Line Fusing Amps?

[sberry]

Bill, I agree.

This thread makes me want to ask all the questions about how circuits are protected.

This is the only thing this should have evolved in to and I am the first to admit I don't know a thing about it other than someone has done most of the work for me.

Add a power strip with a lighter than 12 and we got to protect it with additional breaker especially since we are adding additional outlets, if it were a single outlet in theory you wouldn't need it.

This looks like a UL listed appliance. Motor load, transformer 4A, this is the actual,, this motor, another moto0r with higher demands such as an air comp, 3 times this or more is sensitive to some drop but this device, a heater burner wouldn't have been affected if Bull put a cord on half size, the factory cord was already 2x better than needed to run the machine.

 

[sberry]

This is why I don't have 20 fukkin master electricians that would love to take argument with me for free, we got about 20 or masters on this form and some would tell me I was full of **** at the first chance without hesitation.

 

[sberry]

That is an asset of this machine, a guy could run it a 100 ft on a 16 cord to an outbuilding. Bull is in a modern garage on voltage up 10% from when the machine was built. I owned a couple of these. The hint in all of this was the fan didn't coast, sewing machine oil is great.
Probably not an issue here but if they run a lot get dirty and need cleaning with a toothbrush. A lot of trouble shooting to electric and fuel is actually a combustion air issue, old stuff rusts and dusts.

 

[sberry]

As old as it is the thing is likely well made, even dealer sold. Bill,,, I don't even know how many ways you can do it. The wall wart is an invention of this. I see new TV has external power supply, you got to have it somewhere and it saved some wire.

Think about the protection of the modern wire feed and the AC stickmate. Both use the same cord from the factory. Within those 2 machines have several theories at work for protecting the machine and circuit.

A light fixture has a 16 cord to support a 2A load, they aint worried about voltage drop.

But an appliance of this nature a grounded UL or nema or who ever is the mastermind etc lists if for a 16 cord regardless of what the actual demands are as the unit doesn't have secondary means built in beyond that point,,, or up to a thermally protected motor.

With air comps and heavy chop saws can see 20A trips with a 14 cord on breakers, their run is 13A or more, it would be interesting to see all the curves during cycles with a thermometer but as a user and even an installer is above my pay grade and at the end of the day don't mean a pinch of ****.

 

[Bull]

Well, the cord I initially installed was thinner and longer than the cord from the factory....

I had thought it would be okay because it said it was rated to 13 amps, and the rating for the motor was 4 amps.

Electrical stuff often gets pretty contentious on here, it seems.

 

[sberry]

The breaker isn't to protect the cord from thermal but the cord is to open the breaker in the event of a fault.

Bull, as you found out that wasn't the problem. The cord may have been thinner but it still wasn't going to fix the problem, a cord with a 13A rating is fine, you are hooking it to a 12 circuit and pulling a run of five, you assumed correctly in theory.

In the real world would have been job site connected with a 16 cord saving the heavy duty ones for saws. 1000's and 1000's and 10000 of them used on 50 ft cord every day, most of them.

Take 2 bench grinders, one 1/3 horse and another 1/2, both got the same input cord. Sall electric drill, larger one, Milwaukee uses the same cord. A guy chops it with an axe, shorts to itself as in a grounded tool (fault) it needs to pass enough current to open the ungrounded conductor.

 

[sberry]

The run load is never enough on your heater to overheat the incoming wire. That is essentially its protection against thermal. You need a feed wire to this appliance that isn't simply blown open. If the wire in the appliance is smaller and not up to a fault then we must additional fusing after the cord on the machine. (thermal motor overload) etc.

The 200A mig actually has a cord one better than it needs to serve its load at rated output but is designed this way to allow it to be plugged in to common 50A welder circuits. If one looks in the instructions at first glance it suggests 35A breaker which is plenty fine, we use a 30, real load a pinch over 20 wide open with a legal max of near 24 I believe????

anyway it has thermal after the cord to protect the incoming and its own guts all rated for 35 or so maybe? What ever the limit is on 14??? etc, this is just generalization. An AC 225 has no thermal and an incoming 12 cord. Its got a slightly different scheme with all the internals able to handle a short of 50A thru a 12.

 

[sberry]

We got some other guys here beside me should be doin the splainin.

But contrary to some popular belief most everything you plug in has a run of 13 or less to a 20A wire and circuit. Yall panic about voltage drop for and calculated on 20 AMPS instead of for 13, even a chop saw comes with a 15 plug connected to a 15 recept . You can overload it but a factory cord heater is less than 15. Go back and calculate 13 or 14A on a 12 and it looks different, the hedge trimmer etc.

I have seen full 20A draws and its usually in excess of 150 ft before it becomes an issue and not on all tools, a 4 1/2 grinder not. A circ saw like contractor uses building a house can run from long cords, don't start it under cut load and runs short times. Isnt really pulling 20A under load but 70% of that, lose a couple volts no big deal.

 

[sberry]

If I ask 2 of my neighbors, both career licensed masters, another that could be a master and one of my best friends that is a light year beyond any of us how much difference this all makes, a nick and a pre twist they say, not much. How much a little v drop hurt this, not much is the answer, not one of them pull out an app or calculator to tell my dumb azz not much.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Notwithstanding the fact that the advice to use a more appropriate power cord WAS well-founded at the time, we left the idea of the cord being the OP's primary operational problem a long time ago. Meanwhile, you have been REPEATEDLY asked to back up your assertion that there is some legal prohibition on running a (relatively) lightly-wired plug-in device from a circuit capable of prodigious current output. THAT is what you were asked to "Show Me". But you have consistently refused to do so, preferring instead to simply repeat the unsupported assertion, hurl baseless insults, and engage in straw-man arguments and other logical fallacies.

Yes it does. ...

Every once in a while we see a scheme ...

As for my comprehension,, yes I get it quite clearly,, ...

You got to love it,,, ...

Bill, I agree. ...

This is why I don't have 20 fukkin master electricians ...

That is an asset of this machine, ...

As old as it is the thing is likely well made, ...

The breaker isn't to protect the cord from thermal ...

The run load is never enough on your heater ...

We got some other guys here beside me should be doin the splainin. ...

If I ask 2 of my neighbors, both career licensed masters, ...

Wow. Just WOW.

Twelve more "stream of consciousness" posts over a ~four-hour period, rambling all over the place with off-point analogies, and you STILL haven't come close to providing that "one credible, verifiable reference which states that the captive wiring on a plug-in device imposes any sort of legal limit on the current capacity of the host circuit."

Is it REALLY that difficult for you to say, "Mea Culpa"?

 

[sberry]

verifiable reference which states that the captive wiring on a plug-in device imposes any sort of legal limit on the current capacity of the host circuit."

This is the problem with copy and paste. No one said it imposes a legal limit on the host circuit , quite the opposite. I aint talking to you anyway, you are a know it all . We cant help you.

 

[2ManyProjects]

This is the problem with copy and paste. No one said it imposes a legal limit on the host circuit

Ummm... Yes, "someone" did:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3614992&postcount=15

...may have been an 18 but that is not legal to plug in to a circuit with a 20A breaker on it.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3615489&postcount=20

...the wire is too small to be plugged in to large circuits.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3615504&postcount=21

It is perfectly legal to plug a smaller gauge wire in an appliance/tool cord/etc. onto a larger circuit.

Yes,, but there is a legal limit to it is my point,

So much for revisionist history.

I aint talking to you anyway,

Are you perhaps six years old or something?

 

[sberry]

I look here every morning to see if it can get any dumber, evidently it cahn. When a guy asks about putting a replacement cord on a small appliance and gets an answer that he needs a 10 whip on it because somehow it will help if he runs it 400 ft I should have known what I was dealing with, basically the janitor which is what I suspect here.

Maybe I ran across something here on this forum he has actually built or wired but I don't think so. Only thing I can recall is a couple other threads where some real in depth knowledge was shared about multi wire branch circuits that was interesting.