Lithonia Lighting Troubles

[red vette mike]

I built a 31x54x12 garage addition the summer of '06 with much help from this fine forum. I have much enjoyed my garage where I am doing a bit of restoration work on some old muscle cars.
I bought 25 4 gang Lithonia florescent (spelling?) lights for the shop. In the 12or so months since these lights were installed I have had 10 ballasts to have failed. Lithonia is warranting the ballasts but it is a hassle to have to change them out, trade them in, etc. I paid(I think) close to $90-100 for each of these lights. I wanted those that did not hum and were of the best quality. They don't hum but many of them don't work either. These lights are not on everyday, all day. I would estimate that they are on about 6-7 hours a day, 6days a week. The garage is heated in wintertime. It has a/c but I have not run that much at all. I have several big fans that move a lot of air. Whatever is the outside temp is pretty much what it is on the inside. The fans keep it pretty comfortable and there are 4 big carriage style doors and a number of big cross-flow windows. It will get 90 degrees+ on some (many in mid-summer) days.
What do you folks think? Lithonia is waranting the ballasts but I am sick of changing them out. Think there is a fundamental problem with the ballasts? I can get the light and ballast model numbers if needed. Should I ask Lithonia for new lights? Thanks for any help.
Mike

 

[Charles (in GA)]

We shall see what they do this winter. While it might be 90 in the garage, at the level you are standing at, I'll bet its closer to 100 up where the lights are.

Are they mounted tight up to a ceiling? or are they suspended (chain or the like). They need to radiate their heat, and you would probably see much better life out of them if they were spaced an inch or so off of a ceiling (if that is how they are mounted).

These are electronic ballast, and they cannot handle excessive heat. Old magnetic ballast are much more forgiving, they are simply transformers with windings in them, but these new ones have actual electronics in them, which heat kills.

One other question, has any of the replacement ballast failed? or are you only experiencing failures of the original ballasts? Are the new ballast any different from the old ones? (one made in China, one made in Mexico? or some other apparent difference)

Charles

 

[Lloydthumper]

I would double check and make sure there is no grounding/neutral problem with the wiring first. I don't know of anything that could cause what is happening. Eventually they will quit replacing the ballast unless there is a problem that there not telling you. Have different lights failed each time or some of the same ones. They may have had a bad run on these and you bought a lot at one time and they can only replace the ones that are bad.

 

[carguy123]

Uh Oh!! I just bought about 40 of these for use in my home and shop. They haven't been installed yet. Should I return these?

Would another brand of electronic ballast be better? I will run a totally different type of light before I run a magnetic ballast. I can't stand the flicker and the hum or an regular fluorescent lamp. Especially the hum!

 

[Thomarann]

I had the same problem in a previous shop - all the lights were tight to the ceiling and every summer 4 or 5 ballasts would fail.

Once I spaced them down 1-2" from the ceiling, no more failures.

Marfc

 

[red vette mike]

Thanks for the replies. The lights are attached tight to the ceiling which is a 3/8's thick luan plyboard type material painted semi-gloss white. The ballasats are all of an elecronic type. None of the replacement ballasts have failed but there has not been enough time yet for them to fail. I think I remember the new ballasts being made in Mexico. I will have to look at the old ones to see if they were made elsewhere.
I suspect that this is a excessive heat type situation. This past summer there were a couple of weeks where the heat was just terrible. Whatever the heat is outside, it is on the inside. One day I looked at the a/c-heat thermostat and it read "05" (as in 105!) The big fans make it where it is not terribly uncomfortable but you are correct that it is hot on the ceiling (I hate to admit it but I am too cheap to run the a/c) .
I sure hate to have to go back in there and resuspend 25 fixtures. I first need to see if the replacement ballasts are going to fail also. I have just replaced the first 6 that failed (as it started to get as dark as a cave in there). I had just gotten the first 2 rows of 5 lights each back on when I noticed the light #9 on the second row had failed! It will not be too long before every one of these lights fail. I am certainly not satisfied with this situation. My application is not unusal and you would think that they would make a ballast that had some sort of insulation where this would not be a big problem. I own some small buildings and some of the old style ballasts are still working after 20 years!
Thanks for you help. This site is about the best.
Mike

 

[malibu101]

What does Lithonia say about mounting them tight to the ceiling?

 

[red vette mike]

I have not talked with them yet. I feel sure that they have some sort of customer service line as they are a big outfit. I am going to call and will let you know what they say.

 

[Vicious_Cycle]

My lights are less than a year old and are used somewhat sparingly, so I have yet to see a ballast failure.

However, my AM/FM radio is absolutely worthless once I turn on these lights. I'm not happy about that!

 

[carguy123]

I just spoke to my electrician about these lights and he said you were all full of ****. Fluorescents were all made to be mounted high and tight and you were just a bunch of internet weirdos.

Now who do I believe? The guy who just wants to get them mounted and get out of there or you guys?

 

[Vincent Vega]

I had the same problem. I bought them at HD. They said contact Lithonia. Lithonia said contact the Ballast provider. The ballast provider(can't remember the name) shipped replacements. They are loud too. Mine work fine, they are just loud. I just turn the music up a little louder. They are a pain to replace. The price is very good for the fixtures. Around 40.00. I figure if I really need a better ballast I'll deal with that later.

 

[Franz©]

Well Carguy, unless NEC has changed, your "electrician" is full of ****!

Fluorescent ballasts have always been recognized as big heat generators, and a standoff is required from flamable surfaces. The ballast is secured to the housing to render the housing a big heatsink for the ballast.

The electrical inspector should never have signed off on the job with a plywood ceiling and fluorescents mounted tight to it.

Improper fixture mounting may well be the cause of your ballasts cooking.

 

[carguy123]

Mine haven't cooked, they aren't even installed yet. I had just bought a large number of the same fixtures and was concerned that it was a brand issue rather than a "ballasts in general" issue.

I have an unusual situation, mine will be mounted upside down facing the ceiling. Will that change anything or should I add a 1" spacer? They still were intended to be mounted directly to the sheetrock.

 

[malibu101]

I just spoke to my electrician about these lights and he said you were all full of ****. Fluorescents were all made to be mounted high and tight and you were just a bunch of internet weirdos.

Now who do I believe? The guy who just wants to get them mounted and get out of there or you guys?

I agree with him. You don't know me or (probably) any one else who's posted on this subject. Take all our advice at face value.
Don't believe him 100% just because he's a "contractor", "licensed", professional", or anything else.
Simply ask and believe what the manufacturer tells you. Yes, they are not always perfect either but they want you to be happy and them to make money.
Best of luck with the lights!!

 

[NSXSOON]

I have 24 or so of these t-8 4' 4 bulb wrapped fixtures in my garage that I bought in two different lots from HD in 2005. I have had all of the balasts in one of the lots fail and none in the other. I called Lithonia and they refered me to Sylvania (the balast maker) for replacements. The guy I talked to at Sylvania told me that they "had a bad batch on ballasts from there China supplier" and that he would send me replacements for them all if I Faxed him the purchase receipts. I did so and a week later 24 new balasts arrivied. I have changed out all of the 1st lot balasts with the replacement ones, some well over a year ago now, and none of them have failed. All the fixtues from the second lot are still original and working fine so I have a bunch of spares on the shelf just in case.
It seems like there "bad lot" problem was pretty extensive from the cases sited in this thread. It still makes me mad that I paid good money for what I thought was a quality product just to have to spend me own time/labor to repair there problem with no offer of compensation from Lithonia or Sylvania. As a result I will never buy another Sylvania product (bulbs or otherwise) ever again and not that I may ever need another Lithonia product again but I will check to see whose balast it is before I do.

 

[carguy123]

China again.

 

[snorvet]

What does Lithonia say about mounting them tight to the ceiling?

I'm pretty sure my Lithonia instructions said not to install tight to the ceiling, but I did it anyway.

 

[Vicegrip]

Lithonia makes **** or near **** ballast IMO. Won't touch them for free. I deal with lighting at some point every day.
Too many years and too many lighting systems to bother with **** that makes me or one of my men go up a lift or ladder other than to relamp when it is time. Advance electronic all the way. I doubt that heat is an issue or the lights would be blinking off on as the thermals cut out, cool and reset. I have lights that ran in 120 deg steam rooms with no problems other than the "light in the loafer" boys turning them off to do god knows what.

It is not nuts to mount a light to a plywood celling. It is nuts to mount a plywood ceiling IMO. Mounting a GROUNDED Metal fixture tight to a celing means nothing. The grounding cancels any capacitance. The ballast will cycle off if too hot.

I would bite the bullet and replace them all.

BTW Home Depot has a "foreign sourced" replacement electronic ballast (I wonder where they come from? One hint, it starts with a "C") with the GE branding on it. My test set of 12 has worked fine for 2 years so far.

 

[markb1]

Well Carguy, unless NEC has changed, your "electrician" is full of ****!

Fluorescent ballasts have always been recognized as big heat generators, and a standoff is required from flamable surfaces. The ballast is secured to the housing to render the housing a big heatsink for the ballast.

The electrical inspector should never have signed off on the job with a plywood ceiling and fluorescents mounted tight to it.

Improper fixture mounting may well be the cause of your ballasts cooking.

Franz
Back-up your statement with a code reference if you can.

 

[red vette mike]

ViceGrip: You say "bite the bullet and replace them all." Do you mean all the ballasts or the fixtures themselves? Are you saying the GE ballasts are acceptable? The ballasts that are failing are Centium ICN-4P32-SC 9 (Assembled in Mexico). Are you saying that suspending the fixtures some distance away from the ceiling will not help the ballast failure situation? Thanks.

 

[Franz©]

Franz
Back-up your statement with a code reference if you can.

JUST AS SOON AS YOUR RETAINER CHECK CLEARS MARKIE.

I've got a real electrician's license, and it don't work free.

 

[malibu101]

I too have an current electrical license in the municipality that I work in that does not make me an expert in anything EVEN electrical work. So anyway, that said--
My fingers walked freely through the 05 NEC. Granted I could have missed something, but nowhere in ART.410 could I find anything about surface mounting flourescent fixtures. There are regs about mounting different types of recessed fixtures and mounting any fixture on "combustable low-density cellulose fiberboard". I was unable to find anything relevant about mounting the type of flourescent fixtures spoken about in this thread directly to plywood.
The closest thing is 410.5 but I highly doubt the that applies to this either. That's why the manufacturers put this little nubs on the back of surface mount fixtures to keep an air gap so the material the fixture is mounted to cannot reach 90° C.
I also think screwing them into plywood satisfies the catchall ART. 110.12
Please feel free to point out anything relevant NEC articles about mounting flourescent fixtures directly to plywood that I missed. I anxiously wait to learn!

 

[carguy123]

The ballasts that are failing are Centium ICN-4P32-SC 9 (Assembled in Mexico).

The ballasts I have are:

Pony NPY-120-232-LT8
Accupro AP-RC-232-1P-120-1

I didn't notice where they were assembled.

Hopefully this means I won't have the same probs.

I didn't notice the normal little nubs on the back of the casing. Maybe I'll have them add a spacer under the lights to give a little air circ room even tho that doesn't seem to be the problem with yours.

 

[markb1]

The product listing will determine whether you can surface mount and how.

Link: http://www.lithonia.com/Products/fa...y=Surface Commercials&SubCategory=Wraparounds

 

[malibu101]

The product listing will determine whether you can surface mount and how.

Link: http://www.lithonia.com/Products/fa...y=Surface Commercials&SubCategory=Wraparounds

Exactly what I said when I asked a few posts above this when I said

"What does Lithonia say about mounting them tight to the ceiling?"

Thank you for the answer right from the horse's mouth.

 

[red vette mike]

I called the toll free line for what I guess is the manufacturer of the ballasts in question on this thread. This is Centium Mfg. I talked with a tech/warranty person who told me how to go online to register my request for a warranty replacement. I have done that and the web site says to expect their response within 24-48 hours. It looks to me as if they are having a lot of requests for warranty replacements.
I told the tech about my installation/application and asked if that sounded like a excess heat problem. She said that they would want me to ship back the bad ballasts and they would test them and let me know the outcome. I plan to do just that. Thanks for the advise given through GJ.

 

[rockwithjason]

I too have an current electrical license in the municipality that I work in that does not make me an expert in anything EVEN electrical work. So anyway, that said--
My fingers walked freely through the 05 NEC. Granted I could have missed something, but nowhere in ART.410 could I find anything about surface mounting flourescent fixtures. There are regs about mounting different types of recessed fixtures and mounting any fixture on "combustable low-density cellulose fiberboard". I was unable to find anything relevant about mounting the type of flourescent fixtures spoken about in this thread directly to plywood.
The closest thing is 410.5 but I highly doubt the that applies to this either. That's why the manufacturers put this little nubs on the back of surface mount fixtures to keep an air gap so the material the fixture is mounted to cannot reach 90° C.
I also think screwing them into plywood satisfies the catchall ART. 110.12
Please feel free to point out anything relevant NEC articles about mounting flourescent fixtures directly to plywood that I missed. I anxiously wait to learn!

I call bs on that one too. I looked all over the 05 code and even called our code instructor, we couldn't find anything that forbid mounting the lights as stated. Usually the code will defer to the manufacturer's instructions on a specific device for mounting and the manufacturers will build the device to meet the most common codes. I would have to see where this is and then I will eat my words.

 

[Vicegrip]

ViceGrip: You say "bite the bullet and replace them all." Do you mean all the ballasts or the fixtures themselves? Are you saying the GE ballasts are acceptable? The ballasts that are failing are Centium ICN-4P32-SC 9 (Assembled in Mexico). Are you saying that suspending the fixtures some distance away from the ceiling will not help the ballast failure situation? Thanks.

Just the ballasts. Wire excepted the only other real working electrical parts are the tombstones and they are little more than snap connectors of a sort. Air gapping should not make any difference at all. If it is a pain to get out the ladder and tools and then dig the old ballasts out each time one craps out replace all the old ones and get it over with. The imported ones branded GE from Home Depot are about $20 each and I have had a set of 12 running 16 hours a day in a tire storage room at one of my dealers. No failures, good lumens (I measure and log candle power at startup to benchmark when to relamp a space) and good bulb life so far

I too am not a ex-spurt but have never been called to task by the inspector for mounting a fixture directly to a surface. Keep you ballasts away from ******* contests. They can short out.