Lighting layout question for Plantonic Solid

[Platonic Solid]

Correct. Haven't seen any IES files for most of these cheaper fixtures.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Note: You will need to tweak the similar fixture lumen output in Dialux to match the competing fixture. Also, some IES files have massive errors in them - I encountered one from Lithonia the other day that had a 48ft fixture caused by whoever made the file inserted the fixture length in inches instead of feet.

 

[jjscott]

Note: You will need to tweak the similar fixture lumen output in Dialux to match the competing fixture. Also, some IES files have massive errors in them - I encountered one from Lithonia the other day that had a 48ft fixture caused by whoever made the file inserted the fixture length in inches instead of feet.

Would it be possible for you to provide me the Dialux file you did for my layout so I can open it and use it as a guide within the Dialux program? I'm guessing this would be the evo file.

Thanks

 

[Platonic Solid]

Here:
jjscott-1d.txt
save page as - then rename to evo

 

[jjscott]

Thanks. I got it loaded, but it's asking for the dwg file that you edited. It's located in your c:\users\svend\downloads directory and is named jjscott.dwg. Can you provide this?

If it's too big for this site. I can PM you my email address.

Thanks

 

[Platonic Solid]

Here:
jjscottdwg.txt
save page as - then rename to jjscott.dwg

 

[jjscott]

Thanks. This helped a lot. I forgot to include the attic access in the layout I provided you so I had to tweak the layout a bit and found good results running them all horizontal to the garage doors. This accommodated the attic access.

Just curious, but how many foot candles do they recommend for car detailing work?

 

[Platonic Solid]

You have a lot of freedom with 2x4 fixtures. Rotating the fixtures shouldn't make much difference.

You're obviously looking at the massive amount of light in the detailing thread, which is overkill only due to the output of the fixtures being used (the price is right), not the quantity of fixtures. I would not recommend that level of output were they not put on dimmers. The higher output option should permit interior work without additional work lights. The fc numbers you see there are at full output. There's also the lower ceiling to take into account = pull a taller vehicle into a lower ceiling space and it blocks half the light.

Exterior finish buffing = 93fc (same as mechanical work)
Exterior paint matching (as often done by professional detail shops) = 139fc

 

[D.J.]

My boss just asked me to look for light calculator for our shop overhaul. As you can see we have Spray foamed the interior and are in process of hanging White metal on Walls and Ceiling and are trying to figure light recommendations for a LED to hang and be used with surface mount Conduit. Shop dimensions are 122' X 48' X 14' General shop work will be preformed in the space Could you recommend a light Calculator for me to use?

 

[D.J.]

[url]https://outlook.office.com/owa/service.svc/s/GetFileAttachment?id=AAMkADQ5ZjQ0ZjEyLTY0ZDAtNDdhOC05ZjJjLTJmNjExZThlYjU4ZABGAAAAAAAVVTi%2BqAGRRq87o%2FK%2BDqRxBwDZ5o3KUZ1EQZ6HrkthkQ7aAAAAAAEMAADZ5o3KUZ1EQZ6HrkthkQ7aAADQjNvPAAABEgAQAES0pjlcD5hKnHdYaBkJWk4%3D&X-OWA-CANARY=9H5Hq5F-_kOCqZulNNyRFuBrc8BARtUYP2MFGKwQQ2lBH0d2QM8z6LT1_9aIWJnbXjnkCmqks-c[IMG][/url].
[IMG]https://outlook.office.com/owa/service.svc/s/GetAttachmentThumbnail?id=AAMkADQ5ZjQ0ZjEyLTY0ZDAtNDdhOC05ZjJjLTJmNjExZThlYjU4ZABGAAAAAAAVVTi%2BqAGRRq87o%2FK%2BDqRxBwDZ5o3KUZ1EQZ6HrkthkQ7aAAAAAAEMAADZ5o3KUZ1EQZ6HrkthkQ7aAADQjNvPAAABEgAQAM2Dq2UhfdFFrSSSZzAJr58%3D&thumbnailType=2&X-OWA-CANARY=9H5Hq5F-_kOCqZulNNyRFuBrc8BARtUYP2MFGKwQQ2lBH0d2QM8z6LT1_9aIWJnbXjnkCmqks-c.

 

[Platonic Solid]

D'J. - General shop work is a bit vague, plus I'm sure there are plenty of areas where you can get away with less light in a space that big. The Visual Photometric tool is a good place to start. Here are basic instructions to get you started (link) Required fc varies from 14fc on up.

Dialux Evo has a steeper learning curve and makes Visual look like a toy.

 

[cybrdyke]

My boss just asked me to look for light calculator for our shop overhaul. As you can see we have Spray foamed the interior and are in process of hanging White metal on Walls and Ceiling and are trying to figure light recommendations for a LED to hang and be used with surface mount Conduit. Shop dimensions are 122' X 48' X 14' General shop work will be preformed in the space Could you recommend a light Calculator for me to use?

DJ,
There's probably a dozen people in your town that work for electrical supply houses that will come and look at your building, give you suggestions, do a layout and sell you quality lights at a fair price.
Why bother doing all the research when you can just call them and have them come out ..... for FREE.
Pick whichever one you like....

CD

 

[rt9]

Saw this if any one is interested.
https://denver.craigslist.org/mat/d/led-shop-lights/6425937460.html

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

 

[jjscott]

Correct. Haven't seen any IES files for most of these cheaper fixtures.

Curious, what makes Lumegen a cheaper fixture? Is it the LED light strip, the driver, something else?

Would you be able to provide a recommendation for a higher quality fixture with a similar output? I don't want to spend a ridiculous amount of money, but I am willing to pay a bit more to get a decent fixture.

Thanks

 

[Platonic Solid]

I meant cheaper as in lower priced not necessarily lower quality as most/all of them are made in China anyway. I you want to spend more (2x+)for better perceived quality, try Metalux, Lithonia and Cree. FWIW, I'd buy the LumeGen. I've tested similar panels with no issues. No reason to throw your money away.

To answer your question - what makes Lumegen a cheaper fixture? Is it the LED light strip, the driver, something else? = Likely none of the above. The Chinese government subsidizes their manufacturers such that they can produce products at a loss. Impossible for U.S. manufacturers to compete with.

 

[jjscott]

LOL, no I don't want to spend more for better perceived quality, I just misunderstood your "cheaper" comment. I'm going to pull the trigger on 4 of the lights tomorrow and try them out before buying all of them. I have a few wiring questions for them that I need to get answered to understand what I'm getting myself into with the dimmer circuit. Not sure if I should hire an electrician or do it myself. Will probably create a separate post regarding it on this forum as well.

Thanks again for all your help!

 

[Platonic Solid]

I believe this is the dimmer you need: https://www.lightup.com/led-dimmer-switch-0-10v-single-3-way-mini-paddle-and-slider-lumegen.html
You'll need 2 as its max rating is 720W

Avoid Title 24 Compliant or Energy Saving dimmers as the way they save energy is by preventing full output = limited to 85% max output. In which case you may as well get cheaper fixtures.

 

[jjscott]

OK, I received four of the lights for evaluation and will hopefully be able to hang them this weekend and see how well they light up one area of the garage before purchasing the rest of them. I unpacked them and they look great...except for the two damaged ones! Their replacements are supposed to be here tomorrow.

Anyhow, I am a little concerned about using the supplied ribbed plastic drywall anchors to mount the frame & light to the drywall ceiling. They supply four per fixture. The light weighs 18.5 lbs. I was looking for options on Home Depot’s site and almost all of the drywall anchors they offer specifically state not to be used for ceiling mounts. Even the ones that are rated between 50-100 lbs.

The only one I could find that is acceptable for a ceiling mount seems overkill. Here is the link https://www.homedepot.com/p/E-Z-Ancor-Toggle-Lock-100-lb-Pan-Head-Philips-Heavy-Duty-Self-Drilling-Drywall-Anchors-with-Screws-10-Pack-25220/100153998

What do you guys think? Should I go with a heavier duty plastic anchor or the gonzo metal one listed above. Here's a link to the heavy duty plastic one https://www.homedepot.com/p/E-Z-Ancor-Twist-N-Lock-75-lb-Medium-Duty-Drywall-Anchors-50-Pack-25310/100040265

Here are links to the light and mounting frame for reference:

Light: https://www.lightup.com/flat-panel-2x4-led-light-72w-dim-200w-equiv-9000-lumens-lumegen.html

Mounting Frame: https://www.lightup.com/lumegen-2x4panel-surface-mount.html

 

[Platonic Solid]

I wouldn't hang any ceiling fixture from drywall with any type anchor. Find a way to use ceiling joists. There's lots of empty space in the mounting frame. Should be a way to use 1x2 or 1x3 wood or slotted steel angle to catch a joist and overlap the mounting frame lip securely.

 

[jjscott]

I wouldn't hang any ceiling fixture from drywall with any type anchor. Find a way to use ceiling joists. There's lots of empty space in the mounting frame. Should be a way to use 1x2 or 1x3 wood or slotted steel angle to catch a joist and overlap the mounting frame lip securely.

Good point. Thinking about toeing in a 2x4 section between joists to catch the "floating" side of the frame. The other side would be screwed directly into the ceiling joist.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Just make sure one side of the mounting frame is removable so you can slide the light fixture in and the driver clears any adapter brackets you make.

Another option, which might be way easier, would be to attach a 2'x4' piece of plywood to the ceiling - fastened primarily to joists - then attach the frame to the plywood.

Or - same as above, but leave screws loose on plywood such that you can slide the ceiling side frame lip between plywood and ceiling - then tighten screws. This assumes there is enough space between the back of the fixture driver and the frame**. In this method, plywood should be cut same dimension as light panel = 47.75 x 23.75

** According to the website, the frame is 2.5" deep and the panel and driver are 1.77" deep = 0.73" remaining. Subtract 1/4" for frame metal thickness and that leaves you with 0.48" available clearance. Based on this I'd go with 47.75 x 23.75 x 3/8" plywood on frame interior.

 

[smalltown]

Platonic I was imagining just how to hang 2x2 led panels, and was following jjscott's questions. In the meantime I saw this video from Great Britain, and thought I would share the link. He was hanging 1x4 led panels.
I wonder if this would violate any NEC codes in the US.

That said if a wooden box was acceptable a couple of pieces of wood could be added to the top of the build to allow the screwing of the surface mount box to my 16" on center trusses. Just thought it might be of interest to jjscott.

It's a little long, but he does a fine job of explaining.

 

[Platonic Solid]

smalltown - A little long is an understatement. I skipped 95% of it. Can't tell if he's screwing into anything other than drywall. If he's just got 2 screws in drywall, that's too weak for my taste. It's not exactly rocket science, but since the surface mount kits are only $20-$25, I'd sooner buy them.

 

[cybrdyke]

Ya know, they make them now so you can just snap them onto a drywall ceiling. Just like the round wafer lights.
CD

 

[cybrdyke]

All that effort and all he ended up with is an oak trimmed frosted lens which looks exactly like the ugly fluorescent I've had in my kitchen since 1990. Gross.
CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

Ya know, they make them now so you can just snap them onto a drywall ceiling. Just like the round wafer lights.
CD

I haven't seen those. Got any example links?

 

[Platonic Solid]

All that effort and all he ended up with is an oak trimmed frosted lens which looks exactly like the ugly fluorescent I've had in my kitchen since 1990. Gross.
CD

 

[cybrdyke]

I haven't seen those. Got any example links?

https://www.liteline.com/20000332-master_ledp-clips/recessed-clips/forum-recessed-mount

As far as I know, this example is specific to this brand, Liteline.
In this case, you would use a template provided with the clips to cut out holes for the clips and the drivers. Then the panel sits right on the drywall. Very nice.
Alternate mounting methods include a 2x4 or 2x2 "mud ring" and 2 methods for suspension mounting. The mud ring involves a cutting a full size hole into the ceiling and mudding in a frame. The panel snaps into the frame. To suspend the panel with chain or aircraft cable, you can either use the triangular clips in the corners of the panel or you can use a frame kit and suspend that with the panel inside it. Suspended panels look sweeeeet.
CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

https://www.liteline.com/20000332-master_ledp-clips/recessed-clips/forum-recessed-mount

As far as I know, this example is specific to this brand, Liteline.
In this case, you would use a template provided with the clips to cut out holes for the clips and the drivers. Then the panel sits right on the drywall. Very nice.
Alternate mounting methods include a 2x4 or 2x2 "mud ring" and 2 methods for suspension mounting. The mud ring involves a cutting a full size hole into the ceiling and mudding in a frame. The panel snaps into the frame. To suspend the panel with chain or aircraft cable, you can either use the triangular clips in the corners of the panel or you can use a frame kit and suspend that with the panel inside it. Suspended panels look sweeeeet.
CD

OK, I've seen those clips online, which seem fine for small rounds and squares that only need 2, but awkward for larger fixtures that would need 4. The spring tension would have to be just right between providing enough holding force and not damage the drywall upon future removal. Not feeling the love for this clip on large panels.

 

[Platonic Solid]

jjscott - Apparently attaching the surface mount frames directly to drywall is common practice. Here's a Youtube installation video I stumbled on:

 

[cybrdyke]

OK, I've seen those clips online, which seem fine for small rounds and squares that only need 2, but awkward for larger fixtures that would need 4. The spring tension would have to be just right between providing enough holding force and not damage the drywall upon future removal. Not feeling the love for this clip on large panels.

Not awkward at all. These are not generic online clips, but are designed specifically for this manufacturers panel. In a 4' panel, you would use 6, not just 4, so the holding power is great...strong enough to hold the fixture firm, but light enough so that removal is no issue. A flat panel, surface mounted, without some clunky metal frame looks great once installed. Practically invisible when turned off. Surface mount kits are **** ugly and defeat the design purpose of the flat panel.
CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

The original purpose of 2x2, 1x4 & 2x4 flat panels is for "T" grid installation. Hence why they actually measure 23.75x23.75, 11.75x47.75 & 23.75x47.75. Surface or recess mounting them to drywall ceilings is an afterthought. 4 clips sounded awkward, 6 clips sounds impossible unless you have 6 hands. I guess I need a video to envision the 6-clips-on-flat-panel-in-drywall installation process.

Edit:
They sell flush mountable LED panels that have the driver in the panel frame and come with a simple ceiling plate, but price is quite a bit higher than the grid mount versions and surface conduit mounting is not an option.

Example links: Superbrightled, HD Commercial Electric.

 

[jjscott]

OK, so my friend and I temporarily hung and wired four of the lights in the garage late this afternoon. Note: by the time we were able to evaluate the results, it was dark outside and no dimmer was used.

We did two rows of two…basically a square in one corner of the garage. At first we were a bit surprised with the results…while they provide good coverage, they didn’t seem overpowering. The 4k color is definitely a bright white, obviously much brighter than the existing three incandescent bulbs they are replacing. While reviewing the lighting, our first reaction was that no dimmer would be necessary. Like I said, it just didn’t feel overpowering and even when adding the additional lights, we didn’t feel that one would be necessary. Not sure if that will be the case. Read on…

We are picking up a lot of reflectance off the flat white walls, which is a good thing especially off the long wall where my workbench will be installed. We installed the lights 2ft off that wall with the workbench in mind. I will be pulling the row of lights on the opposite end off a bit more. Maybe 3-4 feet. This is the end where the garage doors are located.

The shock to our eyes was when we went inside the house. Oh my god was it dim inside!!!!! It’s amazing how my your eyes get used to a certain light level and you just process it as normal. I just opened the garage door and flipped the lights on while typing this post and it’s shock to the eyes. Kinda feels like National Lampoons Christmas Vacation when Chevy Chase flipped on his Christmas lights the first time and this is only with four of the lights hooked up. I will admit that the location of the lights are right next to the entrance of the house so I get blasted when opening the door.

Anyhow, I think the original spec of 12 lights, 4 rows of 3 will be overkill. I think I’m going with 3 rows of 3. Should be plenty. Just to be safe, I think I’m going to pull wire for the dimmer circuit while doing the finish install.

Glad I only bought four lights for an initial test! I’ll try and post some pics tomorrow.

 

[Platonic Solid]

jjscott - Your original request was: "I like the idea of installing fixtures that are a brighter than my needs, so dimmable fixtures would be appropriate. The last thing I want is for it to not be bright enough and then have to replace them." thus the layout I made yielded 98fc @ workplane. In this instance with this fixture you can go to a 3x3 layout without having areas that are too dim. Resulting yield = 72fc @ workplane.

 

[jjscott]

Not your fault at all. Your layout was just what I asked for. I just didn’t realize how bright it was gonna be.

I think 3x3 will be fine and might need a dimmer switch, but I won’t know until I get the rest hung.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Platonic Solid]

Another important factor is your age. Are you over or under 50?

Page 19 of this PDF (link) is a good guide to age and illuminance recommendation.

 

[jjscott]

Yep, over the big five zero.

 

[smalltown]

The term High Bay isn't appropriate for a 10,400 lumen fixture. Just ignore that. So yes, that will work nicely at 11ft.

Did you notice the 2x4 flat panel edge lit you selected is only available in 3000K?

Platonic how low of a ceiling would be ok for these fixtures ?

 

[Platonic Solid]

smalltown - Which fixture are you referring to,the 10,400 Lm (link) or 9,000 Lm flat panel (link)?

 

[smalltown]

Platonic the 10,400 Lm