Lithium-ion VS NiCad

[redmed]

Seems that everyone here is jumping on the Lithium-Ion wagon. If you need "MORE POWER" and use your tool everyday I can see it. But these Lithium-ion packs only last 2-3 years. If you can afford to get a new drill every couple years fine. Many can find better use of their resources by getting a NiCad drill or tool. Less upfront expense. Twice the useful life of the battery. Cheap to solder new NiCad cells in a battery pack and go again for another five years. It is dangerous to solder Lithium-Ion cells so you have to get a new battery pack or as most know it is about the same cost to get a whole new drill. Tell me where I'm wrong as I'm about to get some new Sub C cells ($6-$12) and rebuild my NiCad pack. Unless there is a reasonable Lithium-Ion strategy.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5939109_lithium-batteries-vs_-nicad-batteries.html
"Nickel-cadmium batteries can be stored or used for up to 5 years. Lithium-ion batteries can last for anywhere between 2 and 3 years."

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery2.htm
"Lithium-ion batteries age. They only last two to three years, even if they are sitting on a shelf unused. So do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years. It won't. Also, if you are buying a new battery pack, you want to make sure it really is new. If it has been sitting on a shelf in the store for a year, it won't last very long. Manufacturing dates are important"

 

[brass89]

So far my li-ion batteries are holding up after a couple years. I didn't get more than a couple years out of my older nicads with a cordless 12v drill (makita). Using it in a work environment on a daily basis, the performance slowly went down, down, down..holding less and less of a charge. Sure didn't last 5yrs, and that was with making sure to expend the batteries fully before recharging to avoid the 'memory' effect.

Li-ions are supposed to be a cure to the memory effect and my new(er) 18v li-ions recharge in 15min vs 30-45min so that's another bonus. Maybe it's a case of YMMV? I'm seeing much better results from li-ion personally. Plus it's nice to pick up a tool if it hasn't been used in a few days and not have to put it on the charger. With ni-cad it was almost sure to be dead or close to it.

 

[Super Sport]

I've never heard the claim that lithium-ion only lasts 2-3 years. I've actually heard quite the opposite, that under the right temperatures they can last for many years.

I've had my Craftsman Professional lithium batteries for about 8 years now with no problems. From everybody I've talked with, they're lucky to get that length of life out of their Ni-Cd batteries.

 

[stikman56]

Seems that everyone here is jumping on the Lithium-Ion wagon. If you need "MORE POWER" and use your tool everyday I can see it. But these Lithium-ion packs only last 2-3 years. If you can afford to get a new drill every couple years fine. Many can find better use of their resources by getting a NiCad drill or tool. Less upfront expense. Twice the useful life of the battery. Cheap to solder new NiCad cells in a battery pack and go again for another five years. It is dangerous to solder Lithium-Ion cells so you have to get a new battery pack or as most know it is about the same cost to get a whole new drill. Tell me where I'm wrong as I'm about to get some new Sub C cells ($6-$12) and rebuild my NiCad pack. Unless there is a reasonable Lithium-Ion strategy.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5939109_lithium-batteries-vs_-nicad-batteries.html
"Nickel-cadmium batteries can be stored or used for up to 5 years. Lithium-ion batteries can last for anywhere between 2 and 3 years."

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery2.htm
"Lithium-ion batteries age. They only last two to three years, even if they are sitting on a shelf unused. So do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years. It won't. Also, if you are buying a new battery pack, you want to make sure it really is new. If it has been sitting on a shelf in the store for a year, it won't last very long. Manufacturing dates are important"

3-4 years from their build date is what I've always read and also found on li-ion's. Personally they aren't for me, I hate them. They have electronics in them that can, and do go bad sometimes as well. They have to because they cannot be fully dischaarged,otherwise they will never charge again. Ni-cad for me all the way, rebuildable too, and cheaper to begin with. Every Li-ion tool I've ever used has a lag from the time you pull the trigger until the motor starts, I just don't like that at all when I'm using cordless tools. To each their own, I guess.

 

[GSteg]

That's quite an outdated article. I have many many lithium-ion batteries that are at least 6-7 years old and the runtime is probably 70% of what it was new. Don't leave them at full charge for long-term storage, and don't leave them in high-temperature environment. You can solder lithium cells too, but you have to be careful with heat. I've rebuilt many lithium packs and the price for lithium cells have come down in recent years. You can get a single 2.6AH Samsung cell for $7, and you only need 5 cells to achieve a nominal 18v. A lot of the time, it's the electronics in the battery that's bad. The cells themselves are pretty reliable.

 

[BirdMobile]

My 18V Bosch NiCad battery packs are still going strong after 7 years of constant use. I've noticed that I'm getting nowhere near the amount of run time from them that I used to, but it's still over half of what they delivered when new.

 

[FMC1959]

Not sure where you are getting 2-3 years from. I can see a contractor that charges his batteries multiple times a day 5 days a week going 2-3 years, otherwise it is not normal.

I responded to another of your threads that I have 9 of the Makita 18v LXT batteries ranging in the 4- 6 1/2 year range, 1 of the nine died around the 4 1/2 year mark, the rest are doing fine.

I also have 11 M12 batteries that are 3-5 years old, all working without issue.

I see you have a variety of threads going on about batteries and it looks like you are going with Ridgid. Whatever you get, grab a Sharpie and put a date on the battery of when you got it. Down the road if you have multiple batteries, it will help if ever you have an issue to see if it is still under warranty.

Cordless tools and battery technology is still evolving at a pretty good pace. There is lots of conflicting info on them (a lot of ******* matches also), use good common sense and you will not have any issues with your Li-ion batteries.

Forget NiCad's, old technology you should not bother with, unless you drive on bias ply tires.

 

[BirdMobile]

Correction. I just researched, and found that my Bosch 18V batteries are Ni-MH, not NiCad.
Good stuff, whatever they are.

 

[GSteg]

Are you sure that's what your OEM battery uses? A lot of the rebuilt ones are using NiMH cells, but majority of the OEM batteries are Nicad.

 

[GSteg]

Every Li-ion tool I've ever used has a lag from the time you pull the trigger until the motor starts, I just don't like that at all when I'm using cordless tools. To each their own, I guess.

If there is a lag, I haven't noticed it (except for the crappy CT7850 gun). When I use to have a CT6850, I ran it on nicad batteries for years. Eventually they gave out so I bought the lithium batteries for it. Couldn't tell a difference in lag if there was one.

 

[BirdMobile]

Are you sure that's what your OEM battery uses? A lot of the rebuilt ones are using NiMH cells, but majority of the OEM batteries are Nicad.

Yep. Both batteries I have are OEM, and NiMh. Both still working fine.
My charger only works on one bay, though... the batteries outlived half the charger!

 

[ddawg16]

I used to do NiCad testing.

The typical NiCad is good for between 300 and 1000 cycles. With normal use they can last up to about 10 years. Basically, they start to age the moment they are made.

NiCad's do not like cold weather.

NiCad's will self discharge about 10% per month if not used.

NiCad's do not like to be left charged or unused. They start to develop an oxide on the plates that reduces capacity. Some people call it a 'memory'....but it's not a memory.

The best way to use a NiCad is fully charge it and then run it all the way down. Then recharge.

The typical contractor who recharges his battery 1-2 times a day is going to wear out a NiCad pack in 1-3 years.

No not buy NiCads off Ebay. You have no way of knowing how hold they are. Because they are on Fleebay, they could be 2-3 years old and not cycled properly, hence, you are already starting off with a less the perfect battery.

A NiCad is fully charged at around 1.4v...discharged when it reaches around 1.0v The discharge curve is flatter than an Alkaline battery. At rest and fully charged, they tend to hover around 1.2-1.3 volts.

If Li batteries have a 2-3 year life span, then I'm wondering how all those electric cars are still going after 5+ years.

 

[dutchgray]

My original pair of Makita L-ion batteries are 5 years old now and are still pretty good and its looking like they will outlast the drill (BHP541) which is pretty tired now, I use it every day and probably charge each battery 3 times a week on average.
One thing I do is not leave them in the van at night when its cold or during the day when its really hot.

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

Nicads are cheaper than Lithium batteries and have a longer history, but not a great one. You trade off price for performance. Buy what works for you.

Writing the date on the battery is an excellent idea. I will have to try that myself.

What I **REALLY** hate is all the tool makers change their battery case design every two years or so meaning all your power tools no longer are compatible with the designs, and then they discontinue the spare batteries you were buying from them. That leaves you with no choice but to buy all new stuff again. Planned obsolescence. I would be happier if they standardized the design interface and worked on the tools instead of the batteries. Nice universal battery case and interface for their brand or across the industry.

Won't happen, but I can dream.

 

[EdT]

Lithium batteries hold their charge better than NiCads so if you're an occasional user, that's a plus. The biggest operational difference I notice is that they're much lighter and the tools are, therefore, easier to handle. My son has a Makita LI drill that he's had for about ten years now and it is still on the original battery packs and gets used a lot. I'd say the battery run time is down from new, but still acceptable.
Regardless of chemistry, the replacement battery business is a racket. As I'm sure everyone has noticed, when you go to get a battery it's close to the cost of a whole new tool with the tool, the battery and the charger, so the pricing on the batteries is a bit aggressive to say the least. I also recently read that the manufacturing costs of Li cells has dropped to about 10% of what it was 10 years ago. Of course that doesn't show up in the replacement battery department so there's some big margins in batteries. I have beet tempted to buy one of the <$20 18v drills at HF just to see how bad (good) it is. I think the replacement batteries for those is about $12. Can't be 8 times worse than a DeWalt. I have a raft of DeWalt 18V tools rotting away because all the batteries died and I just can't bring myself to spring for new ones. I did get a RIGID drill/impact driver set up largely because of the alleged lifetime warranty on all of it including the batteries. We'll see how that works when the time comes.

 

[Ign]

Hmm, li-ion is the greatest advancement in cordless tools in a long time. 2-3 years just ain't true. And the lack of the memory effect is great IMO. No way I'd return to nicad any sooner than I'd drop a carb in place of EFI or return to a flip phone from a smartphone.

I like technology when it works and makes sense for me, li-ion fits the bill. If the OP insists on nicad that's his choice, good luck.

 

[ddawg16]

Hmm, li-ion is the greatest advancement in cordless tools in a long time. 2-3 years just ain't true. And the lack of the memory effect is great IMO. No way I'd return to nicad any sooner than I'd drop a carb in place of EFI or return to a flip phone from a smartphone.

I like technology when it works and makes sense for me, li-ion fits the bill. If the OP insists on nicad that's his choice, good luck.

Doesn't it sort of remind you of the incandescent vs CFL debate?

 

[Dust Devil]

Anyone that has been using cordless tools for the last 20 years or so knows the answer to the battery question

For the newbs

NiCad < NiMh <LiIon

Not a single argument in favor of going backwards IMO.

 

[GSteg]

Doesn't it sort of remind you of the incandescent vs CFL debate?

But we have LEDs now!

 

[djb2]

Anyone that has been using cordless tools for the last 20 years or so knows the answer to the battery question

For the newbs

NiCad < NiMh < LiIon

Not a single argument in favor of going backwards IMO.

NiCad vs NiMH isn't clear-cut. NiCad cells typically have lower power density but higher discharge density (can supply more Amps without damage). They can also withstand long term trickle charging better, allowing cheap chargers.

Some LiIon advantages are solely because the cell chemistry is fragile. The cells are destroyed if fully discharged and are fire hazards if over-charged, so the charge and discharge circuitry must be at least a little careful. And once they are a little smart, it's trivial to make them quite good. Ni* batteries would last far longer with the same level of care.

But the power density of lithium chemistries makes them the easy winner in any balanced comparison.

 

[Farmall450]

I've never heard the claim that lithium-ion only lasts 2-3 years. I've actually heard quite the opposite, that under the right temperatures they can last for many years.

I've had my Craftsman Professional lithium batteries for about 8 years now with no problems. From everybody I've talked with, they're lucky to get that length of life out of their Ni-Cd batteries.

Completely agree...my uncle has some Makita's that stay in his truck (-25 to 100+ degrees) when he's not using them and they're getting up there in age.

 

[GSteg]

NiCad < NiMh <LiIon

Not a single argument in favor of going backwards IMO.

I would take NiMH last. NiMH self-discharges faster than Nicad. Leave it on the shelf for a month and you can experience up to 30% discharge. Nicad is a bit better in this regard (Sanyo is very good at this, i.e. Snap on Nicads). You can buy NiMH cells with low self-discharge rate, but most of them trade off too much capacity and C-rating, making it useless for demanding tools.

I still use Nicad, but only for tools that I know I will be using everyday. For everything else, lithium wins.

 

[Trey T]

OP: I'm sorry but you're post is very irresponsible. JUST COMPLETELY NON-SENSE!!!!

 

[tarbellb]

Power to weight ratio is a huge benefit to Lith-ion.

 

[r22yu]

I would take NiMH last. NiMH self-discharges faster than Nicad. Leave it on the shelf for a month and you can experience up to 30% discharge. Nicad is a bit better in this regard (Sanyo is very good at this, i.e. Snap on Nicads). You can buy NiMH cells with low self-discharge rate, but most of them trade off too much capacity and C-rating, making it useless for demanding tools.

I still use Nicad, but only for tools that I know I will be using everyday. For everything else, lithium wins.

Really? But Eneloop are NiMH are everyone goes gaga over them for the rechargeable AA/AAA batteries. One of the big selling points is that they do NOT self discharge too much.

 

[Sal Bandini]

Really? But Eneloop are NiMH are everyone goes gaga over them for the rechargeable AA/AAA batteries. One of the big selling points is that they do NOT self discharge too much.

For what they ae using them for I would agree they are better. You don't need high discharge typically in the AA/AAA devices they are using.

I like using Eneloops because when I go to use the device I don't have to worry that the cells are depleted from lack of use.

 

[GSteg]

Really? But Eneloop are NiMH are everyone goes gaga over them for the rechargeable AA/AAA batteries. One of the big selling points is that they do NOT self discharge too much.

Yes, Eneloops are the low self-discharge cells I was talking about. They're good for long term storage, but their low capacity and low(er) C-rating makes them horrible for high-amp tools. They don't come in sub-C size either. The NiMH sub-C that people rebuild batteries with are much larger in capacity with better C-rating, but they suffer more from self-discharge than Nicad.

 

[truckdriver]

While some of the early Li-ion batteries had their short comings(cold weather performance being the big one) they have come a long way since then. While it is true that a Li-ion starts aging and losing capacity potential from the moment it's produced, it is still better than NiCad in every regard except being able to rebuilt by the user. It's lighter and produces full power throughout the charge. Li-ion is now up to 6 ah. Can you imagine how heavy a 6ah NiCad would be? As far 2-3 year life goes I still have a Makita LXT that is 7 years old that works and my Bosch 10.8v is almost 8 years old and still good. My Milwaukee M12 is 4 years old and still perfect. My NiCad Dewalt batteries only lasted about 4 years before they lost about half the capacity.

 

[CTyankee]

OP: I'm sorry but you're post is very irresponsible. JUST COMPLETELY NON-SENSE!!!!

But I read it on the internet....it must be true..

 

[spoon671]

What is NiCad?

 

[Skin]

In my limited experience NiCad batteries had a worse useable lifespan and tended to last only about a year or two before they began to discharge at noticeably increased rates. I've had much better luck with my lithium ion tools. They also seem to hold their idle charge better unless they're defective.

 

[CJM8515]

I have had plenty of cordless tools over the years. I have a porter cable 9.6V that honestly I beat the snot out of. The batteries are shot and Im not replacing them, my dad has the original makita 9.6V with the tubular batteries. That sucker is 20 years old and he finally had to buy batteries after about 10-12 years and we abused it to no end.

I also have a porter cable lith ion drill/impact driver with 1.5ah batts. The batteries dont last that long and never did, but they have yet to give up and that set is about 6-8 years old by now. I recently bought the milwaukee drill/driver setup with the 3.0ah batts and that sucker is seriously the best yet. A buddy of minehas the lesser powered white makita drill/driver set with 2.0ah batts, he has worn out a few batts but he is a contractor and uses them daily for years now.

 

[Trey T]

When it comes to batteries cells, regardless of chemistry, these are the only COO you should get it from:

Made in Korea
Made in Japan

If the battery cells made from somewhere else, FORGET IT!!!!

I followed Milwaukee M18 for a very long time and they had their issues with Emoli (made in Canada) cells but I believe all of their cells are Samsung now. M18 batteries technologies were always ahead of all competitors that's why I always loved Milwaukee, not because of their tools.

 

[redmed]

OK Guys you convinced me to make the Lithium-Ion plunge. Some tell me some of their 5-8 year old Lithium's are still good. Then I remember my 7 year old laptop battery is 7 years old and still working. So I left the NiCad era and took the plunge and got the Milwaukee M12 drill/driver kit with a extra 3A battery. I want the M12 Fuel but can't bring myself to fork out that much. Since they use the same batteries I will wait a year or two and get a reconditioned M12 Fuel. Then for approximately the same price of a Fuel today I will have three tools and at least four batteries.

 

[uart]

OK Guys you convinced me to make the Lithium-Ion plunge. Some tell me some of their 5-8 year old Lithium's are still good.

Yes, depending on the usage 5 to 10 years is a lot more realistic than the 2 to 3 years you suggested in your opening post. Just try not to expose your packs to the combination of full charge AND high temperatures, at least whenever possible. There's no need to store packs fully charged when you're not using them.

If you find you have more packs than you need and want to leave some in a more long term storage, then it's also ok to store unused packs in the fridge (not freezer) until needed. Stored at about 50% charge they deteriorate extremely slowly in this state. Just make sure you leave them out for an hour or so to reach somewhere near room temperature before charging and using when you do "rotate" them.

Don't leave them more than about a year before rotating the "use" packs with "store" packs, just in case they lose too much charge. Don't worry too much about it though, I've stored LiIon batteries like this for a year and the loss of charge was only tiny.

 

[FMC1959]

Personally, I prefer to rotate batteries rather than consider storing them. Lion can easily go 6 months or more, so even if you go periods where you go 30+ days not touching the tools, you should be able to develop a good rotation scheme.

As time goes on, you might pickup a radio, flashlight and a host of other tools where using the batteries will be more common.

 

[honcho]

This thread just illustrates the tremendous confusion about battery chemistries.

For many (most) modern cordless tool uses, Li-Ion provides advantages that are--and I hedge here--probably worth using them and since just about every modern cordless tool manufacturer is making lithium powered tools, they seem to think so too.

1. High power density
2. Lighter weight
3. Lower self-discharge (than NiCad and NiMh)

The wikipedia entry for lithium batteries lists about 25 different chemistries, though only 2 or 3 are commonly employed in consumer rechargeable batteries.

If you want straight information about rechargeable batteries, their care and feeding, I suggest the site http://batteryuniversity.com/ supported by CADEX, a manufacturer of recharging systems. Battery University provides about the most factual information that can be found in one place on the web.

 

[stikman56]

This thread just illustrates the tremendous confusion about battery chemistries.

For many (most) modern cordless tool uses, Li-Ion provides advantages that are--and I hedge here--probably worth using them and since just about every modern cordless tool manufacturer is making lithium powered tools, they seem to think so too.

1. High power density
2. Lighter weight
3. Lower self-discharge (than NiCad and NiMh)

The wikipedia entry for lithium batteries lists about 25 different chemistries, though only 2 or 3 are commonly employed in consumer rechargeable batteries.

If you want straight information about rechargeable batteries, their care and feeding, I suggest the site http://batteryuniversity.com/ supported by CADEX, a manufacturer of recharging systems. Battery University provides about the most factual information that can be found in one place on the web.

Li-ion's still **** in my book. They do have their place, but not in my tools. N-cad's worked great for many years and they still do. I can rebuild them too,they also cost less. They have no electronics in them to fail. I have one right now in an impact wrench that has failed. I bought it because it was cheap and powerful for home use. Those batteries flat out piss me off, I have to be honest. I use ni-cad's daily. I have also had them that lasted 13 years.
At this point I don't care what li-ion's are capable of, I'll never have another in my personal tools.

 

[Skin]

OK Guys you convinced me to make the Lithium-Ion plunge. Some tell me some of their 5-8 year old Lithium's are still good. Then I remember my 7 year old laptop battery is 7 years old and still working. So I left the NiCad era and took the plunge and got the Milwaukee M12 drill/driver kit with a extra 3A battery. I want the M12 Fuel but can't bring myself to fork out that much. Since they use the same batteries I will wait a year or two and get a reconditioned M12 Fuel. Then for approximately the same price of a Fuel today I will have three tools and at least four batteries.

They usually run discounts and free battery promos for Black Friday.

 

[ddawg16]

NiCad
NiMH
Li

All different chemistry's ....I think some people are confusing batteries.

NiMH is what most laptop batteries were using until the Li stuff came out. They have about 2-3 x the power density of NiCad's but self discharge at a rate of about 4% per DAY.

For the Laptop user who is using his/her laptop daily...not a big deal...but for the power tool that sits for a week or month and gets used only on the weekend....big deal.

And...Li has about 2x or more the power density of NiHH.