Lighting: Overboard, or WAY overboard?

[maxGarage]

Hi All,

You might have seen my garage design in my other post:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322405&showall=1

It's 26' wide and 28' deep, with very tall vaulted ceilings.

It looks like this: (more mock ups on the other post)

I'm working on my electrical plan right now. I like it BRIGHT. I spend much of my time in the garage at night. That said, this whole thing is on a TIGHT budget. I'm doing all the work myself, so materials cost is a huge portion of the project cost.

There is no question LED is the way to go for me, given the high electricity costs in CA. Running the numbers, the two most cost effective options seems to be:

A) Using dirt-cheap 4' florescent fixtures, pulling out the ballast and putting in 4' T8 LED tubes

B) Using a boatload of 60 watt equivalent "regular" (A19) bulbs in the world's cheapest light fixture: the simple screw-in socket.

Both options I'm sure will be very bright, it will be a LONG time before I have to replace bulbs, and won't use much energy.

In my mind my space is broken into three zones:
1) left bay
2) right bay
3) work bench area in front of cars.

I will wire 3 switches accordingly.

Below are the options I came up with. I have a "lean" and "fat" variation of both the T8 tube and A19 bulb approach.

The T8 options are more expensive, but give a lot more lumens. While the A19 involves installing a lot more fixtures, I've installed loads of those in barns and could do it very fast, so the extra install is a non-issue.

What do you think? Max

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[MushCreek]

I just bought a bunch of 4' LED fixtures off of ebay. It was like $130 for 10 of them. They're ready to go; self contained. That's cheaper than buying cheap fluorescent fixtures, not even including bulbs. They are only a single strip, but they are quite bright. I'm planning to get some more to light up my workshop. One thing I like is that they have connectors to plug them in end-to-end, so you only have to wire the first one in a row. Other guys on here have used them, apparently with good success.

 

[maxGarage]

Do you have link? Could be another option.

 

[JoeFin]

If cost is a consideration then 4' Fluorescent T-8s with Electronic ballast will be your best option.

I haven't performed cost comparison in a few years but LED compared to Fluorescent, initial investment and operating cost, it will take 10 years of 2000 hr per yr operation to come out ahead with LEDs

White ceilings help but after that walls and floor don't make that much of a difference

As far your design I like option 2 with some zone switching. Not a big fan of flooding inspection areas such as work benches with too much fluorescent light. Some where after 70 - 80 lumen per ft you start closing the retina of the eye with too much red shifted white light typical of fluorescents (rods and cones)

For those areas I use a combination of fluorescent and halogen spots coming from over the shoulder as avoid too much glare or reflection off glasses

 

[Techie1961]

T8 LED Fat option. I have a very bright shop and wish it was brighter at times. I was on a tight budget also and picked up a bunch or used 4' florescent fixtures cheap. Sixteen total with four tubes each in a shop that's about 750 ft. sq. One word of advise on the layout. When I'm working in the shop, it's great but when I get closer to the walls, there are too many shadows. I should have put some right near the walls to eliminate that if I knew that then.

BTW, I hope you can get rid of those inspectors. They'll cause you a lot of grief if they stick around like that.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . add windows up high in that gap above the lower slanting roof.

FREE lighting !!!

 

[burger]

I just installed LED bulbs into several old T12 fixtures that had bad ballasts. I am extremely impressed with the light output, the lack of strobing, and the immediate full brightness.

That being said, they are not as cost effective as T8 bulbs and fixtures. The only reason I went this route is because I had the T12 fixtures.

Here's a link to the bulbs that I purchased.
http://www.beeslighting.com/product-p/t818w1200bixxdf40f1.htm

Hope this helps,
Ed

 

[lakeroadster]

..There is no question LED is the way to go for me, given the high electricity costs in CA. Running the numbers, the two most cost effective options seems to be:

A) Using dirt-cheap 4' florescent fixtures, pulling out the ballast and putting in 4' T8 LED tubes

B) Using a boatload of 60 watt equivalent "regular" (A19) bulbs in the world's cheapest light fixture: the simple screw-in socket.

I like the way you think. Nice job on the Excel Spreadsheet layout.

I vote for Option B.

I'm doing something similar, but will use either LED Flood lights in my barn, or use the A19 bulbs with a twin socket adapter @ each fixture location.

I'll know which way once I do a bit of R&D.

Twin Socket Adapter: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...t-Lamp-Holder-Adapter-R52-00128-00W/100356967

LED Flood: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-...immable-LED-Flood-Light-Bulb-435016/205213868

add windows up high in that gap above the lower slanting roof.

^^^^ yeah, like he said.

Jeld-Wen makes some nice insulated windows that would fit nicely there.

 

[bczygan]

In the T8 LED tube "FAT" layout, you have 14 fixtures.

That is exactly half of what you need for a nice bright garage and shop..

Bill

 

[lakeroadster]

In the T8 LED tube "FAT" layout, you have 14 fixtures.

That is exactly half of what you need for a nice bright garage and shop..

Bill

Opinions vary..... retinal damage not withstanding.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

IMO you could loose 1 vertical row and 1 horizontal row in your fat tube layout without much of a noticeable difference.
Put in outlets on three circuits as you have planned. New LED fixtures (and other options) are hitting the market quite often.

 

[MushCreek]

These are similar to what I bought:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pc-4FT-18...hash=item19fc0d1128:m:mItbJ-Bipal0TgjYPX9mFGQ

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . add windows up high in that gap above the lower slanting roof.

FREE lighting !!!

^ ^ ^ Forgot to also recommend for those upper windows:
. . . .
. . . . . . . have some of them functional so they can open with a long crankhandle.

Those would give you great ventilation through the shop for natural cooling. Put a box fan in window on N side of building pulling in cool air that would push hot air out the top.

 

[maxGarage]

So, I did a bit more research.

While my layouts calculate the light output in lumens based on the bulb specs, the real question is how many lumens do I need?

It seems that LUX and footcandles are both measurements of lumens per unit of area.

LUX is lumens per square meters, footcandles is lumens per square foot. LUX seems to be more popular, so we'll stick with it.

By 26x28 is appropriately 67.7 square meters. Multiple that by the desired LUX, and we have lumens!

So, what are some standard LUX's. Here's a table from: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/light-level-rooms-d_708.html

<div class="center"> <table class="large"> <thead> <tr> <td style="width: 66%;">Activity</td> <td style="width: 33%;">Illumination<br /> <i>(lux, lumen/m²)</i></td> </tr> </thead> <tbody> <tr> <td>Public areas with dark surroundings</td> <td>20 - 50</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Simple orientation for short visits</td> <td>50 - 100</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Working areas where visual tasks are only occasionally performed</td> <td>100 - 150</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Warehouses, Homes, Theaters, Archives</td> <td>150</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Easy Office Work, Classes</td> <td>250</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Normal Office Work, PC Work, Study Library, Groceries, Show Rooms, Laboratories</td> <td>500</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Supermarkets, Mechanical Workshops, Office Landscapes</td> <td>750</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Normal Drawing Work, Detailed Mechanical Workshops, Operation Theaters</td> <td>1,000</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Detailed Drawing Work, Very Detailed Mechanical Works</td> <td>1500 - 2000</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Performance of visual tasks of low contrast  and very small size for prolonged periods of time</td> <td>2000 - 5000</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Performance of very prolonged and exacting visual tasks </td> <td>5000 - 10000</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Performance of very special visual tasks of extremely low contrast and small size</td> <td>10000 - 20000</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </div>


Doing the math the other way, here's what each of the 4 proposals would give me:

"T8 Tube Fat" (14x dual tube fix. w/ LED bulbs)= 64,400 lumens / 67.7 m^2 = 951 LUX
Brighter than a grocery store, nearly as bright as a machine shop

"T8 Tube Lean" (9x dual tube fix. w/ LED bulbs) = 41,400 lumens / 67.7 m^2 = 611 LUX
Brighter than a office, darker than a grocery store

"A19 Fat" (60x screw in LED bulbs) = 48,000 lumens / 67.7 m^2 = 709 LUX
Brighter than a office, almost a grocery store

"A19 Lean" (28x screw in LED bulbs) = 22,400 lumens / 67.7 m^2 = 331 LUX
Brighter than a class room, darker than an office


Wow, those numbers surprise me!

I think I want to be up near grocery story level!

 

[maxGarage]

That's 36 bulbs in a 13x21 space.
9 are150 equivalent, the rest are 60.
Cfl for now.

It's not enough.
100w led equivalent is replacing them soon.
I'll still need fill and detail lights.

Using the LUX math:

The 60w equivalent cfl makes about 840 lumens according to HomeDepot
The 150w equivalent cfl makes about 2,800 lumens according to HomeDepot

9 x 2,800 lumens = 25,200 lumens
27 x 840 lumens = 22,680 lumens

Total 47,880 lumens.

Your shop is 13x21 = 273 sq ft.
273 sqt feet = 25.4 sq meters.

47,800 lumens / 25.4 sq meters = 1,881 LUX

According to the math that place should be very bright

 

[mikegt4]

Don't forget to consider where the garage doors will be when they are open, they will no dought be blocking some light fixtures. Maybe some side (wall) lighting below the door tracks.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Don't forget to consider where the garage doors will be when they are open, they will no dought be blocking some light fixtures. Maybe some side (wall) lighting below the door tracks.

I agree, it's reasons like this why I prefer to put lights where I need it rather than a typical spa ing pattern on the ceiling.

 

[maxGarage]

These are similar to what I bought:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pc-4FT-18...hash=item19fc0d1128:m:mItbJ-Bipal0TgjYPX9mFGQ

Are you happy with them. Looks like you paid $13/bulb, which is what the naked bulbs cost elsewhere. The difference is, these ones don't need a fixture. Seems like a cool option!

 

[Dhagan887]

Using the LUX math:

The 60w equivalent cfl makes about 840 lumens according to HomeDepot
The 150w equivalent cfl makes about 2,800 lumens according to HomeDepot

9 x 2,800 lumens = 25,200 lumens
27 x 840 lumens = 22,680 lumens

Total 47,880 lumens.

Your shop is 13x21 = 273 sq ft.
273 sqt feet = 25.4 sq meters.

47,800 lumens / 25.4 sq meters = 1,881 LUX

According to the math that place should be very bright

Mine figures about 1300 using that, but my 'light switch calculator' says it's only adequate. Several fixture short of where I'd like to be.

 

[Pathfinder]

maxGarage - I went with the A-19 lighting solution in my woodworking and automotive shops and I love the lighting. I find it a much more versatile lighting solution than flourescent or LED strip lighting. If you need more light in a specific area just pop in a higher lumen lamp and you're all set. See the Garage Journal thread linked below for Veno's excellent take on porcelain base A-19 lighting. He incorporated screw-in reflectors that take a porcelain base to the next level with way better light spread. I will never use strip lighting again for general area lighting in a home shop.

SCREW-IN REFLECTOR LIGHTING

Garge Journal Thread on screw-in reflector lighting

Retro Fit Ceiling Light – Porcelain base Screw-in Reflector Pricing

Hardware World $9.69

Farmtek $19.95

Amazon $17.99

Menards has Farm House Light Fixture Reflectors in store for $13 +/- or
Online $16.99

John Minton

 

[archauto]

The more the better where you need them. Uppper windows definitely, but they dont help at night. You might want to consider lights near the floor for when you work on the lower reaches of your cars. You might consider 8' fluorescent and put one on each side of your overhead doors as well as over the doors.
This scenario might be the least expensive to start with, then when the bulbs burn out the LED's will be cheap enough to replace them with. Put plenty of circuits in so you can control how much or how little light you want to use. If you have upper cabinets make sure to have under cabinet lights. If your not planning on uppers, wire it as if you were going to... for the future
My 2 cents. Have fun

 

[iajonesy]

Go to COSTCO and buy their 4' double tube LED fixtures for < $35 each and get the best lighting you have ever had.

Mike

 

[justanengineer]

JMO but it seems youre way overthinking this. Realistically, you have a 2.5 car garage not a barn. Given some of your numbers it would seem youre looking at pretty solidly covering the ceiling with unnecessary fixtures. I like BRIGHT too as I work at night and use machine tools, squinting at micrometer dial graduations isnt fun by any means. For your garage I'd buy three, 8' (2 bulbs wide, 2 deep) T8 fixtures for <$100 total cash outlay including bulbs. Center one over each bay and another turned 90 across the back, it'll be more than you'll need with decent bulbs.

 

[jgorm]

Go to COSTCO and buy their 4' double tube LED fixtures for < $35 each and get the best lighting you have ever had.

Mike

They were on sale 2 weeks ago for $25 each. Looks like $30 each now. I bought 6 of the 2 bulb fixtures. They are great!
http://www.costco.com/4’-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain,-2-pack.product.100223617.html

 

[Dhagan887]

JMO but it seems youre way overthinking this. Realistically, you have a 2.5 car garage not a barn. Given some of your numbers it would seem youre looking at pretty solidly covering the ceiling with unnecessary fixtures. I like BRIGHT too as I work at night and use machine tools, squinting at micrometer dial graduations isnt fun by any means. For your garage I'd buy three, 8' (2 bulbs wide, 2 deep) T8 fixtures for <$100 total cash outlay including bulbs. Center one over each bay and another turned 90 across the back, it'll be more than you'll need with decent bulbs.

Enough to park the car and find your way out but I could never happily work with 3 in 725'. All in what you're used to I guess.

 

[maxGarage]

Very intrigued by the fixtures that MushCreek just bought. With a little digging, these can be sourced for $8 each. It's the same LED tube that you would get for a T8 retrofit, but it comes with a small housing so it can be mounted directly to the ceiling with no fixture.

They also come with little connectors to join them end-to-end. I'm thinking I could join (3) together to make 12' fixtures, and arrange them as shown. A total of 48 fixtures would give me over 100,000 lumens, and cost less than $400.

 

[srr]

They were on sale 2 weeks ago for $25 each. Looks like $30 each now. I bought 6 of the 2 bulb fixtures. They are great!
http://www.costco.com/4’-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain,-2-pack.product.100223617.html

I converted my garage to these and was amazed at how much better lit it is. One thing I didn't see mentioned was the 4' fluorescent lights don't last and dim over time, plus the buzzing and the flickering...no thanks! Seems like I was always changing bulbs. These LED look as bright now as when I installed them several months ago. I have my lighting zoned also. Being almost 60 lots of light is mandatory. The pic is with only 2 LED fixtures. I've since added 6 more and plan to convert my under eave lighting also.

 

[BruceMc]

In the T8 LED tube "FAT" layout, you have 14 fixtures.

That is exactly half of what you need for a nice bright garage and shop..

Bill

Agreed. It's enough to be workable, but certainly not going to be all that bright. I have a 28x32 with a dozen 8' T-8 fixtures (equivalent to 24 four footers). It's 'nice and bright', but it's still darker than plain-old normal daylight outside. And unless you find working outside too bright, you are in no danger of eye damage with those layouts.

 

[bczygan]

My off the cuff estimate that the "Fat" layout is half what it needs to be is based on my own 1 car garage. It is 19' something by 9' something with 8 1/2' ceilings. I have 8 - 4'x2 tube fluorescent fixtures hung at 8'. They are 6500K daylight color.

I get under 60FC at the 3' work surface directly under the lights, with falloff in between and in the corners and along walls to under 50FC. Walls and ceiling are bright white.

The OP's garage is more than 3 1/2 times as big, so 28 fixtures would light him up similarly if he had the same ceiling configuration. But he has a tall cavernous ceiling. So he will need even more than that.

Bill

 

[bczygan]

It’s hard to know what the light levels really mean without relating them to something you are familiar with. Some examples would be:
Outside on a sunny day (skylight, not direct sun)………1200 footcandles
Outside on a cloudy day or in the shade………………….350 footcandles
Inside when the sun is shining into a room………..200 to 800 footcandles
Inside on a cloudy day……………………………..……3 to 6 footcandles
A typical interior office………………………………30 to 40 footcandles
Under a desk lamp……………………………………30 to 80 footcandles
A typical living room at night……………………………….6 footcandles
A front porch lit by a 60 watt bulb……………………1.5 to 3 footcandles
Outside under the full moon……………………………..0.013 footcandle

Some equivalent lumen levels are
A 60 watt porch light…………………………………………..800 lumens
A 250 watt halogen floor lamp………………………………4,000 lumens
The typical flood light at a car dealership……...40,000 to 100,000 lumens

 

[Ray916MN]

The ceiling angles and peak ceiling height in this building design make predicting work level lighting a bit challenging. Without dropping/hanging the fixtures, against the ceiling fixtures are going to throw a significant amount of light at the ceiling and walls, as opposed to the floor. As best as I can tell the peak of the ceiling is above the level where high bay lighting should be considered.

If lighting efficiency is important, I would consider hanging fixtures horizontally at a consistent height so less light is lost to lighting the ceilings and walls. Without doing this, I suspect it is going to take a lot more lighting to achieve the desired work level lighting that is predicted using the assumption of a non-high bay horizontal ceiling which is implicit in all the lighting calculations which are being used in this thread.

 

[cybrdyke]

Using the LUX math:

The 60w equivalent cfl makes about 840 lumens according to HomeDepot
The 150w equivalent cfl makes about 2,800 lumens according to HomeDepot

9 x 2,800 lumens = 25,200 lumens
27 x 840 lumens = 22,680 lumens

Total 47,880 lumens.

Your shop is 13x21 = 273 sq ft.
273 sqt feet = 25.4 sq meters.

47,800 lumens / 25.4 sq meters = 1,881 LUX

According to the math that place should be very bright

Sorry to tell you that you're doing it wrong. You cant determine footcandles by dividing the square footage of your space by lumens from a lamp. Doesn't work like that.
I understand how it can be misconstrued that way, however, because alot of the terms in the science of lighting seem very similar.
The only way to determine the amount of footcandles (we're in the USA) on your target is with computer lighting software. Ask someone to do a layout for you.

 

[Angelfire]

I typically refer folks who are designing their shop lighting to this article which has worked well for me:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content.php?146-Lighting-the-Small-Workshop-by-Jack-Lindsey

 

[Jackfre]

Go to COSTCO and buy their 4' double tube LED fixtures for < $35 each and get the best lighting you have ever had.

Mike

I'm with lajonsey on this one. My 30x34x10 shop has 4 individually switched banks of 4 of these Costco lights. When I walk into the shop and throw the switch I don't have to wait for the fluorescent tubes to decide to give light. The LED's come right up. Simple install as well. Mine are flush mounted. I cut the cord to about 15" and ran them to a standard box with a compression type face plate. They trimmed out nicely. The lighting in the space is even and it is bright.

 

[bczygan]

I typically refer folks who are designing their shop lighting to this article which has worked well for me:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content.php?146-Lighting-the-Small-Workshop-by-Jack-Lindsey

This is a good discussion. And using it, I did a calculation for my shop/garage.

# fixtures = (desired fc) x (shop area) x (2) / (lumens per lamp) x (# lamps per fixture)
= (100 fc) x (200 sq. ft.) x (2) / (2700 lumens) x (2) = 8 fixtures

=40,000 / 5400 = 7.4

And instead of 100FC, I actually measure 50-60FC. Machinery and dark bench tops and cabinets on the wall all degrade the result.

So I have good enough general illumination for a young man, but need additional task lighting for my old eyes.

Bill

 

[cybrdyke]

This is a good discussion. And using it, I did a calculation for my shop/garage.

# fixtures = (desired fc) x (shop area) x (2) / (lumens per lamp) x (# lamps per fixture)
= (100 fc) x (200 sq. ft.) x (2) / (2700 lumens) x (2) = 8 fixtures

=40,000 / 5400 = 7.4

And instead of 100FC, I actually measure 50-60FC. Machinery and dark bench tops and cabinets on the wall all degrade the result.

So I have good enough general illumination for a young man, but need additional task lighting for my old eyes.

Bill

See, this is a great example of why these formulas dont work. There are too many factors that aren't considered.
First, this makes no concern about what kind of light source or fixture that you are using.
Second, it makes no concern about any reflective surfaces or photometrics.
Third, it makes no concern about ceiling height (of which the OP has VERY high ceilings compared to normal)
It makes no concern about lumen depreciation, ballast factor, fixture losses, dirt....
It makes no concern about the task at hand.
It simply says "make all your calcs and then times it by two."

And a poor guy like Bill did the calcs, shooting for 100fc, and only comes up to 50 or 60.
I wouldn't recommend this formula at all.

 

[bczygan]

I'm with lajonsey on this one. My 30x34x10 shop has 4 individually switched banks of 4 of these Costco lights. When I walk into the shop and throw the switch I don't have to wait for the fluorescent tubes to decide to give light. The LED's come right up. Simple install as well. Mine are flush mounted. I cut the cord to about 15" and ran them to a standard box with a compression type face plate. They trimmed out nicely. The lighting in the space is even and it is bright.

What is your FC measurement at 3'?

Bill

 

[bczygan]

See, this is a great example of why these formulas dont work. There are too many factors that aren't considered.
First, this makes no concern about what kind of light source or fixture that you are using.
Second, it makes no concern about any reflective surfaces or photometrics.
Third, it makes no concern about ceiling height (of which the OP has VERY high ceilings compared to normal)
It makes no concern about lumen depreciation, ballast factor, fixture losses, dirt....
It makes no concern about the task at hand.
It simply says "make all your calcs and then times it by two."

And a poor guy like Bill did the calcs, shooting for 100fc, and only comes up to 50 or 60.
I wouldn't recommend this formula at all.

I actually think it is great, if you know it is a rule of thumb based on a typical situation. Even with this light level, I still have dark holes under benches and machines.

Over on the lighting and electrical part of the forum, a member named Platonic, has used a program to make more accurate plots.

What I ended up with, is for me, an adequate general illumination level.

Here's a couple of photos of the garage/shop. Note that the ceiling is missing and a couple of lights in the wrong place, but general illumination is good.

Bill

 

[cybrdyke]

I actually think it is great, if you know it is a rule of thumb based on a typical situation. Even with this light level, I still have dark holes under benches and machines.

Over on the lighting and electrical part of the forum, a member named Platonic, has used a program to make more accurate plots.

What I ended up with, is for me, an adequate general illumination level.

Bill

I'm glad that your happy.
But I couldn't recommend a "rule of thumb" that was off by 50%.
CD

 

[buening]

I personally think your strip light layout is way undersized. I have an 31x26 800sf 3 car garage and have 12 fixtures of four 4' T8 bulbs (6 rows of 2 fixtures). That is a total of 48 bulbs utilizing the Sylvania F032/841/ECO 32w 4100k bulbs. I still feel like I need more light in there when working on things.

Assuming I'm reading your diagram correctly, one of them has 28 bulbs of 22w. Your square footage isn't a whole lot less than mine. I think you'll be looking for a lot more light once you get them installed.