Little Craftsman Mystery

[7th Kahuna]

Thursday I acquired a free table saw. From the photo I couldn't tell what I was looking at, but the original cabinet hidden within piqued my interest. Add to that I was looking for a 'temporary' saw that I could leave onsite for a project I have been working on.

Requisite Image Follows:

The original saw cabinet you see in there is an Atlas 3060. The sheet metal panels you see below it enclose a homemade steel platform. This saw weighed 155 lbs without the motor BEFORE adding the steel frame and custom steel extension wing. I'm glad the former owner stayed to help get it in the truck.

Anyhow, the question.

The front gear rail, which is not original to the saw (the whole fence assy was 'remade') sports a part number of C-101-3-6305. I recognized that as a likely Craftsman part number and also that the 101 would be the prefix for a Craftsman badged Atlas saw. Now this made some sort of sense given that it had been affixed to an Atlas badged Atlas saw of a similar age. (In the past I have noted King-Seeley parts similarly beginning with a '103'.) What didn't make sense was that I didn't think Atlas was making saws for Craftsman in the 50's. A little quick research and sure enough, that part number is associated with a Craftsman Model 100 table saw, specifically 113.27610 which would be a Craftsman badged Emerson Electric saw. Does anyone know if this is just a Craftsman hiccup or is there a connection between Atlas and Emerson that I am missing?

 

[Outlawmws]

Hard to tel without a front pic of the fence rail. Emerson/King-Seeley used a geared fence rail on their saws for the 10" models (not on the smaller saws...)

The motor mount does NOT look like a KS however...

Better and more pics please!

 

[7th Kahuna]

Outlaw, I'll grab a picture of the fence and rail so you can see what I am looking at. I have already removed them and they have no relevance to the original Atlas table saw itself. Though the front logo had long since been removed to make way for a switch box, the original Atlas model and serial number tag remained hidden on the side. There is no doubt what this saw began life as. The motor mount is definitely original Atlas as well. The PO installed a 2hp motor on it that must have been causing some issues. One of the screws that locks the mount 'extensions' was tightened down so hard it snapped off inside the main casting. Going to be fun to get out. I have decided against investing much time in this poor saw. I think it turned a corner and reached a point of no return a good number of years ago.

My curiosity was mostly with regard to the part numbers. I am aware that Emerson was making a limited number of tools for Craftsman even during the KS years. I just found it odd that an apparently Emerson made part would have a 101 part number prefix. Could Atlas have sold Emerson the design?

Stay tuned for the pictures.

 

[jakemac]

Could Atlas have sold Emerson the design

It might be more likely that Emerson was sourcing parts from Atlas to meet Craftsman's design requirements and to make the contract cost effective. They may have only manufactured the cases and a other few parts, filling in the rest of the parts by outsourcing.

 

[7th Kahuna]

It might be more likely that Emerson was sourcing parts from Atlas to meet Craftsman's design requirements and to make the contract cost effective. They may have only manufactured the cases and a other few parts, filling in the rest of the parts by outsourcing.

Outsourcing in the 50's?! Say it isn't so.

The idea has potential, except it still should have carried an Emerson prefix since that would have been Sears' source for the parts.



So here are a couple of pictures of the fence and rail. Sorry about the quality. I was rushing to beat the sunset. I also included a sample photo of the Emerson saw I have identified as the original source.

And a sample Atlas 3060 with the proper fence, obviously not mine. Apparently front center is a popular place for the switch. The screw holes for my Atlas logo were adapted to secure the wiring.

 

[Outlawmws]

OK the front Fence rail and fence are defiantly KS, and so is the base, from the front at least. and yes a 10" saw.

Is that the same saw? Where is the table extension?

 

[Outlawmws]

Outlaw, I'll grab a picture of the fence and rail so you can see what I am looking at. I have already removed them and they have no relevance to the original Atlas table saw itself. Though the front logo had long since been removed to make way for a switch box, the original Atlas model and serial number tag remained hidden on the side. There is no doubt what this saw began life as. The motor mount is definitely original Atlas as well. The PO installed a 2hp motor on it that must have been causing some issues. One of the screws that locks the mount 'extensions' was tightened down so hard it snapped off inside the main casting. Going to be fun to get out. I have decided against investing much time in this poor saw. I think it turned a corner and reached a point of no return a good number of years ago.

My curiosity was mostly with regard to the part numbers. I am aware that Emerson was making a limited number of tools for Craftsman even during the KS years. I just found it odd that an apparently Emerson made part would have a 101 part number prefix. Could Atlas have sold Emerson the design?

Stay tuned for the pictures.

Actually it's far more perverse than that:

103 for sears (Craftsman dunlap et. al...):

1933-44 -Central Specialty Ann Arbor, MI; Ypsilanti, MI - also: Central Specialty Division, a division of King-Seeley Corp.)

1944-1964 - King-Seeley Corp.-Central Specialty Division, Ann Arbor, MI; Ypsilanti, MI - Later aquired by Emerson - see 113..

113 prefix: 1948-98 - Emerson Electric Co. - bought KSC in 1964...

 

[7th Kahuna]

OK the front Fence rail and fence are defiantly KS, and so is the base, from the front at least. and yes a 10" saw.

Is that the same saw? Where is the table extension?

No, not the same saw. Sorry, that first photo was what I received from the previous owner. I forgot to take pictures myself, not that you could have seen much of anything from the front either. It was wrapped in plywood used to house the power switch. The whole thing is in pieces now. One of these days I'm going to remember to pick up the camera before the screwdriver.

I initially thought KS too, but what makes you think KS if the model is 113.xxxxx?

I knew I had read this somewhere. OWWM.org ...
"Starting in 1948 (and perhaps earlier) they made a few woodworking machines for Sears Roebuck. For example, the 1948 Craftsman catalog features the Model 100 tablesaw as "Emerson saws"; examples of this saw have model numbers beginning with 113, which corresponds to Emerson Electric Co."

Did KS make this saw too?

 

[Outlawmws]

No, not the same saw. Sorry, that first photo was what I received from the previous owner. I forgot to take pictures myself, not that you could have seen much of anything from the front either. It was wrapped in plywood used to house the power switch. The whole thing is in pieces now. One of these days I'm going to remember to pick up the camera before the screwdriver.

I initially thought KS too, but what makes you think KS if the model is 113.xxxxx?

I knew I had read this somewhere. OWWM.org ...
"Starting in 1948 (and perhaps earlier) they made a few woodworking machines for Sears Roebuck. For example, the 1948 Craftsman catalog features the Model 100 tablesaw as "Emerson saws"; examples of this saw have model numbers beginning with 113, which corresponds to Emerson Electric Co."

Did KS make this saw too?

Because every time I see that dang tooled pattern that appears on so many of the Sears tool fleet, I automatically think KS, not to mention the incestuous relationship the companies had. my mistake...

Now lets not confuse the "Model 100" (And 80, and 150...) with the prefix on the "model no." of the tools. The "Model 80, 100, 150 (and others) were marketing model numbers. The prefix to the chassis "model No." is a manufactures index, and not connected with the marketing Model no.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Confusion, what confusion?!

One number for the part 113.xxxxx (and of course the sub-assemblies), another for the model 100, 80, etc., and yet another for the inventory system 9.xxxxxxxx.

How can a company that lead the way in so many respects have come up with such a system? I guess it is not uncommon for the leaders to layer new ideas, but odd that they still operate that way, or so I believe.

So, this is going to be interesting. I'm going to have to go pull some old Craftsman parts lists and see if this mis-match appears anywhere else. On the other hand, there is enough similarity between the innards of the 113.xxxxx model and the Atlas 30xx model that I wouldn't be entirely surprised to find out that Emerson had inherited 'the new design' from Atlas when Craftsman's table saw production switched facilities.

I wonder what the story was behind the change. Unlike other switches, Atlas didn't get out of the table saw business when they lost the contract with Sear's, they continued to produce under the Atlas name. Nor did the two companies cut ties as Sears continued to purchase Atlas lathes for years.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Do you have any tips for drilling out the snapped locking screw? Do I dare drill it by hand or do I need a drill press? Looks like a 1/4" bolt.

 

[Outlawmws]

Pics of the victim? the steadier you can come at it the better of course. but I'd start with some light heat and penatrant. Kroil or the AFT acetone 50-50 mix, (shake well before playing...)

And get a left hand drill, often you can pop it out with the drill alone...

Is this into steel, cast iron or aluminum?

 

[7th Kahuna]

You would probably know better than I. By default I would say cast iron but I suppose it could have been semi-steel. Not sure if they used semi-steel for parts like this or not. I wouldn't expect the bolt to have been anything very hard. For a bench top saw, the amount of metal in this thing is pretty impressive. It has a really nice feel aside from the handwheels which, though solid metal, are simply too small.

The bolt snapped off following the bottom of the thread so it's flush on one side and just below on the other.

Funny you said left hand drill and for a moment I thought left hand drill motor, 'haven't seen one of those' oh wait, reverse, but seriously, where do I find a left hand bit? Never occurred to me such a thing existed. Australia?

 

[Outlawmws]

OK, probably CI. Penatrent ASAP so it has time to work.

LH bits, probably Google for what is nearest you. But they are much more available that previously. You can even get EZ-out sets with the proper LH drills included.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Thanks Outlaw. I'll give it a go.