mi south of Atlanta
He was steering me towards T8s because he says the ballasts are much more expensive for the T5s and says that he has not seen very good reliability in those ballasts.

I think that may have been true early on in the T5HO world, but more recently, the past two or three years, I suspect there have been many improvements. We have a thousand or so of the T5HO fixtures at work, most are 8 bulb with two ballasts, and I can count a half dozen or so that have half the bulbs out (failed ballast) and these (the 8 bulb ones) are mounted about 95 or 100 ft up in an aircraft hangar (doors are 90 ft high) and it gets extremely hot in the summer and sometimes cold in the winter, and its been almost three years now since they were installed.

Charles
 

2ManyProjects

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Jul 18, 2013
Messages
757
Those LEDTronics lamps are multi-chip LED, so it isn't just 4 LEDs. the -2 is 240-480V. That was a mistake...the -1 is 120-240V. I found from my brother that they are $800 a fixture and are therefore out of the equation.

Just as well.

He is an electrician. He was steering me towards T8s because he says the ballasts are much more expensive for the T5s and says that he has not seen very good reliability in those ballasts.

That strikes me as too much a sweeping generalization to put much stock into. As with anything else, it all depends on the quality of the individual item.

To answer the CFL question...It was just a typo...we are talking about LFL of course.

OK.

All of my lighting comparisons for investment and operating costs were based on equivalent light output. So there is no additional lamp purchases to get the same light output (based on stated performance claims).

If you say so; but I'm still not sure how you're figuring that.

As I pointed out earlier, it would take two of those Lithonia LED fixtures to approximately equal the light output of ONE four-tube F54T5HO fixture. So you would indeed need approximately twice as many of them. Each LED fixture costs $220 and uses 150 watts. So that's $440 and 300 watts to "approximately" equal a single T5HO fixture at $95 and (nominally) 216 watts.

So NO WAY that's only "$100 more...".

I'm probably going to end-up with 8 (2 rows of 4), 6-lamp T8 fixtures. That should give me plenty of light!

You haven't told us enough about your shop to know if this is appropriate or not. (In fact, the ONLY thing you've told us is that "some" of the ceiling is at least 14-21 feet high.) But even considering that information vacuum, I'd wager heavily that this is NOT the most effective lighting plan you could come up with. In any space as large as you (at least) imply yours is, concentrating all of the light into what would effectively be eight widely spaced point-sources is a prescription for spotty, uneven lighting.

 
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