Load Center choices

[TiredDude]

OK, so I have decided to have my circa 1960 150amp Federal Pacific Stab-lok box replaced.

I am in Louisville, KY. The box is outside.

1st bid is $1736 for 200amp service through a CH BR 40 slot 40 circuit installation, grounding, and replacing everything from box to electric company connections.

Going to have a second company look at this on Monday.

Couple questions -

1 - Is this a good box choice? Is a 40 slot 40 circuit box better than say a 20 slot 40 circuit or 30 slot 40 circuit box? Or is it irrelavant? Why?

2 - I asked the first company about installing AFCI breakers as I would like to be as safe as I can and I have a wife and baby girl that I want to protect. His answer was that AFCI isn't required for existing installations (which I knew) and that I would likely have a lot of nuisance trips (which I wasn't aware of) What do you think? Does AFCI provide much extra safety? Do they really nuisance trip alot? Are they worth the extra costs and potential nuisance?

Thanks for any input....

 

[pattenp]

IMHO I'd take the 40/40. As to the AFCI you need to check with your AHJ. 2011 NEC requires AFCI on certain circuits if the circuit wiring is modified. It depends on the code cycle your AHJ is on and their interpretation of wiring modification as to whether putting in new over current protection is a triggering requirement.

 

[TiredDude]

IMHO I'd take the 40/40. As to the AFCI you need to check with your AHJ. 2011 NEC requires AFCI on certain circuits if the circuit wiring is modified. It depends on the code cycle your AHJ is on and their interpretation of wiring modification as to whether putting in new over current protection is a triggering requirement.

Yeah, to me 40/40 sounds better but I am ignorant in this regard.

Local code doesn't require AFCI in this case per my research and per the electrician (large established nad reputable company).

 

[pattenp]

The 20/40 or 30/40 takes the tandem breakers to get more circuits than actual spaces for full size breakers. I'd just as soon have the full size panel and not deal with tandems.

 

[cowboyjosh]

I hate tandem breakers. As far as load centers go the Eaton BR isn't too bad; my EC has used them in many of the custom homes I have built, some folks go with the Square D QO upgrade, which is more robust and is commercial grade.

 

[TiredDude]

I hate tandem breakers. As far as load centers go the Eaton BR isn't too bad; my EC has used them in many of the custom homes I have built, some folks go with the Square D QO upgrade, which is more robust and is commercial grade.

Yeah, just in the small amount of reading I have done it seems like people like the Square D stuff.

It will be interesting to see what company 2 proposes.

 

[TiredDude]

The 20/40 or 30/40 takes the tandem breakers to get more circuits than actual spaces for full size breakers. I'd just as soon have the full size panel and not deal with tandems.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if there was some benefit to tandem breakers. I guess it just comes down to getting more circuits into a smaller box?

My box location has plenty of room, so in that case, the bigger the better I suppose.

 

[Gooch]

The problem with using AFCI on a panel change-out is that if any circuits are sharing neutrals you won't be able to make it work.(someone might make a 2 pole AFCI, but good luck finding one)

 

[TiredDude]

The problem with using AFCI on a panel change-out is that if any circuits are sharing neutrals you won't be able to make it work.(someone might make a 2 pole AFCI, but good luck finding one)

Yeah, I guess my house my have some circuits that wont work, but I guess I can get a AFCI and try it on individual circuits. At least protect the ones that I can I suppose.

 

[cowboyjosh]

The problem with using AFCI on a panel change-out is that if any circuits are sharing neutrals you won't be able to make it work.(someone might make a 2 pole AFCI, but good luck finding one)

Siemens makes a MWBC Arc Fault breaker; but I'd rather NOT have AFCI protection then to have a SIEMENS panel. I like my SQD products with EATON / CH being a close second.

 

[Norcal]

AFCI's are snake oil, code requires them so they have to be used, I would not use them if not required.


BTW the 2014 NEC will require AFCI's everywhere except bathrooms & garages.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah, I guess my house my have some circuits that wont work, but I guess I can get a AFCI and try it on individual circuits. At least protect the ones that I can I suppose.

Do u know what an AFCI protects against? Arcing faults! Arcing faults are rare compared to ground faults. How many instances have u had with a frayed and shorted lamp cord. Im guessing slim to none!

If u are concerned about safety, make sure u have GFCIs in the required/necessary locations- baths, kitchens, laundry room near sinks, outside, etc!

Im another sparky which feels that AFCIs are snake oil! Industry pushes(or lobbies, whatever u want to call it) for codes to be passed that require the use of their products under the guise of safety, so they can make money hand over fist. Yes folks! Sorry to burst your bubble! Greed has entered the building codes world!

 

[TiredDude]

Do u know what an AFCI protects against? Arcing faults! Arcing faults are rare compared to ground faults. How many instances have u had with a frayed and shorted lamp cord. Im guessing slim to none!

If u are concerned about safety, make sure u have GFCIs in the required/necessary locations- baths, kitchens, laundry room near sinks, outside, etc!

Im another sparky which feels that AFCIs are snake oil! Industry pushes(or lobbies, whatever u want to call it) for codes to be passed that require the use of their products under the guise of safety, so they can make money hand over fist. Yes folks! Sorry to burst your bubble! Greed has entered the building codes world!

I understand that the arc faults could be caused by damaged or loose wiring in sockets, light receptacles, junction boxes or in walls. Additionally the AFCIs will trip if there are wiring errors such as false grounds/crossed grounds etc. Given the age of house, maybe there would be some value in having them where I can.

I don't doubt that money and greed have played a role in getting them required though.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I understand that the arc faults could be caused by damaged or loose wiring in sockets, light receptacles, junction boxes or in walls. Additionally the AFCIs will trip if there are wiring errors such as false grounds/crossed grounds etc. Given the age of house, maybe there would be some value in having them where I can.

I don't doubt that money and greed have played a role in getting them required though.

Huh? No. False grounds and crossed grounds wouldnt cause an AFCI to trip because grounds dont carry current under normal conditions. And the only time they do carry current is when there is a ground fault such as a motor winding shorting to the motor housing.

 

[TiredDude]

Huh? No. False grounds and crossed grounds wouldnt cause an AFCI to trip because grounds dont carry current under normal conditions. And the only time they do carry current is when there is a ground fault such as a motor winding shorting to the motor housing.

I have read it several places - maybe I am not phrasing it correctly -

Example from Mike Holt - "If there is a neutral-to-ground connection on the load side of the circuit breaker, the breaker will not trip until a load has been applied, whereas a GFCI, even without load, will not operate until the neutral-to-ground connection has been removed.
What occurs is that the electrician leaves the property after installing and turning the devices on, then the homeowner calls two hours later complaining that there is no power. Trouble-shooting determines that as soon as a load is applied, the AFCI trips because of a faulty neutral-to-ground connection on the load side of the device."

From AFCI Questions and Answers - Mike Holt - InterNACHI Inspection Forum http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/afci-questions-and-answers-mike-holt-5914/#ixzz2fVM4S2H0


And another = http://www.phillylicensedelectrician.com/troubleshooting-afci-breaker-tripping/

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I have read it several places - maybe I am not phrasing it correctly -

Example from Mike Holt - "If there is a neutral-to-ground connection on the load side of the circuit breaker, the breaker will not trip until a load has been applied, whereas a GFCI, even without load, will not operate until the neutral-to-ground connection has been removed.
What occurs is that the electrician leaves the property after installing and turning the devices on, then the homeowner calls two hours later complaining that there is no power. Trouble-shooting determines that as soon as a load is applied, the AFCI trips because of a faulty neutral-to-ground connection on the load side of the device."

From AFCI Questions and Answers - Mike Holt - InterNACHI Inspection Forum http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/afci-questions-and-answers-mike-holt-5914/#ixzz2fVM4S2H0


And another = http://www.phillylicensedelectrician.com/troubleshooting-afci-breaker-tripping/

Apples and oranges Dude! In post #13, u said 'crossed grounds'. And the stuff u linked to talks about line to neutral arcing faults and false grounds, which yes u did mention(i should have been more clear on what i was highlighting)! If 2 ground wires are crossed or connected, an AFCI wont care.

 

[matt151617]

I had the exact same situation as you- I had a Federal Pacific panel I wanted replaced, and the electrician recommended a Cutler-Hammer BR series panel. The line coming in was fine, so it was a straight swap. I paid him $1,100 for parts and labor, and had to pay another $150 for an inspection.

He took care of pulling the permit and contacting the electric company to pull the meter. They wouldn't replace the meter until the inspector signed off on it. It took him about 4 hours, and I rented a generator for the day so the sump pump and fridge would keep running.

After putting a 100 amp panel into my garage, I feel that I could have definitely done the job myself, but not in 4 hours, and the inspection wouldn't have been so smooth.

Also, I was exempt from the AFCI breaker requirement because the panel was being "repaired". I'm glad because those breakers run about $60 each instead of $3 for the regular ones.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Frequently a larger load center will actually sell for LESS than a smaller unit, if purchased at a "big box store". So the list price of a BR4040 is probably over $100 more than a BR2040, but in reality they are a lot closer. Also frequently the larger panel will be sold with several breakers, which can save a lot, if that is where your electrician purchase it and passes the savings on to you ! Also, exterior rated load centers are not as popular as interior. Make sure you are getting the proper one.

At my son's house, someone replaced the original fuse(?) box with a 200A GE load center. It obviously came with 20A breakers because that was what was installed, even though all of the original wiring used 14 gauge wire. I swapped in 15A breaker and used the 20A breakers for new lines for the remodeled bathrooms and kitchen.

 

[TiredDude]

Apples and oranges Dude! In post #13, u said 'crossed grounds'. And the stuff u linked to talks about line to neutral arcing faults and false grounds, which yes u did mention(i should have been more clear on what i was highlighting)! If 2 ground wires are crossed or connected, an AFCI wont care.

Yeah, my bad, I mean neutral crossing a ground (what I called a false/crossed ground). I don't know the proper terms.

 

[TiredDude]

I had the exact same situation as you- I had a Federal Pacific panel I wanted replaced, and the electrician recommended a Cutler-Hammer BR series panel. The line coming in was fine, so it was a straight swap. I paid him $1,100 for parts and labor, and had to pay another $150 for an inspection.

He took care of pulling the permit and contacting the electric company to pull the meter. They wouldn't replace the meter until the inspector signed off on it. It took him about 4 hours, and I rented a generator for the day so the sump pump and fridge would keep running.

After putting a 100 amp panel into my garage, I feel that I could have definitely done the job myself, but not in 4 hours, and the inspection wouldn't have been so smooth.

Also, I was exempt from the AFCI breaker requirement because the panel was being "repaired". I'm glad because those breakers run about $60 each instead of $3 for the regular ones.

Your price seems a bit better than my first quote, but I he is quoting adding at least one ground rod, and I think my service entrance as well. And includes the permit/inspection. So - probably ball park.

 

[matt151617]

Your price seems a bit better than my first quote, but I he is quoting adding at least one ground rod, and I think my service entrance as well. And includes the permit/inspection. So - probably ball park.

He was also a friend of a friend that was willing to do it a bit cheaper; he was an electrician for the town and took a vacation day to work on my house, so he was getting paid twice.

 

[TiredDude]

OK, bid 2 came in - higher- at $1840. They are using a Seimans box. Any preference between CH- BR and a Seimans?

 

[Norcal]

Siemens is my 2nd choice after Cutler-Hammer, CH.

 

[TiredDude]

Siemens is my 2nd choice after Cutler-Hammer, CH.

Well, I am a bit disappointed in the pricing on the second (Siemens) bid. It came in higher than the first bid (CH-BR) and I was hoping for a deal from the second place as I was referred to them by a friend that owns a commercial electric company and told to drop his name.

Doesn't seem to have worked.

Thinking about checking out some of the craigslist adds from claimed master electricians.

May be able to get a Square D QO for less than these guys are asking. What do you all think?

 

[2ManyProjects]

Thinking about checking out some of the craigslist adds from claimed master electricians.

May be able to get a Square D QO for less than these guys are asking. What do you all think?

I think that if a "Master Electrician" has to resort to trolling Craigslist for customers, you probably want to hire someone else.

 

[TiredDude]

I think that if a "Master Electrician" has to resort to trolling Craigslist for customers, you probably want to hire someone else.

Sounded like he was looking to make some money moonlighting from his regular gig.

Is that unusual? I thought it was common for electricians to do work on the side for extra money.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sounded like he was looking to make some money moonlighting from his regular gig.

Is that unusual? I thought it was common for electricians to do work on the side for extra money.

Nope not unusual. Ive done it before and several of the ECs I know do it. Just check his license and go from there!

 

[TiredDude]

Nope not unusual. Ive done it before and several of the ECs I know do it. Just check his license and go from there!

Thanks.

He posted his license # and it does check out - at least there is a licensed ME with that license number listed. I will contact him and see if it is a viable option.

 

[eddie1278]

Do u know what an AFCI protects against? Arcing faults! Arcing faults are rare compared to ground faults. How many instances have u had with a frayed and shorted lamp cord. Im guessing slim to none!

If u are concerned about safety, make sure u have GFCIs in the required/necessary locations- baths, kitchens, laundry room near sinks, outside, etc!

Im another sparky which feels that AFCIs are snake oil! Industry pushes(or lobbies, whatever u want to call it) for codes to be passed that require the use of their products under the guise of safety, so they can make money hand over fist. Yes folks! Sorry to burst your bubble! Greed has entered the building codes world!

Lots of misinformation on this board from non electricians... I am an electrician. The newer AFCI breakers are combination that protect from arc faults and ground faults. Arc faults are rare? Arc faults are very common from poor connections on devices like outlets and switches. I cant tell you how many burned up devices I replace because of arcing. When a screw is loose on an outlet the wire will arc. People plugging things in and out make it worse. You seem to think the AFCIs are designed just to protect what you plug in to the outlets which is wrong. They are more to protect the wiring system in the house.

And to answer the OPs questions a 40/40 panel means 40 spaces are available for 40 circuits. A 30/40 means 30 spaces are available but you can put 40 circuits in the panel with the use of tandem/twin breakers.

Also Cutler Hammer/Eaton makes excellent quality products and that is what I recommend. But I install the CH series not the BR the CH is much better and uses a solid 1 piece copper buss bar. The BR series uses aluminum buss bars and the BR style breakers don't fit nice and tight as the CH breakers do.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Lots of misinformation on this board from non electricians... I am an electrician. The newer AFCI breakers are combination that protect from arc faults and ground faults. Arc faults are rare? Arc faults are very common from poor connections on devices like outlets and switches. I cant tell you how many burned up devices I replace because of arcing. When a screw is loose on an outlet the wire will arc. People plugging things in and out make it worse. You seem to think the AFCIs are designed just to protect what you plug in to the outlets which is wrong. They are more to protect the wiring system in the house.

And to answer the OPs questions a 40/40 panel means 40 spaces are available for 40 circuits. A 30/40 means 30 spaces are available but you can put 40 circuits in the panel with the use of tandem/twin breakers.

Also Cutler Hammer/Eaton makes excellent quality products and that is what I recommend. But I install the CH series not the BR the CH is much better and uses a solid 1 piece copper buss bar. The BR series uses aluminum buss bars and the BR style breakers don't fit nice and tight as the CH breakers do.

Ive been doing service work for several years and have rarely dound a device burned up because of a bad connection. Guess the ECs that did the work before me did a better job on their connections. Yes, Im aware they also protect the wiring. Just hardly see bad wire connections.

 

[pattenp]

Speaking of misinformation..... Combination Arc Fault breakers are not called combination because they also provide GFCI. They are called combination because they detect both parallel arcing and series arcing. A combination AFCI breaker does not provide ground fault protection.

Lots of misinformation on this board from non electricians... I am an electrician. The newer AFCI breakers are combination that protect from arc faults and ground faults. Arc faults are rare? Arc faults are very common from poor connections on devices like outlets and switches. I cant tell you how many burned up devices I replace because of arcing. When a screw is loose on an outlet the wire will arc. People plugging things in and out make it worse. You seem to think the AFCIs are designed just to protect what you plug in to the outlets which is wrong. They are more to protect the wiring system in the house.

And to answer the OPs questions a 40/40 panel means 40 spaces are available for 40 circuits. A 30/40 means 30 spaces are available but you can put 40 circuits in the panel with the use of tandem/twin breakers.

Also Cutler Hammer/Eaton makes excellent quality products and that is what I recommend. But I install the CH series not the BR the CH is much better and uses a solid 1 piece copper buss bar. The BR series uses aluminum buss bars and the BR style breakers don't fit nice and tight as the CH breakers do.

 

[eddie1278]

Ive been doing service work for several years and have rarely dound a device burned up because of a bad connection. Guess the ECs that did the work before me did a better job on their connections. Yes, Im aware they also protect the wiring. Just hardly see bad wire connections.

My business is focused on residential service work. Happens all the time mostly with the backwired/stab locked outlets.

 

[eddie1278]

Speaking of misinformation..... Combination Arc Fault breakers are not called combination because they also provide GFCI. They are called combination because they detect parallel arcing and series arcing. A combination AFCI breaker does not provide fround fault protection.

Tell me where I gave misinformation. I was responding to the guy that said AFCIs only detect arc faults.

I know what AFCIs do I would hope I do being an electrician but thanks troll.

 

[TiredDude]

While I would like AFCI breakers, both companies that I have had look at my box have sort of steered me away from them.

I wonder if the real issue is not that the AFCIs don't work reliably but instead the issue is that with older houses there are likely many wiring peculiarities that will make trouble shooting a bit-ch to track down and could lead to unhappy customers.

 

[pattenp]

AFCI breakers do only detect arc faults. Why did you also say ground faults? When you said ground fault I'm thinking you are saying the combination AFCI breaker also provides the same protection as a GFCI breaker. And thanks for calling me a troll, is that how you respond when someone disagrees with you.

Tell me where I gave misinformation. I was responding to the guy that said AFCIs only detect arc faults.

I know what AFCIs do I would hope I do being an electrician but thanks troll.

 

[eddie1278]

AFCI breakers do only detect arc faults. Why did you also say ground faults? When you said ground fault I'm thinking you are saying the combination AFCI breaker also provides the same protection as a GFCI breaker. And thanks for calling me a troll, is that how you respond when someone disagrees with you.

I called you a troll because you flat out told me I am giving misinformation. You didn't disagree you were arguing.

Anyway the combination AFCIs offer ground fault protection down to about 30 ma for equipment protection. Not the same protection a GFI does down to 5ma for people protection but it is ground fault protection.

 

[eddie1278]

While I would like AFCI breakers, both companies that I have had look at my box have sort of steered me away from them.

I wonder if the real issue is not that the AFCIs don't work reliably but instead the issue is that with older houses there are likely many wiring peculiarities that will make trouble shooting a bit-ch to track down and could lead to unhappy customers.

Common nuisance tripping is from using high power vacuum cleaners and exercise equipment like treadmills. If you hate vacuuming get them then

We went over 100 years without them and civilization is still here.

 

[pattenp]

I'm sorry my saying misinformation upset you. To me your wording was misleading. The reason the newer AFCI's are called combination is because they detect both parallel arcing and series arcing. The ground fault you're stating is parallel arcing.

I called you a troll because you flat out told me I am giving misinformation. You didn't disagree you were arguing.

Anyway the combination AFCIs offer ground fault protection down to about 30 ma for equipment protection. Not the same protection a GFI does down to 5ma for people protection but it is ground fault protection.

 

[eddie1278]

I'm sorry my saying misinformation upset you. To me your wording was misleading. The reason the newer AFCI's are called combination is because they detect both parallel arcing and series arcing. The ground fault you're stating is parallel arcing.

You are preaching to the choir you are preaching to the choir. I have to go to bed now no time to explain in further detail to you.

 

[pattenp]

I'm sorry you are apparently taking this discussion as a challenge to your knowledge. That's not my intention, just trying to clarify what you meant. No further explanation is needed. Have a good night.

You are preaching to the choir you are preaching to the choir. I have to go to bed now no time to explain in further detail to you.