Load Center choices

[wyliesdiesels]

My business is focused on residential service work. Happens all the time mostly with the backwired/stab locked outlets.

Most of the bad backstabbs i see have the wire pooped out of the outlet loose in the box. The spring finally gave out on the outlet but the outlet wasnt melted!

BTW- Many of the ECs on here including myself think AFCIs are snake oil...I dont bother with them unless Im required by code to put em in and some of my customers go back after inspection and swap them out on their own cause they dont like 'em either!

Ive read of several people having issues with plasma TVs and AFCIs nuissance tripping. The end result was the AFCI got replaced by a standard breaker, problem solved!

 

[Kevin C]

The discussion got me curious; this is what I learned.

AFCI and Ground Fault Protection
There continues to be confusion as to the term “Combination” Arc Fault Circuit
Interrupter. “Combination” does not mean there is both arc fault and Class A ground fault
protection in the device. Combination refers to parallel as well as low current (series) arc
detection.
The Branch-Feeder and the Combination Type Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters both have
equipment level ground fault circuit protection (30mA), not the Class A type “people
protection” ground fault protection (5mA). Therefore, during the installation of an AFCI,
precautions should be taken to ensure wiring anomalies that would normally cause GFI’s
to trip (such as grounded neutrals and shared neutrals) should be avoided.

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/ct_206788.pdf

 

[2ManyProjects]

I think that if a "Master Electrician" has to resort to trolling Craigslist for customers, you probably want to hire someone else.

Sounded like he was looking to make some money moonlighting from his regular gig.

Is that unusual? I thought it was common for electricians to do work on the side for extra money.

It happens. But it is invariably a risky proposition (particularly for you) to get involved with.

Think about it... There are two basic scenarios: Either this so-called "Master Electrician" is self-employed, or he is an employee of a larger firm. (Well, I guess there is a third possibility -- i.e., "unemployed"; but from your perspective, that's effectively the same thing as him being an off-clock employee of someone else.)

If he is self-employed, and his business is doing so badly that he NEEDS to troll CraigsList for customers, what does that say about how happy his previous customers have been with his work? It reeks of a "fly by night" operation.

If he is an employee of a larger firm, working "on the side", then who exactly is carrying the Worker's Compensation, E&O insurance, bonding, etc.? Certainly not his employer, if he is not doing the job AS AN EMPLOYEE of that firm. And as an employee of that larger firm, he would not be providing these things himself. So if, while doing this little "side job", he gets hurt on YOUR property, or screws things up so badly that your house burns down, or steals your TV and your wife's jewelry while wandering around your house... What recourse do you have? Simply having a tradesman license does not cover ANY of that stuff.

 

[TiredDude]

It happens. But it is invariably a risky proposition (particularly for you) to get involved with.

Think about it... There are two basic scenarios: Either this so-called "Master Electrician" is self-employed, or he is an employee of a larger firm. (Well, I guess there is a third possibility -- i.e., "unemployed"; but from your perspective, that's effectively the same thing as him being an off-clock employee of someone else.)

If he is self-employed, and his business is doing so badly that he NEEDS to troll CraigsList for customers, what does that say about how happy his previous customers have been with his work? It reeks of a "fly by night" operation.

If he is an employee of a larger firm, working "on the side", then who exactly is carrying the Worker's Compensation, E&O insurance, bonding, etc.? Certainly not his employer, if he is not doing the job AS AN EMPLOYEE of that firm. And as an employee of that larger firm, he would not be providing these things himself. So if, while doing this little "side job", he gets hurt on YOUR property, or screws things up so badly that your house burns down, or steals your TV and your wife's jewelry while wandering around your house... What recourse do you have? Simply having a tradesman license does not cover ANY of that stuff.

I don't know. Since ads on craigslist are free, I would probably run ads there before I would the yellow pages. Who looks in the yellow pages these days? Lot of people surf craigslist. Pretty good advertising for free. Totally valid but different market than you would get with yellow page ads.

Regardless, I will definitely be requiring a permit and inspection, and in my location, you can only get a permit for your own house -you have to prove it with ID and tax bill - or you have to have a license.

I also think I would want the electrician to be insured. Otherwise, I would do it myself.

And the box is outside. He won't be wandering around in my home unless I am with him. And a ME with 15 years experience isn't going to mess things up more than whoever happens to work for ABC Electrical.

 

[TiredDude]

I think I am going to go with the company using Siemens. Now the question is - copper or aluminium bus bars for outdoor installation.

I think copper is generally better but is it true in outdoor environments?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I think I am going to go with the company using Siemens. Now the question is - copper or aluminium bus bars for outdoor installation.

I think copper is generally better but is it true in outdoor environments?

Yes!

 

[TiredDude]

Yes!

Thanks!

 

[TiredDude]

Well, it has been installed.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Cool! Got any pics?

 

[TiredDude]

Cool! Got any pics?

Here are a few...

A few notes as well-

- They said it would take about 4-5 hours. It was 11 before they left.

-They had to move the meter to the left as the new box was too tall to put the meter above (dis-advantage of the bigger box).

-The conduit rising on the left of the box carried a 220 circuit to my dining room - apparently formerly used for an air-conditioner. They did not connect that circuit to the box as I didn't want 220 there. They offered to remove the conduit but I decided to leave it so if I want to add a circuit I have conduit in place to the attic.

-There was a 30 amp circuit that we could not identify. The wires are attached but I turned the breaker off.

-The former owner's installed hot tub had two circuit that each had two hot wires twisted together. Those were separated and they tried to wire them to circuits and it blew the wires out of the breakers when they turned them on. Looked pretty iffy. They capped those wires and left them in the box. Marked the breakers as "spare".

-The left conduit entering the bottom of the box is overfilled and has one circuit on Romex. They said they didn't have to change it as it was existing equipment. I will probably have to do something with that.

-They did not bond or ground to the water. I thought it was required but they said something about the size of the grounding wire would have to be different or something like that and that as long as they had 2 grounding rods, they didn't have to use the water.

-One ground rod is next to the wall and the other is between that tree and the end of the retaining wall. They drove that one at about a 45 degree angle toward the camera view. I thought they had to go straight down.

-Hasn't been inspected yet.

 

[TiredDude]

Saw a few things that were "surprising" to me.

Example, the wires for splicing - they used NM and pulled out the individual wires. Seems inefficient timewise, I would have thought more expensive and I also thought that you needed to used marked wire, but NM doesn't have markings on the conductors?

Also, several times they wrapped wire with electrical tape to get the right color - white tape, or green tape. This again seems inefficient and expensive.

 

[Norcal]

Saw a few things that were "surprising" to me.

Example, the wires for splicing - they used NM and pulled out the individual wires. Seems inefficient timewise, I would have thought more expensive and I also thought that you needed to used marked wire, but NM doesn't have markings on the conductors?

Also, several times they wrapped wire with electrical tape to get the right color - white tape, or green tape. This again seems inefficient and expensive.

Not permitted for 6 AWG & smaller. See 200.6, 250.119(A),

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Saw a few things that were "surprising" to me.

Example, the wires for splicing - they used NM and pulled out the individual wires. Seems inefficient timewise, I would have thought more expensive and I also thought that you needed to use marked wire, but NM doesn't have markings on the conductors?

Also, several times they wrapped wire with electrical tape to get the right color - white tape, or green tape. This again seems inefficient and expensive.

You are right. If this gets inspected, u might get flagged on this and the taping!!

Also, since this is your main panel, the neutral bars should be bonded/connected to the enclosure/ground bars. The pic is too fuzy/low of a resolution to tell if this has been done!!

 

[CNGsaves]

A few notes as well-
{clip}
-They did not bond or ground to the water. I thought it was required but they said something about the size of the grounding wire would have to be different or something like that and that as long as they had 2 grounding rods, they didn't have to use the water.

-One ground rod is next to the wall and the other is between that tree and the end of the retaining wall. They drove that one at about a 45 degree angle toward the camera view. I thought they had to go straight down.

-Hasn't been inspected yet.

Better push harder on this one. Water pipes need grounded within 6 ft of entering the structure.

Sparky's can explain this better than me, but my old 1950's house does have grounded copper water pipes (but not with 6 ft of incoming service). My local electrical code REQUIRES that the ground be within 6 ft of entering the house ; thus, I'll need this fixed when I get my new panel.

Purpose of course is providing safe (least resistance) route for any shorts - - - - if water pipes are electrified, last thing you want to be doing is taking a shower and touching the handle (without a proper ground) !!! SAFETY is the reason.

The ground rods outside are lightning protection and grounding of electrical system as a whole.

 

[TiredDude]

You are right. If this gets inspected, u might get flagged on this and the taping!!

Also, since this is your main panel, the neutral bars should be bonded/connected to the enclosure/ground bars. The pic is too fuzy/low of a resolution to tell if this has been done!!

I think this shows the bonding/connection?

 

[TiredDude]

Well the inspector came today. He passed the installation. I asked him about grounding to the water and he seemed not to care. I did at least get him to investigate a bit and he did go in the crawl space to look at the set up. He said he found a clamp on the water but didn't know how/when/why it was disconnected - he tried to trace it back to the water heater but couldn't find anything there.

In the end he said I was ok with just the 2 ground rods.

He was an older fellow and it was a bit of a task for him to get to the water entry point. Came out breathing and sweating hard.

Kind of surprised he went to the trouble of checking if he wasn't going to require it???

A bit disappointed.