Lighting for new shop
- Thread starter wildstyle
- Start date
harleybuilder
Well-known member
Well I hope I haven't just waisted over $200 by ordering these lights. We shall see how they do and hold up. ...
pftwhftb
Well-known member
If you got the lights from the same company I did then you shouldn't have a problem.
harleybuilder
Well-known member
I bought them from your amazon link.
pftwhftb
Well-known member
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
Please proceed with caution. China has a well-earned reputation of consumer product safety issues. These lights have no verifiable independent laboratory testing. No UL, ETL, CSA… If the claimed CE certificate is valid, it only means that the manufacturer is capable of making a product that meets European standards. Not that it would mean much, but there is no way to validate the CE certificate online without paying a fee to a service.
I must be missing what all the excitement is about. I can go to Home Depot and purchase a 1600 Lumen 18W (thus 89 Lumens per Watt) UL Listed Cree LED screw in bulb that has less glair and likely more reliable color temp speck for $21. These LE spot lights are $30+ and 75 Lumens per Watt.
Most people don’t put flood lights inside their garage for good reason = too much glare. If you’re so inclined, there are plenty of off-the-shelf UL Listed LED spotlight bulbs available that meet or beat the cost per lumen.
I must be missing what all the excitement is about. I can go to Home Depot and purchase a 1600 Lumen 18W (thus 89 Lumens per Watt) UL Listed Cree LED screw in bulb that has less glair and likely more reliable color temp speck for $21. These LE spot lights are $30+ and 75 Lumens per Watt.
Most people don’t put flood lights inside their garage for good reason = too much glare. If you’re so inclined, there are plenty of off-the-shelf UL Listed LED spotlight bulbs available that meet or beat the cost per lumen.
pftwhftb
Well-known member
To each his own. I love them and have had zero problems with them. They are amazing lights with a great color, light pattern and brightness with minimal power consumption and small footprint on the wall so they are not in the way. They are backed with a 2 year warranty from the U.S. based company that supplies them out of Las Vegas. The ones I purchased are not the eBay specials that some get and have problems with. Mine were $24 a piece with free shipping.
I've posted pics in the thread of the ones I installed, but everyone has a different idea and requirement for the lighting needs of their garage. For me these are absolutely perfect.
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
"To each his own" is a convenient fallback position as long as everyone understands the potential risk they're taking by installing these non-code compliant fixtures.
NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, says quite clearly that "All luminaires and lampholders shall be listed."
The CE-mark does not comply with the National Electric Code (NEC) requirement for listed or labeled equipment.
The CE mark is a generic mark used in the European Union (EU) to indicate that a manufacturer had declaired that the product meets requirements in the EU for product safety. The CE-mark basically states: "I, the manufacturer, herewith certify that MY Equipment complies twith this (relevant) European standard".
Would your homeowners insurance cover your loss by fire if investigation determines that you are responsible for negligently installing non-code compliant fixtures? It goes without saying that you could not get a permit to install these fixtures.
NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, says quite clearly that "All luminaires and lampholders shall be listed."
The CE-mark does not comply with the National Electric Code (NEC) requirement for listed or labeled equipment.
The CE mark is a generic mark used in the European Union (EU) to indicate that a manufacturer had declaired that the product meets requirements in the EU for product safety. The CE-mark basically states: "I, the manufacturer, herewith certify that MY Equipment complies twith this (relevant) European standard".
Would your homeowners insurance cover your loss by fire if investigation determines that you are responsible for negligently installing non-code compliant fixtures? It goes without saying that you could not get a permit to install these fixtures.
KGB Pilot125
Well-known member
Was my coffee maker ul listed or certified that was just recalled? I could have been severely burned or maimed by spraying hot water and I bet an insurance investigation would have turned up nothing. Life is full of risk, its up to us to determine if the reward is worth it.
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
Sorry, that’s not even close to a comparable scenario. In your example you have recourse against the manufacturer. You were not negligent in the use or installation of the coffee maker.
Hardwired electrical equipment must be installed in accordance with NFPA which requires the item to be tested at a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). This is not a state requirement, it is national.
Is this really worth the risk? That’s your choice. Let’s say you pay $1,000 /yr in homeowners insurance. Would you pay half that for NRTL certified light fixtures that don’t nullify your $1,000 policy?
KGB Pilot125
Well-known member
Question, if it came with a plug instead of leads would it have to pass ul certification?
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
Yes, it would have to pass NRTL testing, but it wouldn't require a permit.
KGB Pilot125
Well-known member
So every lamp sold in the US passes this test?
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
No, not every lamp sold. There's nothing preventing retailers from selling nor you from buying non-NRTL electrical devices. It's just not legal for you to install them.
KGB Pilot125
Well-known member
Install as in hard wire right? But legal to simply plug in. So in theory if this LED lamp was sold with the plug already installed it would be OK?
Not being a ****, trying to understand. Are the rules different for a commercial guy vs a private homeowner?
Not being a ****, trying to understand. Are the rules different for a commercial guy vs a private homeowner?
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
All electrical devices are required to have NRTL certification regardless of plug-in or hardwired. If you buy a plug-in non-NRTL device and it burns your house down, you may have no recourse. That being said, you'd be hard pressed to find a plug-in non-NRTL device sold from a legitimate US retailer. There may be more laws regarding consumer plug-in devices than for hard wired devices since most consumers assume the plug-in product they're buying at Walmart is NRTL certified and a licensed electrician is not required for installation.
Most incandescent, halogen, HID or fluorescent lamps are not UL listed. They are not required to be.
LED lamps, however, are being tested by UL, and ETL.
CD
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
Yes, basic fluorescent tubes and incandescent and HID bulbs are not UL listed or recognized components. They are built to an ANSI spec.
UL, ETL and CSA are having a field day with all the business LED lamps have generated. In many cases the LED lamp assembly is treated like a fixture as it contains all the circuitry to convert AC to DC.
The individual LEDs along with other electronic components are usually UL Recognized Components, which means that they are approved for use in a UL Listed assembly, but the assembly must still be tested by a NRTL before it is permitted to bear the UL, ETL, or CSA Label.
NRTL Field inspectors regularly drop by the manufacturer unannounced to very continued compliance.
pftwhftb
Well-known member
AAHHH!!!!! My metal garage is going to burn to the ground because I installed non certified lighting?! My LED outdoor lights that are exposed to extreme temperatures and condensation are going to explode because inspector number 6 didn't say they were A okay?! The outstanding amazing lights that I installed in my garage that are a better lighting, brightness and color than any tube lighting or screw in light bulb is going to cause my insurance company to drop my coverage and make me lose my house so I have to live on he streets.
I'm pretty sure that we will all be ok with these lights whether they are inspected, certified or approved. I realize that electricians and lighting salesman might not like consumers buying inexpensive lights that last 50,000 hours. I see no problem with these lights considering that these are not new, people have been using them outside and inside hard wired and wired to a plug for many years. I have not heard of any doomsday stories that they are burning houses or commercial buildings down and creating nuclear explosions.
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
I think the sharp point light source has eaten a hole into your brain.
I'm pretty sure that we will all be ok with these lights whether they are inspected, certified or approved. I realize that electricians and lighting salesman might not like consumers buying inexpensive lights that last 50,000 hours. I see no problem with these lights considering that these are not new, people have been using them outside and inside hard wired and wired to a plug for many years. I have not heard of any doomsday stories that they are burning houses or commercial buildings down and creating nuclear explosions.
I literally laughed out loud.
Great post!!
CD
pftwhftb
Well-known member
Lol, but they are floodlights, 120 deg. It's probably the lead paint from China radiating off the lights.
dfiler2
Well-known member
I just put light fixtures in my 30 x 26 shop last weekend. After getting suggestions from GJ members I put in 3 rows of 3, 8' 4-4' T8 for a total of 36 bulbs. I wasn't able to try them out until tonight, I had ordered bulbs (32w 4100k) from HD and they came today so I just put them in and hit the switches. I am very pleased with the lights, I really couldn't find a spot to cast a shadow.
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
I do believe LE is a step above the eBay retailers as they're nice enough to provide IES files.
Unfortunately only the 20W actually agrees with their published specs.
Unfortunately only the 20W actually agrees with their published specs.
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
Smart choice. Is the TC232 from Home Depot the fixture you installed?
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pftwhftb
Well-known member
I do believe LE is a step above the eBay retailers as they're nice enough to provide IES files.
Unfortunately only the 20W actually agrees with their published specs.
Platonic Solid
Well-known member
An even better price. Can you provide more detail on exactly what lamp you purchased and exactly what ballast is in the fixture?
A picture of the ballast label and printed data on lamp would do the trick also.
nolimits76
Well-known member
I'm not vested either way; however, having dealt with insurance companies in other areas I know they can be slimy bastards. I get it. They want to minimize their claim losses so they remain profitable and are able to offer lower rates to their customer base.
I also know they will have professionals on their side and will most likely look at minor details that has been pointed out. All this assuming your house burns down of course. The odds are small but are devastating when it happens.
Remember guys, once it gets to a legal viewpoint your ignorance or best intentions doesn't matter much.
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I also know they will have professionals on their side and will most likely look at minor details that has been pointed out. All this assuming your house burns down of course. The odds are small but are devastating when it happens.
Remember guys, once it gets to a legal viewpoint your ignorance or best intentions doesn't matter much.
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bigredmf
Well-known member
I spoke to my electrician about the non UL rated options.
His comment was if you fall asleep with a cigarette and burn down your house your insurance will pay.
Not the answer I expected!
He did mention he could not install them.
Red
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His comment was if you fall asleep with a cigarette and burn down your house your insurance will pay.
Not the answer I expected!
He did mention he could not install them.
Red
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legotech7
Active member
Well I went through this whole thread with great interest, and almost hit the go button on Amazon to purchase the LED's, until Platonic Solid chimed in. It all sounded pretty good, but now I have some reservations. If I put these up and the inspector decides a thumbs down, I'm SOL, right?.....................
pftwhftb
Well-known member
If you wire them to an extension cord and just plug them in they do not need to be inspected because they are just a plugged in light fixture. They don't even need to be in before any inspection or for an inspection. They would be no different than buying a fluorescent light and plugging it in. Everyone is really overthinking these lights. They are not evil dangerous lights. They are wonderful lights that are bright, safe and long lasting. I have zero issues with mine at all. I have 10 running at the same time when I am in there and they are perfect. I would put these anywhere in or around my house without a second thought for safety or longevity.
pftwhftb
Well-known member
9 month update on the lights.
3 of the lights started flickering, but no big deal. I contacted the company and without any argument they sent me new lights under warranty. I received those lights 5 days after I contacted them.
So their 2 year warranty is legit and you don't have to send the old ones back to them.
3 of the lights started flickering, but no big deal. I contacted the company and without any argument they sent me new lights under warranty. I received those lights 5 days after I contacted them.
So their 2 year warranty is legit and you don't have to send the old ones back to them.
harleybuilder
Well-known member
So far mine are doing great, I will say that they do interfere with my door opener in the shop.
pftwhftb
Well-known member
I've never had mine interfere with mine yet. I did have LED bulbs in my garage openers and they interfered drastically though.
I'm still using the ones that were flickering. I put them in different locations for more lighting. But because they were under warranty I contacted the company for new ones. There are 3 rows of LEDs in the chip and just one of the 3 is flickering and going out. So they still throw quite a bit of light. I found replacement LED chips to put in them if they burn out completely.
(P)repare (F)or (T)he (W)orst (H)ope (F)or (T)he (B)est
YouTube channel
I'm still using the ones that were flickering. I put them in different locations for more lighting. But because they were under warranty I contacted the company for new ones. There are 3 rows of LEDs in the chip and just one of the 3 is flickering and going out. So they still throw quite a bit of light. I found replacement LED chips to put in them if they burn out completely.
(P)repare (F)or (T)he (W)orst (H)ope (F)or (T)he (B)est
YouTube channel
cynicalrider
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 52
Good to know they are still holding up great!
Can't believe I haven't posted a pic in this thread:
From outside:
Same lights OP recommended and I love them.
Can't believe I haven't posted a pic in this thread:
From outside:
Same lights OP recommended and I love them.
pftwhftb
Well-known member
Good to know they are still holding up great!
Can't believe I haven't posted a pic in this thread:
From outside:
Same lights OP recommended and I love them.
Yes they are great lights. And you can't beat the no questions asked warranty. I have 13 in my shop now since I didn't have to send back the flickering ones. They flicker when first turned on but stop after warmed up. I found a replacement LED chip on Amazon that I'll buy if I need to replace those flickering ones out of warranty. It's only $8.
(P)repare (F)or (T)he (W)orst (H)ope (F)or (T)he (B)est
YouTube channel
It's good to hear that they honored their warranty....but that doesn't excuse the 30% failure rate. That's extraordinarily high and completely unacceptable. You cant say that a product is working great, or a great performer, or a good product when it's got a 30% failure rate.
CD
CD
pftwhftb
Well-known member
30% failure rate after 9 months is not great, but the lights are great. LEDs are very particular. I have had bad luck with all LED lights that I have purchased from all different manufacturers. It's a **** shoot every time for me. They were $24 compared to if you bought the same lights at Lowes, Home Depot, or other retail store where they are $200 at for the same lights. I bet they have the same failure rate because the LED chip is a universal chip that most manufacturers use.
I agree it's unacceptable, but I love the lighting so much that it's ok with me as long as the warranty is honored.