Here is a list of GFCI requirements over the years.
http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/nec/pdf/GFCI_requirement_page2.pdf[/
http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/nec/pdf/GFCI_requirement_page2.pdf[/
Line in Load out?
- Thread starter Teken
- Start date
Surge protection.
Isn't it funny how things are "safe" on one part of the grid, and not in another, with the same wires?
I know . . .
Here is the real kicker, the two outlets mounted on the fire wall in the garage has a water facet directly below it! 
Now I'm not retarded enough to leave a cord or anything plugged in all the while I am using the garden hose etc.
But, it's going to be that one time where it might be my girls who might want to grab a cup of water from the sink etc and there still might be something plugged into the blasted thing and someone could get hurt!
That's why I installed two walls full of outlets, so that this one particular outlet NEVER has to be used . . .
Just remember - GFCI does not equal completely idiot proof concerning water and electricity. Last summer I had a big fan on outside plugged into an extension cord. It was plugged into a GFCI outlet and then the cord had it's own GFCI.
I didn't notice when the connection between the fan and cord fell into a puddle, which I walked through. I remember ending up on my ***, but I don't remember getting shocked.
NEITHER GFCI BLEW! (and they were both good quality, in working order)
I didn't notice when the connection between the fan and cord fell into a puddle, which I walked through. I remember ending up on my ***, but I don't remember getting shocked.
NEITHER GFCI BLEW! (and they were both good quality, in working order)Just remember - GFCI does not equal completely idiot proof concerning water and electricity. Last summer I had a big fan on outside plugged into an extension cord. It was plugged into a GFCI outlet and then the cord had it's own GFCI.
I didn't notice when the connection between the fan and cord fell into a puddle, which I walked through. I remember ending up on my ***, but I don't remember getting shocked.
Noted, I am sure you and the rest of the electricians can relate. That you must have the utmost respect for electricity at all times.
I have seen allot of accidents in my day, and some I will never forget because the smell and the screams of those poor guys who got jolted haunt me to this very day.
I try to do things like it's going to be my girls who aren't aware of things all the time, and going the extra step for protection just sits better with me, and gives me the peace of mind . . .
comedyman809
Well-known member
at first, i thought he was referring to any switch or panel meaning line voltage and line out.
all switches and disconnects have a line in and line out, this is what i thought he may have been talking about, but i do know the gfci has a line and load.
comedyman809
Well-known member
so here you go, put a gfci on your fridge, and just hope that you dont have spoiled food someday because the gfci tripped.
the outlet is not a hazard for shock. so best bet to leave it alone with a dedicated breaker and thats it.
the outlet is not a hazard for shock. so best bet to leave it alone with a dedicated breaker and thats it.
Last edited:
I think the chance of a GFCI tripping randomly on your fridge is about as likely as the GFCI tripping for the reason it was intended. If you have a fridge that is a GFCI tripper, you'll know pretty quick, it's not like it just happens one day for no reason. You'd have to be away from your house during this event to not notice and let your food spoil.
Again, this is only an issue if you have an old fridge. The fridge in my kitchen is only a year old, and it's not going to trip the GFCI outlet unless something is very wrong. I'm not saying everybody needs to go put a GFCI on their fridge, but I'm betting it will be required in the future, and I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it really is.
Again, this is only an issue if you have an old fridge. The fridge in my kitchen is only a year old, and it's not going to trip the GFCI outlet unless something is very wrong. I'm not saying everybody needs to go put a GFCI on their fridge, but I'm betting it will be required in the future, and I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it really is.
Aceman
Well-known member
I agree. I think most people are in their fridge several times a day, you'd think it'd be pretty obvious that the GFCI tripped when the fridge light didn't come on.
comedyman809
Well-known member
this man who is teaching the electric course is also the head electrical engineer at a notable hospital- good sam in west islip ny.
i im sure he would not want to give his students wrong info on gfci.
he stated NOT to use gfci on a household fridge.
when i used the argument you guys are giving me, he said the proper installation is to not use gfci.
and to use a gfci is incorrect.
this man is reputable and i will not question him. i told him...but some people say to use a gfci, and firmly told me they are wrong.
so unless you want to buy a brand new refridgerator every few years, dont use gfci.
im done here.
i im sure he would not want to give his students wrong info on gfci.
he stated NOT to use gfci on a household fridge.
when i used the argument you guys are giving me, he said the proper installation is to not use gfci.
and to use a gfci is incorrect.
this man is reputable and i will not question him. i told him...but some people say to use a gfci, and firmly told me they are wrong.
so unless you want to buy a brand new refridgerator every few years, dont use gfci.
im done here.
Mickey O
Well-known member
It's happens more than you think with fridges/freezers and sump pumps, and if it happens while you're away it can be very costly. I lost an entire freezer full of expensive food and you don't have to be away for a long time. If you don't use the appliance everyday you won't know until you do. Same thing with a sump pump, a bad storm while you're at work and you could come home to a flooded basement. Personally I won't use a GFCI on anything that's operation is crucial, if I have to put one in to meet code or please an inspector I'll do it but change it out as the inspector leaves.
comedyman809
Well-known member
gfci's are for plugging in hand operated appliances. hair dryers, blenders, power tools, etc....in a wet location.
This is just one man's opinion. It is not code and it is not fact!
If you think one man can be an expert on every aspect of electricity or that you're going to become an all knowing expert by listening to him, you've got a lot to learn!If I was teaching a course about electricity I would tell everybody it's not code required but it's just fine if you want to use a GFCI there. And the students won't argue because they think I'm "the expert" just like in your case.
This has nothing to do with it. Once all the old fridges are dead and gone, nobody will ever have this issue anymore. Fridges made 20 years ago are built a lot different than the ones being made today and even 10 years ago. I'd bet a LOT of money that the household refrigerator GFCI exception in the code book will be removed in coming years.
I don't know if they're still doing it, but that's why the gov't was offering I think $30 for any old fridge and they'll dispose of it - just like the "cash for clunkers" thing. Old fridges are garbage compared to new ones.
And again, if this was a commercial kitchen, then a GFCI would be REQUIRED on the fridge. Why do you think that is?
GFCIs are not designed for any specific type of appliance. They're designed for wet locations, and ANYTHING that might be plugged in in that wet location. Whether it is "hand operated" or not is entirely irrelevant.
Torque1st
MEMBER EMERITUS
One way to reduce problems if a GFCI trips is to wire a light you use every day to the load side of the GFCI circuit. That way if the light won't work you will know to check. Most freezers and refrigerators will hold temp long enough to avoid spoilage.
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
I'm not an expert on residential electrical requirements, but I believe this whole thing depends on what version of the NEC is in effect in your area:
http://ezinearticles.com/?GFCI-Locations-in-Residential-Buildings-Based-on-2008-NEC&id=3675260
According to the latest 2008 NEC (National Electrical Code), ALL of the 125 volt, single phase, 15 & 20 amp receptacles in residential building basements, garages and accessory buildings are required to be GFCI protected. That means dedicated outlets serving: sump pumps, freezers / other permanently located equipment (which is not easily movable), laundry appliances, garage ceiling outlets used for the garage door opener, and anything else previously excluded from this requirement is now included and has to be GFCI protected.
2008 NEC kept an exception allowing fire alarm and / or burglar alarm systems to remain on NON-GFCI protected circuits.
GFCI protection is required for receptacles installed in any of the following areas of a dwelling unit:
Bathrooms
Garages and accessory buildings
All exterior receptacles except for deicing equipment
Crawl spaces - at or below grade level
Unfinished basements
Kitchens
Laundry, Utility, Wet Bar Sinks Areas
Boathouses - if you have a receptacle there, it must be GFCI protected
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=99745
From the 08 NECHB
210.8(A)(2) & (A)(5): Expanded GFCI protection requirements by deleting exceptions for receptacles that are not readily accessible and receptacles located in dedicated spaces to supply an appliance.
• 210.8(B)(4): Expanded GFCI protection requirements to include all outdoor 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles, and added a conditional exception to permit use of assured equipment grounding conductor program in industrial establishments.
• 210.8(B)(5): Added GFCI protection requirements for all 15- and 20-ampere 125-volt receptacles installed within 6 ft of the outside edge of sinks, and added exceptions for receptacles in industrial laboratories where the loss of power would introduce a greater hazard and for receptacles in patient care areas where critical care equipment may be utilized.
http://ezinearticles.com/?GFCI-Locations-in-Residential-Buildings-Based-on-2008-NEC&id=3675260
According to the latest 2008 NEC (National Electrical Code), ALL of the 125 volt, single phase, 15 & 20 amp receptacles in residential building basements, garages and accessory buildings are required to be GFCI protected. That means dedicated outlets serving: sump pumps, freezers / other permanently located equipment (which is not easily movable), laundry appliances, garage ceiling outlets used for the garage door opener, and anything else previously excluded from this requirement is now included and has to be GFCI protected.
2008 NEC kept an exception allowing fire alarm and / or burglar alarm systems to remain on NON-GFCI protected circuits.
GFCI protection is required for receptacles installed in any of the following areas of a dwelling unit:
Bathrooms
Garages and accessory buildings
All exterior receptacles except for deicing equipment
Crawl spaces - at or below grade level
Unfinished basements
Kitchens
Laundry, Utility, Wet Bar Sinks Areas
Boathouses - if you have a receptacle there, it must be GFCI protected
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=99745
From the 08 NECHB
210.8(A)(2) & (A)(5): Expanded GFCI protection requirements by deleting exceptions for receptacles that are not readily accessible and receptacles located in dedicated spaces to supply an appliance.
• 210.8(B)(4): Expanded GFCI protection requirements to include all outdoor 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles, and added a conditional exception to permit use of assured equipment grounding conductor program in industrial establishments.
• 210.8(B)(5): Added GFCI protection requirements for all 15- and 20-ampere 125-volt receptacles installed within 6 ft of the outside edge of sinks, and added exceptions for receptacles in industrial laboratories where the loss of power would introduce a greater hazard and for receptacles in patient care areas where critical care equipment may be utilized.
This is a good idea - in my small garage at home I've got one 20A GFCI feeding everything but the lights. The fridge out there is a 1993 model, and it has never blown the GFCI. I also leave a small light bulb on 24/7 out there, so if it goes out, I know the fridge is off. The only reason it tends to trip is because it also feeds an outdoor outlet that likes to get blasted with the hose...
I understand the reasoning for not putting GFCI's on "mission critical" equipment...but where do you draw the line? Couldn't you say the same thing about circuit breakers? Or if you're that worried...maybe you should buy an uninteruptable power supply for your fridge?
And for sump pumps - this is why they sell both battery backup and "water powered" models.
Torque1st
MEMBER EMERITUS
I have been told that the Navy locks all the circuit breakers down during battle. They would rather have a circuit fry completely than to lose power.
I personally draw the line where a nuisance trip can cause a lot of monetary loss. Monitoring the circuit like with your 24/7 light bulb or a light switch used daily works most of the time.
I personally draw the line where a nuisance trip can cause a lot of monetary loss. Monitoring the circuit like with your 24/7 light bulb or a light switch used daily works most of the time.
VHF
Well-known member
Wisconsin adopted the 2008 NEC with one exception for GFCI: a dedicated non-GFCI receptical may be provided for a sump pump as long as a GFCI-protected receptical is available within 3 feet. (Presumably so one won't be tempted to plug power tools, etc. into the non-GFCI sump pump receptical.)