Lighting: Overboard, or WAY overboard?

[Stevie-Ray]

I originally installed 13 4 foot double fixtures in my 24x48 garage to start with. It lit the thing up like daylight-or so I thought. You soon find out that more is better when it comes to garage lighting. I have since added 5 more, and will likely add 6 to that for a total of 24, when I am done. The pic below is of the original 13. Looks pretty good, but as you work in it, you find it insufficient. Luckily I installed enough receptacles to expand, should the need arise.

 

[bczygan]

I'm glad that your happy.
But I couldn't recommend a "rule of thumb" that was off by 50%.
CD

Actually my rule of thumb is even simpler. 1 fixture for each 25SF.

Bill

 

[BruceMc]

Pictures of lighting are subject to all kinds of distortions, but while I was working this morning I thought this might illustrate why "it's like daylight in there" is so much hyperbole.

The first picture is a 28x32x12 with 48 T-8s and the second is how daylight (low winter sun through a dirty low-e window) compares on a work surface:

 

[buening]

BruceMc, it sounds like we have the exact same amount of lighting! My ceilings are only 10' though, but same garage dimensions and same # of bulbs.

 

[Jackfre]

What is your FC measurement at 3'?

Bill

Z as I said. My FC is even and bright

 

[justanengineer]

Enough to park the car and find your way out but I could never happily work with 3 in 725'. All in what you're used to I guess.

Nah, its not about getting used to anything, its about simple science. Even for us half-blind bats vision isnt really about available light level its about contrast. Given the same sunny day, you'll see much better outside in the summer when everything is contrasting medium shades of color vs during winter when everything is the same snowy white bc the better the contrast the easier your brain processes it. The same applies in the shop, if you look in most industrial buildings/plants/factories you'll see high, widely spaced lights and medium browns, yellows, grays, and greens on walls and floors rather than white to allow folks to see easier. You want medium contrasting colors and light fixtures spaced enough to hit the wall and diffuse rather than reflect and create shadows. Get the balance right and you dont need nearly as many fixtures as you think. Paint your walls white or add a solid wall of lights on the ceiling and its counterproductive, you'll be in an overly bright shop and still swear you can never have too many lights bc youre still struggling to see at times. I'm grounded from flying until I get corrective lenses (maybe in a few years eh?), and with the setup I described in my previous garage I could easily read the engraved mic dials on my machine tools at a quick glance.

 

[Dhagan887]

I understand the thought process, but comparing summer and snow on a sunny day is far from reality in a garage where the contrast is there in most cases. 3 4 bulb t8's would be completely inadequate in his space if it is used for any type of work at all. I have more than double the lumens in a smaller garage with low ceilings and it's just adequate. Far from bright

 

[SIX225]

I agree with the more is better. You can never have too much light. While I think LED is the way to go, I'd maybe try to hold off on those another year or so. While cost has come down significantly, I think it will come down even more and quality will go up too. I'm hold off on replacing the old T12 that take forever to warm up in winter. Anyone know if bugs are attracted to LEDs during the summer? Might be another reason to upgrade too.

 

[cybrdyke]

I agree with the more is better. You can never have too much light. While I think LED is the way to go, I'd maybe try to hold off on those another year or so. While cost has come down significantly, I think it will come down even more and quality will go up too. I'm hold off on replacing the old T12 that take forever to warm up in winter. Anyone know if bugs are attracted to LEDs during the summer? Might be another reason to upgrade too.

I dont understand the 'waiting' mentality. now, you can get a 60w equivalent bulb (9 watts, saving you 70% energy) for $2.50. You can get a 4' LED strip for $30-ish, which is damn cheap. What you are saying is to wait a year and maybe, just maybe, it will be $25? At this point, you'll have spent more than $5 in energy.
There have been lots of studies on bugs vs. LED's. There are varying reports. LED's have no UV and very little heat, which alot of bugs are attracted to. But they also are heavy in the blue wavelength, especially the blue-er colors like 6500k and 5000k, which is what some other types of bugs like. The consensus seems to be that you'll notice a great reduction of bug attraction, but not completely losing them all.
CD

 

[Showkey]

The Costco fixtures mentioned has dropped to $24. The drop has happened quick as that fixture was $37 6 months ago.

LUX measurement ...........use your smart phone get the free app. ( YES, it is NOT a scientific instrument, but it is far better than guessing ) Wonder around your old shop or your friends shop. Measure the light a different locations, your likely to be surprised. If your doing comparison it does not matter if the device is not perfectly calibrated. If the measurement is repeatable it is good enough for shop evaluation.

My goal was 1000 LUX on the table saw top. With a 9' ceiling ( open rafter basement) 4 T8 are needed to get to the 1000 LUX. The floor near the saw might get 500 LUX.
8' bench top with 3 two bulb T8 in reflector fixture yields 1300 LUX at the bench top. Fixture to bench top is 48", white peg board on the wall in front of the bench.

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[bczygan]

lakeroadster,

Thank you for the above info. Very helpful!

Bill

 

[Dhagan887]

Very intrigued by the fixtures that MushCreek just bought. With a little digging, these can be sourced for $8 each. It's the same LED tube that you would get for a T8 retrofit, but it comes with a small housing so it can be mounted directly to the ceiling with no fixture.

They also come with little connectors to join them end-to-end. I'm thinking I could join (3) together to make 12' fixtures, and arrange them as shown. A total of 48 fixtures would give me over 100,000 lumens, and cost less than $400.
]

These have my interest as well. I found a source for 24w 2400 lumen fixtures for $6.96 ea shipped when buying a case of 25. 5yr warranty. 100,000hr life 120000 lumens (100 lumens /watt). Found better ratios than that, but only 50000 Hr life and 3 year warranty. For approx $350, roughly 1.7x the light I currently have, and power draw would be slightly less than I'm currently using

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That assumes the hour life claim has any basis in real life............not sure everyone is "playing ( testing) by the same rules".

 

[ValveCoverGasket]

The Costco fixtures mentioned has dropped to $24. The drop has happened quick as that fixture was $37 6 months ago.

are you having to go in-store to find those prices?

the link in the earlier post shows it as back up to $60

 

[maxGarage]

These have my interest as well. I found a source for 24w 2400 lumen fixtures for $6.96 ea shipped when buying a case of 25. 5yr warranty. 100,000hr life 120000 lumens (100 lumens /watt). Found better ratios than that, but only 50000 Hr life and 3 year warranty. For approx $350, roughly 1.7x the light I currently have, and power draw would be slightly less than I'm currently using

Do you have a link? That's a better deal then I have found. I'm thinking of buying 50+

 

[Dhagan887]

http://m.dhgate.com/product/super-bright-18w-24w-30w-36w-46w-g13-fa8/243428135.html#Viewsdr

Yes lots of assumptions, but it doesn't cost much more than a fluorescent lamp haha.

 

[Showkey]

are you having to go in-store to find those prices?

the link in the earlier post shows it as back up to $60

I purchased two at $24 each in the store on March 5. I think there was an instant rebate ( sale) for $6 off.

This link shows two fixtures for $60 so $30 each.

http://www.costco.com/4’-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain,-2-pack.product.100223617.html

 

[cybrdyke]

You do realize the computer does nothing that a human can't do, right? It most certainly can be done without computer software, the software just makes it easier.

Thank you Captain Obvious.
Enjoy the stone age.

In any event.... last year I created this as a cross reference...

Yes, I see the charts you created on EngineeringToolbox.com here: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/light-level-rooms-d_708.html
They should probably have given you some credit for that.
CD

 

[justanengineer]

I understand the thought process, but comparing summer and snow on a sunny day is far from reality in a garage where the contrast is there in most cases. 3 4 bulb t8's would be completely inadequate in his space if it is used for any type of work at all.

Funny, I had the same thought about the shops shown as good examples in this thread.

 

[lakeroadster]

Thank you Captain Obvious.
Enjoy the stone age.

Yes, I see the charts you created on EngineeringToolbox.com here: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/light-level-rooms-d_708.html
They should probably have given you some credit for that.
CD

I added columns for lumens/sqft to both charts... and the conversions data. I found those helpful as was discussed on this thread, where the Engineering Toolbox link was also listed: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313840&highlight=lumens

Not looking for credit, nor your pissy attitude. Seems you've stomped on numerous folks here on this thread... Is your member name pronounced "Cyber ****"?

 

[Dhagan887]

Funny, I had the same thought about the shops shown as good examples in this thread.

I'm not an engineer, but I wouldn't even consider judging adequate light for me from a picture on my phone. That being said I see lots of contrast in all of them. None are like looking into the snow against the sun glare an all have well more light than you are suggesting even with the best t8 bulbs available.

 

[cybrdyke]

I added columns for lumens/sqft to both charts... and the conversions data. I found those helpful as was discussed on this thread, where the Engineering Toolbox link was also listed: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313840&highlight=lumens

Not looking for credit, nor your pissy attitude. Seems you've stomped on numerous folks here on this thread... Is your member name pronounced "Cyber ****"?

I do get a little pissy. I try to help folks understand lighting. On this forum, it's almost exhausting. One reason is that folks who think they understand lighting keep posting ridiculous charts even after it's been explained to them why their chart isn't good. And then they keep posting it in different threads.

The fact that you created a column, marked lumens/sq ft. and put it next to the column marked "ftcd" is evidence enough for me that you dont get it.

And in response to the link above, this was my response:
First, the IES doesn't use, even loosely, lumens/sq.ft in any of their illuminance charts. They use the metric LUX. So, right out of the gate, this chart is bogus.

I'll try to say it again....the amount of LUMENS that are coming out of your light fixtures can NOT be divided by your square footage of floor space to accurately give you FOOT CANDLES or LUX. If you figure this way, even as a rule of thumb, you are doing it wrong.
Lumens per square foot, or footcandles, is the amount of light density on the target surface. It doesn't matter where it came from. So, the amount of light on your garage floor can be measured in lumens per square foot. But you need a light meter to determine what the amount is....and your light meter will tell you in FOOT CANDLES or LUX.
I'll admit this is technical beyond the interest of most of the people that read this forum. But those of us that understand this are trying to help them do a good job lighting their garages.
This comment was followed by a few people who DO get it, confirming my info.

You know, I went back and read the entire thread, especially my posts. If what you call "stomping" is defined as trying to correct some info that people posted, then I'm guilty. But, I dont see any attitude or pissiness in any of my posts....
Nice ad hom attack, though.
CD

 

[bczygan]

Worked in the shop all day. It only has a small window, so not much added daylight.

What struck me all day, was how perfect the light level was for general tasks.

I can see where some additional task lighting might help, especially for fine work at machines like the mill and lathe.

Other than that, the light level is great.

Bill

 

[Dhagan887]

I'll try to say it again....the amount of LUMENS that are coming out of your light fixtures can NOT be divided by your square footage of floor space to accurately give you FOOT CANDLES or LUX. If you figure this way, even as a rule of thumb, you are doing it wrong.
beyond the interest of most of the people that read this forum. But those of us that understand this are trying to help them do a good job lighting their garages.[/COLOR]
This comment was followed by a few people who DO get it, confirming my info.


CD

I'll stay out of the argument because I'm not an engineer, and the results far from scientific....But calculating sq ft/ lumens to fc/lux, and resultswith an iPhone app I downloaded, the very brightest reading I could get on top of my table saw was just over 40% of what the 'calculator' said. So 4 one way, a dozen the other, no big difference, right?

 

[ValveCoverGasket]

I purchased two at $24 each in the store on March 5. I think there was an instant rebate ( sale) for $6 off.

This link shows two fixtures for $60 so $30 each.

http://www.costco.com/4’-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain,-2-pack.product.100223617.html

ah ok, i missed the two pack part. thanks!

 

[WanderingSol07]

I have a 22'x24' two car attached. 10' ceiling, two 7'x9' doors. Walls, doors, and ceiling are painted white. One long wall is cabinets with white melamine doors. I have 14 4' 2 bulb T5 lights, hanging down about 18" from ceiling. I have 4 lights across the front of the cars, 3 on each side, and 1 over my workbench. I want 2 more over the ends of the cars, but I am getting close to having enough light. I have a grey, free flow polypropylene floor, it reflects more light than the concrete floor did.

 

[Onewolf]

Seven 4 bulb T8 fixtures in a 28x34 garage with 10.5 ft ceiling. 6500K bulbs. White ceiling, off-white walls/floor. Plenty of light for measuring/cutting/assembling/working/etc.

 

[BruceMc]

I had six A19s and 3 LED floods hooked up to provide temporary lighting while wiring up the permanent lighting. It worked, mostly due to the adjustable f-stop built into our eyes. I was able to read, cut and assemble.

Now, since I wired the T8s in 2 banks, I can make an instant comparison between what I installed (48 T8 bulbs) and what half as many bulbs looks like. No guessing. More is better.

 

[Moose364]

I would go with the A19 Fat, it will have less shadows. No matter how many Lums you have if you get shadows it will drive you crazy.

 

[Kpaige]

Has anyone used a sun tunnel system in their garage? Have seen a lot in houses and they install lights into them for the night time and they are bright?